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Post by lazy_eye_metaphor on Jul 13, 2022 9:10:06 GMT
Four words: Bring back Green Line. Four words: Stuck in the past Oh yes very witty, and I plead guilty! I guess that's what happens when one hits three-score years in age. Anyway introduction of a full Green Line network would need a comprehensive program of new bus priority measures, otherwise reliability would be pants. Good thing the OP said "unlimited budget". |
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Post by uakari on Aug 1, 2022 2:29:30 GMT
I wonder if I win the Euromillions whether I could make a donation to TfL with conditions that they do particular things, or whether they would refuse the money unless unconditional (not that I'd ever give them money unconditionally to watch them pee it up the wall!). 😂
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 1, 2022 8:31:06 GMT
I wonder if I win the Euromillions whether I could make a donation to TfL with conditions that they do particular things, or whether they would refuse the money unless unconditional (not that I'd ever give them money unconditionally to watch them pee it up the wall!). 😂 A better idea is not to give money to TfL (I'm not even sure they could accept what is effectively a charitable donation), but to fund a service that fills a specific need. Don't forget that any operator with an O licence can operate a bus service in London if they obtain a London Service Permit, so for example you could fund a community minibus to operate on roads along the former 384 route that no longer have a bus service, or you could fund a bus service between Barnet and Potters Bar. |
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Post by southlondon413 on Aug 1, 2022 8:46:24 GMT
I wonder if I win the Euromillions whether I could make a donation to TfL with conditions that they do particular things, or whether they would refuse the money unless unconditional (not that I'd ever give them money unconditionally to watch them pee it up the wall!). 😂 A better idea is not to give money to TfL (I'm not even sure they could accept what is effectively a charitable donation), but to fund a service that fills a specific need. Don't forget that any operator with an O licence can operate a bus service in London if they obtain a London Service Permit, so for example you could fund a community minibus to operate on roads along the former 384 route that no longer have a bus service, or you could fund a bus service between Barnet and Potters Bar. Go one step further and set the service up as a charity then you’d make money on it as everything would be tax free and you’d make money back on the donation if it was gift aid. There would be ways to make a lot of money back on even a free service run by a charity. |
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Post by uakari on Aug 1, 2022 15:33:20 GMT
A better idea is not to give money to TfL (I'm not even sure they could accept what is effectively a charitable donation), but to fund a service that fills a specific need. Don't forget that any operator with an O licence can operate a bus service in London if they obtain a London Service Permit, so for example you could fund a community minibus to operate on roads along the former 384 route that no longer have a bus service, or you could fund a bus service between Barnet and Potters Bar. Go one step further and set the service up as a charity then you’d make money on it as everything would be tax free and you’d make money back on the donation if it was gift aid. There would be ways to make a lot of money back on even a free service run by a charity. I would seriously consider attempting something like this if I won big money. The disadvantage is if you needed to charge people fares and not being part of TfL ticketing, and whether this would discourage passengers. But it would cool to fund a bus service. This man already does it: www.bridportnews.co.uk/news/19897571.man-funding-x53-bridport-bus-service/ |
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 1, 2022 15:57:29 GMT
Go one step further and set the service up as a charity then you’d make money on it as everything would be tax free and you’d make money back on the donation if it was gift aid. There would be ways to make a lot of money back on even a free service run by a charity. I would seriously consider attempting something like this if I won big money. The disadvantage is if you needed to charge people fares and not being part of TfL ticketing, and whether this would discourage passengers. But it would cool to fund a bus service. This man already does it: www.bridportnews.co.uk/news/19897571.man-funding-x53-bridport-bus-service/Many of your passengers would qualify for free travel anyway - don't forget that if you registered a regular bus service you would be obliged to accept ENCTS passes and Freedom Passes, against which you would claim funding. You could extend free travel voluntarily to 60+ Oyster and Senior Railcard holders (or just anyone over 60), and to anyone age 15 or under (Oyster as proof). And if you are funding the service, you could make the fare for passengers age 16-59 a nominal £1. This is the basis on which HCT Group's 812 service in Islington operates. www.route812.org/ |
