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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 21:23:07 GMT
I doubt there would be much demand, and for anyone making that journey, taking the bus would take a while. The quickest route would probably be a bus to Abbey Wood then a southeastern train direct to Lewisham. Or when Crossrail is open, changing at Canary Wharf for the DLR to Lewisham. Even if a bus route were to be extended from Woolwich, something else would likely need to be cut back (such as the 177) to avoid having excess capacity on that section. While the 178 has been suggested, it's not that direct. I think the best option for a bus link would be a split of route 54 - the 129 or 199 could be extended onwards from Lewisham/Bellingham to Elmers End - then a revised 54 could operate between Lewisham and Thamesmead. Plus the 177 reduced to Peckham-Woolwich. But as above, I'm not sure it would be worth such changes when the hopper fare and train alternatives are available for that journey. I would suggest Thamesmead to Lewisham is an obvious missing link, that and Bexleyheath are the nearest decent shopping centres (I don't think many people would class Woolwich as such) and even with the change to the B11 Bexleyheath still has three routes to Thamesmead whilst Lewisham is losing the 180. Even with the move to online shopping there are still many other reasons why Thamesmead residents might want to get to Lewisham. Obviously there would have to be changes to other routes, nothing comes for free nowadays, but the hopper fare argument could be applied to any direct link. I beg to differ about Bexleyheath and Lewisham being decent shopping centres. Both are pretty rubbish these days. |
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2022 21:24:32 GMT
The zones definitely need an overhaul, the central areas has expanded eastwards in recent years with the growth of the Docklands, Stratford and Lewisham. Greenwich and Lewisham should be flat out zone 2, same with Blackheath, while Woolwich and Plumstead should be in zone 3 The one that really bothers me is Woolwich Dockyard and Woolwich Arsenal not being in the same zone - at the very least Arsenal should be zone 3 as well as 4. Plenty of other things not right with zones right across London imo but that’s for another thread. Bromley North being in Zone 4 but Bromley South being in Zone 5 is baffling. |
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Post by cl54 on May 11, 2022 22:46:36 GMT
Not to mention that these fares are likely a challenge to low-income households, which is a big part of Thamesmead’s population. Indeed, which is why buses in my view are key to solving Thamesmead’s isolation issue, including express routes. Large parts of the original Thamesmead estates have seen demolition and replacement with new blocks with higher rents. A lot of the West Thamesmead area has high standard houses. The social balance of the area is changing. |
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Post by SILENCED on May 11, 2022 23:24:28 GMT
The zones definitely need an overhaul, the central areas has expanded eastwards in recent years with the growth of the Docklands, Stratford and Lewisham. Greenwich and Lewisham should be flat out zone 2, same with Blackheath, while Woolwich and Plumstead should be in zone 3 Another issue with zone inconsistency is around the Greater London border. For example, Epping is in Zone 6, while many stations much closer to Central London are in zones 7+ Or in the Watford area, the most popular station (Watford Junction - with 15 min journey time into Euston) has special fares, the next few stops on the Overground are in zone 8. Meanwhile on the Met Line, Watford/Rickmansworth/Chorleywood are only in zone 7. Many passengers instead opt to take the bus or drive to somewhere like Stanmore for cheaper fares. I'm sure there's plenty more examples of this - North Greenwich is often mentioned as an alternative to Southeastern stations in the Woolwich area. Also another issue is oyster acceptance at stations around the border where no services are run by TFL. Somewhere like Hertford East accepts oyster, but not Denham, Esher, Sunbury or Staines (all of which are served by TFL bus routes). Trouble you have is Oyster us outdated technology. It is for TfL to come up with a standard that conforms to industry norms. Even then, you are not going to get TfL fares, but at least you would have a common payment method. |
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Post by SILENCED on May 11, 2022 23:26:18 GMT
