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Post by route53 on Apr 18, 2022 11:42:51 GMT
Biggest problem as I see it is Thamesmead north of the Spine Road (the loop working around Crossway/Bentham Road. South of the Spine Road is close to Abbey Wood station for Lizzy Line/SE trains, West Thamesmead (Broadwaters - where the 244 and 380 go) is close to the new Woolwich station and also Plumstead. The trouble really is the the Goblin line is effectively ruled out in probably all of our lifetimes now, and the Waterfront Transit bus/tram line is also now impossible because of building work : so that just leaves the DLR - and with that you potentially are robbing Beckton of part of its current service, which will not be popular. DLR is, however, the only way I can even remotely see Thamesmead getting trains in anything like short order. The positioning of the new Barking Reach pier also seems to make serving Thamesmead from that in the future very difficult. Lots of problems, and no really effective solutions apart possibly from the DLR. Bus services (and let’s assume post changes, so with extended 472 etc) are ok from the loop - most obvious connections are catered for (Woolwich, Abbey Wood, Erith, Bexleyheath all served, and served well). Major gap is Thamesmead to the west side of Bexley borough. And finally, the dear old 180 - in my experience, from the east it mainly empties at Woolwich and then refills with Charlton/Greenwich bound passengers. I would guess that end to end passengers may marginally increase in its new form of Erith to North Greenwich, but not by a huge amount. In recent years, of the 177/180 pairing, the 177 is much the stronger partner. Fact fans : with these changes it will mean that only Woolwich to Charlton will remain from the original 180 when it started. There’s quite a significant Woolwich-Greenwich passenger that uses the 180, that overlaps the Abbey Wood to Woolwich/Charlton and the Charlton to Lewisham passengers I seriously doubt many people in Erith will head to North Greenwich once they see how much time can be saved just by going to Abbey Wood to head to Canary Wharf, the City, the West End and Stratford (via a change at Whitechapel) at the most they’ll head to Charlton for the shops but isn’t Belvedere getting a similar type of retail park? |
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Post by danorak on Apr 18, 2022 11:53:48 GMT
I don't see the necessity in a X53 at this stage, especially over linking an area with poor longer length links like Thamesmead, which is why it's odd TfL is potentially trialing such a thing rather than linking an area like Thamesmead instead. The X53 will run into issues like what stops you serve, traffic whereas with a X177, you can at least skip substantial sections of the route a la X68 to get Thamesmead residents into Central London territory. Until road planners take reducing traffic far more seriously rather than partaking in silly schemes like LTN's that bring few benefits for buses, Inner London limited stop routes won't work and the focus should be on the X68 style service with a substantial express section getting people from the poor transport linked area to Central London or whatever final destination is required. The X177 does make more sense for Thamesmead, however seeing as TfL made cuts to the 25 because it parallels CrossRail, I can’t see them green lighting a X177 for the fact that it parallels the Greenwich line for much of its route, an X53 or whatever you want to name this express route would have to not parallel a railway line in such a blatant way, pretty sure TfL made this clear in the Report, an X53 could potentially run fast from Blackheath to Elephant or as a stop gap for the Bakerloo line, have the X53 run to Lewisham then non stop, besides, wouldn’t an X177 be caught up in the single lane traffic because of the bike lane from Woolwich to Greenwich A restored 177E would effectively end up as an X53 anyway, given that the traffic on the 'lower road' is usually far worse than through Charlton and [edit] Blackheath [/edit]. That's one of the reasons the 53X and 177E merged into the X53 in the 90s. It seems extremely unlikely that, having spent billions providing a fast rail line to Central London from Abbey Wood, TfL would now lay on an express service from Thamesmead after cutting it when the Jubilee Line opened. Good local feeders into Abbey Wood are surely the best way forward. |
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 18, 2022 12:15:41 GMT
There’s quite a significant Woolwich-Greenwich passenger that uses the 180, Certainly not denying that : but most will catch the first bus that arrives. Abbey Wood Station to Woolwich/Charlton is still to be the 180’s remit. 177 covers the majority of the rest of this post changes. It’s a bit of a shame that Lower Charlton to Lewisham will now involve a change of bus, but the advantages of the 180 change far outweighs the disadvantages, and the 129 isn’t that far away for some. The area of West Street in Erith and much of Lower Belvedere is not massively well off - I think you’ll be surprised how many will take advantage of a cheaper fare to go from North Greenwich. Belvedere already has a small retail park with a Lidl, Starbucks, Screwfix and a Travelodge so you can have a lovely week’s holiday in Belvedere 😂 |