So you are not agreeing they are the best roads in London? Do you not think those roads pull the local traffic, reducing congestion? Would those areas today be better off without these sections of road? The fact is we are left with a not fit for purpose Victorian road system in London ... that is the alternative we have been left with. Everyone moans about congestion .... maybe linked. Those areas simply *wouldn't exist* if those roads had been built. So ,commercial and residential areas do not grow around ease of transport? I beg to differ, think these areas would have flourished. If I had Ringway 3 within a few hundred metres of me I would be happily using it now. |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on May 11, 2022 23:33:23 GMT
Those areas simply *wouldn't exist* if those roads had been built. So ,commercial and residential areas do not grow around ease of transport? I beg to differ, think these areas would have flourished. If I had Ringway 3 within a few hundred metres of me I would be happily using it now. I take it you'd be queueing up to live in one of these new places next to a dual carriageway then, or is that for other people? |
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Post by stuckonthe486 on May 11, 2022 23:40:39 GMT
The zones definitely need an overhaul, the central areas has expanded eastwards in recent years with the growth of the Docklands, Stratford and Lewisham. Greenwich and Lewisham should be flat out zone 2, same with Blackheath, while Woolwich and Plumstead should be in zone 3 The one that really bothers me is Woolwich Dockyard and Woolwich Arsenal not being in the same zone - at the very least Arsenal should be zone 3 as well as 4. Plenty of other things not right with zones right across London imo but that’s for another thread. That boundary in Woolwich was even dafter in the days of bus zones too. It is a topic for another thread, but the whole zone system - as it is now, based on 40-year-old boundaries made when the city was in decline - isn't fit for purpose. |
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Post by vjaska on May 11, 2022 23:57:47 GMT
So ,commercial and residential areas do not grow around ease of transport? I beg to differ, think these areas would have flourished. If I had Ringway 3 within a few hundred metres of me I would be happily using it now. I take it you'd be queueing up to live in one of these new places next to a dual carriageway then, or is that for other people? Indeed, it is one of the poorest takes I've had to read in a while. When Westway was built, many of the people ended up wanting out because of the conditions they were left with not to mention the community being torn apart due to demolition of people's homes and people moving elsewhere as a result. It was bad there but it would be infinitely worse if the ringway schemes went ahead in their full guise - I can certainly speak of the damage done to my own area, Brixton, had Ringway 1 gone ahead - taken from Wikipedia "The SCR would have next reached a difficult section through Brixton town centre where a complexity of railway tracks branching and crossing above one another to follow different routes, Brixton station and the narrow shopping streets would have needed considerable demolition to make a route for the elevated SCR. In conjunction with the road scheme, the Greater London Council proposed a scheme for the almost total clearance and reconstruction of the town centre including the construction of more than a dozen 50-storey blocks of flats as well as widespread low-rise residential and commercial projects. Just as the road itself attracted objections, the redevelopment of the town centre met with considerable local opposition and virtually none of the proposals were implemented"
"For a while, the destruction planned for Brixton town centre would have been even greater. It was intended to locate a junction here to connect the SCR to a motorway running south-east along the railway line to Herne Hill and then to South Norwood and a probable terminal on Ringway 3 at or near Addington. This motorway, known to the road planners as the "South Cross Route to Parkway D Radial" was still part of the Ringways Plan in 1969 but had been cancelled by 1972 along with the southern section of Ringway 2"In effect, one of the most well known parts of South London throughout the world would cease to virtually exist, it's identity lost to a motorway no one wanted. Thank goodness the only thing that got built was the Barrier Block flats on the Somerleyton estate which was specifically built to shield the estate from the noise of Ringway 1 - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Cross_Route#/media/File:Southwyck_House,_Brixton_-_geograph.org.uk_-_220874.jpg |
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Post by greenboy on May 12, 2022 5:03:41 GMT