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Post by route53 on Apr 18, 2022 12:31:24 GMT
There’s quite a significant Woolwich-Greenwich passenger that uses the 180, Certainly not denying that : but most will catch the first bus that arrives. Abbey Wood Station to Woolwich/Charlton is still to be the 180’s remit. 177 covers the majority of the rest of this post changes. It’s a bit of a shame that Lower Charlton to Lewisham will now involve a change of bus, but the advantages of the 180 change far outweighs the disadvantages, and the 129 isn’t that far away for some. The area of West Street in Erith and much of Lower Belvedere is not massively well off - I think you’ll be surprised how many will take advantage of a cheaper fare to go from North Greenwich. Belvedere already has a small retail park with a Lidl, Starbucks, Screwfix and a Travelodge so you can have a lovely week’s holiday in Belvedere 😂 We can agree to disagree about the 180. Isn’t CrossRail’s fares going to be as cheap as the tube? Either way people will soon realise they’d rather hop on a empty CrossRail train than be stuck in traffic for 20-30 mins along the Woolwich Road then cram onto a busy and crowded Jubilee line train. Never realised Belvedere’s retail park had expanded that much! I know there was (or maybe used to be) a B&Q built in the early 2000s which used to be some marshy type of place where there were horses on the land!. Thamesmead is being completely regenerated in the same manner as the Ferrier Estate was - now Kidbrooke Village! (Can see where this is going out with the poor and in with the yuppies!) I’m sure there will be some transportation changes will effect that area in years to come, it’s a pity they’re building the Silvertown tunnel because a Thamesmead crossing would have been much better and would have linked communities this end of the Thames and might’ve have alleviated the need for a rail link as such. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 18, 2022 12:36:28 GMT
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 18, 2022 12:51:40 GMT
Certainly not denying that : but most will catch the first bus that arrives. Abbey Wood Station to Woolwich/Charlton is still to be the 180’s remit. 177 covers the majority of the rest of this post changes. It’s a bit of a shame that Lower Charlton to Lewisham will now involve a change of bus, but the advantages of the 180 change far outweighs the disadvantages, and the 129 isn’t that far away for some. The area of West Street in Erith and much of Lower Belvedere is not massively well off - I think you’ll be surprised how many will take advantage of a cheaper fare to go from North Greenwich. Belvedere already has a small retail park with a Lidl, Starbucks, Screwfix and a Travelodge so you can have a lovely week’s holiday in Belvedere 😂 We can agree to disagree about the 180. Isn’t CrossRail’s fares going to be as cheap as the tube? Either way people will soon realise they’d rather hop on a empty CrossRail train than be stuck in traffic for 20-30 mins along the Woolwich Road then cram onto a busy and crowded Jubilee line train. Never realised Belvedere’s retail park had expanded that much! I know there was (or maybe used to be) a B&Q built in the early 2000s which used to be some marshy type of place where there were horses on the land!. Thamesmead is being completely regenerated in the same manner as the Ferrier Estate was - now Kidbrooke Village! (Can see where this is going out with the poor and in with the yuppies!) I’m sure there will be some transportation changes will effect that area in years to come, it’s a pity they’re building the Silvertown tunnel because a Thamesmead crossing would have been much better and would have linked communities this end of the Thames and might’ve have alleviated the need for a rail link as such. The B&Q (and Asda) are still there - that’s a separate retail park next to Belvedere Station. Many years back, that used to be the home ground of Erith and Belvedere FC. I do agree that there will be plenty of footfall to/from Erith/Abbey Wood : I just feel that you will be surprised at the numbers going to/from North Greenwich directly on the 180. Don’t forget of course that North Greenwich is very much a destination in itself. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 18, 2022 13:20:41 GMT
The X177 does make more sense for Thamesmead, however seeing as TfL made cuts to the 25 because it parallels CrossRail, I can’t see them green lighting a X177 for the fact that it parallels the Greenwich line for much of its route, an X53 or whatever you want to name this express route would have to not parallel a railway line in such a blatant way, pretty sure TfL made this clear in the Report, an X53 could potentially run fast from Blackheath to Elephant or as a stop gap for the Bakerloo line, have the X53 run to Lewisham then non stop, besides, wouldn’t an X177 be caught up in the single lane traffic because of the bike lane from Woolwich to Greenwich A restored 177E would effectively end up as an X53 anyway, given that the traffic on the 'lower road' is usually far worse than through Charlton and Greenwich. That's one of the reasons the 53X and 177E merged into the X53 in the 90s. It seems extremely unlikely that, having spent billions providing a fast rail line to Central London from Abbey Wood, TfL would now lay on an express service from Thamesmead after cutting it when the Jubilee Line opened. Good local feeders into Abbey Wood are surely the best way forward. Maybe even a W7 style route linking Abbey Wood station with all the Thamesmead loop every 4-6 mins would be more useful then trying to create a new X route to central London. Personally I think the 229, 301 and 472 will provide enough of a service to Abbey Wood in their own right with the 301 and 472 taking people to Woolwich arsenal for the station and town centre. |
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 18, 2022 13:39:41 GMT
DLR from Woolwich is often full from Woolwich. It’s currently not helped by SE trains and Thameslink still not running pre covid services. Crossrail will help massively. I think Crossrail should be 24/7 , and yes an X53 would also be a bonus Thameslink services are fully restored from 15th May. The DLR services from Woolwich are currently all 3 car trains. It should be remembered that anyone who buys a Zone 1/2 Travelcard gets free bus travel across the whole of London. This is why North Greenwich is so popular. Anyone who purchases a travelcard gets bus use for free. North Greenwich is a popular lure to passengers due to the station being put in zone2/3 boundary, so would pay less than those traveling from the Woolwich & Eltham areas for example. All DLR services are now 3 car trains, with the rare exception of the Stratford- Canary Wharf line where some 2 car trains operate in lieu of increased frequencies. At the very start of lockdown, I worked nights at Woolwich and you'd be hard pressed to remember there was a pandemic judging by the volume of passengers. I'm not local but Crossrail will definitely relieve the DLR passengers there. People barely utilize the National Rail station there and if they do, it's normally to head further east into the Dartford area. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 18, 2022 13:59:11 GMT
Thameslink services are fully restored from 15th May. The DLR services from Woolwich are currently all 3 car trains. It should be remembered that anyone who buys a Zone 1/2 Travelcard gets free bus travel across the whole of London. This is why North Greenwich is so popular. Anyone who purchases a travelcard gets bus use for free. North Greenwich is a popular lure to passengers due to the station being put in zone2/3 boundary, so would pay less than those traveling from the Woolwich & Eltham areas for example. All DLR services are now 3 car trains, with the rare exception of the Stratford- Canary Wharf line where some 2 car trains operate in lieu of increased frequencies. At the very start of lockdown, I worked nights at Woolwich and you'd be hard pressed to remember there was a pandemic judging by the volume of passengers. I'm not local but Crossrail will definitely relieve the DLR passengers there. People barely utilize the National Rail station there and if they do, it's normally to head further east into the Dartford area. Woolwich Arsenal in my experience is popular, I think it was obviously down to lockdown when there weren’t as many services or people about. Try getting on a Charing Cross train from Blackheath that’s come from the Woolwich line and it’s rammed even in off peak. |
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 18, 2022 14:21:44 GMT
Anyone who purchases a travelcard gets bus use for free. North Greenwich is a popular lure to passengers due to the station being put in zone2/3 boundary, so would pay less than those traveling from the Woolwich & Eltham areas for example. All DLR services are now 3 car trains, with the rare exception of the Stratford- Canary Wharf line where some 2 car trains operate in lieu of increased frequencies. At the very start of lockdown, I worked nights at Woolwich and you'd be hard pressed to remember there was a pandemic judging by the volume of passengers. I'm not local but Crossrail will definitely relieve the DLR passengers there. People barely utilize the National Rail station there and if they do, it's normally to head further east into the Dartford area. Woolwich Arsenal in my experience is popular, I think it was obviously down to lockdown when there weren’t as many services or people about. Try getting on a Charing Cross train from Blackheath that’s come from the Woolwich line and it’s rammed even in off peak. As aforementioned, DLR capacity was increased for the pandemic and hasn't really regressed. The conclusion is that Woolwich has a large population that's socioeconomically challenged, and is certainly the first-hand takeaway point I observed in late March/early April 2020. Crossrail will definitely aid the woes of struggling residents, as Southeastern's fares I believe aren't homogenised with Oyster fares. For context I've rarely caught a Southeastern train to or from Woolwich; used more Thameslink services to Woolwich Arsenal which says everything really. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 18, 2022 16:54:52 GMT
Personally I think they should resurrect the GWT idea but merge it with the Dartford Fastrack, and have a bus rapid transit network from Lewisham/Greenwich all the way to Ebbsfleet, at least this will serve as an alternative to the CrossRail extension and better link Thamesmead, may involve axing a few routes.