I would suggest Thamesmead to Lewisham is an obvious missing link, that and Bexleyheath are the nearest decent shopping centres (I don't think many people would class Woolwich as such) and even with the change to the B11 Bexleyheath still has three routes to Thamesmead whilst Lewisham is losing the 180. Even with the move to online shopping there are still many other reasons why Thamesmead residents might want to get to Lewisham. Obviously there would have to be changes to other routes, nothing comes for free nowadays, but the hopper fare argument could be applied to any direct link. I beg to differ about Bexleyheath and Lewisham being decent shopping centres. Both are pretty rubbish these days. Maybe but I still think they're a lot better than Woolwich. |
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Post by twobellstogo on May 12, 2022 5:09:56 GMT
I beg to differ about Bexleyheath and Lewisham being decent shopping centres. Both are pretty rubbish these days. Maybe but I still think they're a lot better than Woolwich. Bexleyheath and Lewisham are both ok - they cater for most needs. Morley’s department store is a significant addition to Bexleyheath - Lewisham has lacked that sort of focal point since Chiesmans/Army and Navy went. Both have a bit of a preponderance of mobile/vape stores, but that can be said for many/most shopping areas in London/South East. Woolwich is rather poor : again, no focal point unless you count the Tesco - it’s a shame Cuffs department store is long, long gone. |
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Post by route53 on May 12, 2022 6:36:20 GMT
Lewisham will recover eventually, with or without the Bakerloo line, it’ll still be a draw, plus it is a major transportation hub.
Bexleyheath I haven’t been to in a while, but last time I went (late 2000s/early 2010s) its best days did seem to be behind it, I largely suspect Bluewater took a lot of shoppers away from Bexleyheath from the late 1990s onwards.
Bromley now seems to be declining, though not as much as Croydon town centre has.
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Post by busman on May 12, 2022 9:56:01 GMT
Not to mention that these fares are likely a challenge to low-income households, which is a big part of Thamesmead’s population. Indeed, which is why buses in my view are key to solving Thamesmead’s isolation issue, including express routes. The Lizzie Line definitely helps improve accessibility for Thamesmead, but it needs a river crossing nearby and a DLR service. Until then, it will always be clockwork orange land. I once read that there wasn’t a single cash point in Thamesmead. Not sure if the situation has changed, but there are other fundamental issues other than transport that the area has to contend with. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 10:15:54 GMT
I beg to differ about Bexleyheath and Lewisham being decent shopping centres. Both are pretty rubbish these days. Maybe but I still think they're a lot better than Woolwich. [br Yeah Woolwich is like a post apocalyptic wasteland. Bexleyheath and Lewisham are fine for normal day to day shopping, but they have their own local shops in Thamesmead anyway. People from Thamesmead that want an actual decent day out shopping would surely go to either Bluewater or Stratford. |
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Post by twobellstogo on May 12, 2022 10:28:19 GMT
Indeed, which is why buses in my view are key to solving Thamesmead’s isolation issue, including express routes. The Lizzie Line definitely helps improve accessibility for Thamesmead, but it needs a river crossing nearby and a DLR service. Until then, it will always be clockwork orange land. I once read that there wasn’t a single cash point in Thamesmead. Not sure if the situation has changed, but there are other fundamental issues other than transport that the area has to contend with. There’s an ATM at the Morrison’s in Thamesmead Town Centre. |
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Post by vjaska on May 12, 2022 11:45:59 GMT
Lewisham will recover eventually, with or without the Bakerloo line, it’ll still be a draw, plus it is a major transportation hub. Bexleyheath I haven’t been to in a while, but last time I went (late 2000s/early 2010s) its best days did seem to be behind it, I largely suspect Bluewater took a lot of shoppers away from Bexleyheath from the late 1990s onwards. Bromley now seems to be declining, though not as much as Croydon town centre has. Not sure I’d agree with Bromley declining - I went there before Christmas last year and it was still doing well unlike Croydon which is a shadow of its former self with the Whigift like a morgue at times - Croydon used to be one of our shopping haunts but we haven’t done a proper shopping trip there in ages, normally we do one of Brixton, Streatham, Wandsworth, Bromley or Old Kent Road depending on what we’re after |
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