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Post by cl54 on Apr 18, 2022 21:01:09 GMT
Personally I think they should resurrect the GWT idea but merge it with the Dartford Fastrack, and have a bus rapid transit network from Lewisham/Greenwich all the way to Ebbsfleet, at least this will serve as an alternative to the CrossRail extension and better link Thamesmead, may involve axing a few routes. Unfortunately the route for the Greenwich Waterfront Transit in the Charlton area has been released for development. Some housing has already been built. The old music hall song springs to mind with your suggested joined up route - "If It Wasn't For The Houses In Between". |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2022 9:37:25 GMT
Personally I think they should resurrect the GWT idea but merge it with the Dartford Fastrack, and have a bus rapid transit network from Lewisham/Greenwich all the way to Ebbsfleet, at least this will serve as an alternative to the CrossRail extension and better link Thamesmead, may involve axing a few routes. Totally agree. There is seamless industry along the Thames all the way to Gravesend. Also housing developments. The London / Kent border is disconnected bus wise between Slade Green and Stone / Greenhithe . A rapid transport scheme omitting Dartford itself i think would be popular. Amazon subsidises the shuttles to and from LCY3 from Woolwich and Thamesmead - if they were to be merged into one running through to Gravesend 24/7 not only would you have a night link ( via connections to TfL night services from Woolwich and Thamesmead) from Central London to heavily populated areas of North Kent but you would also have strategic public transport connecting quite a few hubs together with high density housing and industry which is mainly blue collar. |
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Post by route53 on Apr 19, 2022 11:25:29 GMT
Personally I think they should resurrect the GWT idea but merge it with the Dartford Fastrack, and have a bus rapid transit network from Lewisham/Greenwich all the way to Ebbsfleet, at least this will serve as an alternative to the CrossRail extension and better link Thamesmead, may involve axing a few routes. Totally agree. There is seamless industry along the Thames all the way to Gravesend. Also housing developments. The London / Kent border is disconnected bus wise between Slade Green and Stone / Greenhithe . A rapid transport scheme omitting Dartford itself i think would be popular. Amazon subsidises the shuttles to and from LCY3 from Woolwich and Thamesmead - if they were to be merged into one running through to Gravesend 24/7 not only would you have a night link ( via connections to TfL night services from Woolwich and Thamesmead) from Central London to heavily populated areas of North Kent but you would also have strategic public transport connecting quite a few hubs together with high density housing and industry which is mainly blue collar. If there was space on the roads this would be the perfect solution it would certainly fill the gap in terms of a CrossRail extension to Ebbsfleet/Gravesend for the meant time, even though houses have been built on the proposed GWT route I still think such a network could exist in some form, and it wouldn’t be a glorified 96, 180 or 472 bus either, just a much needed system for this part of the world. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 19, 2022 11:47:06 GMT
Personally I think they should resurrect the GWT idea but merge it with the Dartford Fastrack, and have a bus rapid transit network from Lewisham/Greenwich all the way to Ebbsfleet, at least this will serve as an alternative to the CrossRail extension and better link Thamesmead, may involve axing a few routes. Totally agree. There is seamless industry along the Thames all the way to Gravesend. Also housing developments. The London / Kent border is disconnected bus wise between Slade Green and Stone / Greenhithe . A rapid transport scheme omitting Dartford itself i think would be popular. Amazon subsidises the shuttles to and from LCY3 from Woolwich and Thamesmead - if they were to be merged into one running through to Gravesend 24/7 not only would you have a night link ( via connections to TfL night services from Woolwich and Thamesmead) from Central London to heavily populated areas of North Kent but you would also have strategic public transport connecting quite a few hubs together with high density housing and industry which is mainly blue collar. Nothing against the idea but given that TfL has no interest in new cross border routes & Kent seemingly don’t want to pay for some of the current ones, who will be funding it? Fares would be another thing - would it have a mix of Oyster & provincial fare operation which I don’t think has been done on a bus before or just the latter? |
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