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 1, 2022 16:11:52 GMT
Many of your passengers would qualify for free travel anyway - don't forget that if you registered a regular bus service you would be obliged to accept ENCTS passes and Freedom Passes, against which you would claim funding. You could extend free travel voluntarily to 60+ Oyster and Senior Railcard holders (or just anyone over 60), and to anyone age 15 or under (Oyster as proof). And if you are funding the service, you could make the fare for passengers age 16-59 a nominal £1. This is the basis on which HCT Group's 812 service in Islington operates. www.route812.org/ I am hoping he would try and run it at a profit ... if fact if you did not, it could be classed as unfair competition. I certainly would not be picking up passengers I would not be recompensed for. |
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Post by uakari on Aug 1, 2022 16:21:29 GMT
Many of your passengers would qualify for free travel anyway - don't forget that if you registered a regular bus service you would be obliged to accept ENCTS passes and Freedom Passes, against which you would claim funding. You could extend free travel voluntarily to 60+ Oyster and Senior Railcard holders (or just anyone over 60), and to anyone age 15 or under (Oyster as proof). And if you are funding the service, you could make the fare for passengers age 16-59 a nominal £1. This is the basis on which HCT Group's 812 service in Islington operates. www.route812.org/ While I'm waiting for my millions (!) I wish Barnet council would do something similar for the 384 and 84. And Bromley for the R7, etc etc. No harm in making the suggestion I suppose, although creating such a service might mean TfL consider the roads/links 'covered' and are less likely to reintroduce one of their own (the 812 is very limited in its hours). Mind you, I believe the 394 started as a Hackney Community Transport route and TfL saw it was popular and took it over. |
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Post by uakari on Aug 1, 2022 16:24:24 GMT
Many of your passengers would qualify for free travel anyway - don't forget that if you registered a regular bus service you would be obliged to accept ENCTS passes and Freedom Passes, against which you would claim funding. You could extend free travel voluntarily to 60+ Oyster and Senior Railcard holders (or just anyone over 60), and to anyone age 15 or under (Oyster as proof). And if you are funding the service, you could make the fare for passengers age 16-59 a nominal £1. This is the basis on which HCT Group's 812 service in Islington operates. www.route812.org/ I am hoping he would try and run it at a profit ... if fact if you did not, it could be classed as unfair competition. I certainly would not be picking up passengers I would not be recompensed for. But surely 'unfair competition' means copying someone else's route already running? There's nothing running between Potters Bar and Barnet or along the previous 384 roads, so that should be OK? I don't think it very likely I would be able to make a profit (does the 812?). |
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 1, 2022 16:55:04 GMT
I am hoping he would try and run it at a profit ... if fact if you did not, it could be classed as unfair competition. I certainly would not be picking up passengers I would not be recompensed for. But surely 'unfair competition' means copying someone else's route already running? There's nothing running between Potters Bar and Barnet or along the previous 384 roads, so that should be OK? I don't think it very likely I would be able to make a profit (does the 812?). Depends, even if you are not duplicating routes, if you are attracting custom from an existing service by charging unprofitable fares, it could be deemed uncompetitive. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Aug 1, 2022 17:17:07 GMT
I am hoping he would try and run it at a profit ... if fact if you did not, it could be classed as unfair competition. I certainly would not be picking up passengers I would not be recompensed for. But surely 'unfair competition' means copying someone else's route already running? There's nothing running between Potters Bar and Barnet or along the previous 384 roads, so that should be OK? I don't think it very likely I would be able to make a profit (does the 812?). The 812s timetable is far more restricted however than the 384s, a 30 minute frequency between 9am and 4pm Monday to Friday is a far cry from the 384s 5am to midnight service running 7 days a week, every 15-20 minutes during the daytime and from what I recall the 84 also had a similar timetable, albeit every 30 minutes. |
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Post by uakari on Aug 1, 2022 21:11:42 GMT
But surely 'unfair competition' means copying someone else's route already running? There's nothing running between Potters Bar and Barnet or along the previous 384 roads, so that should be OK? I don't think it very likely I would be able to make a profit (does the 812?). The 812s timetable is far more restricted however than the 384s, a 30 minute frequency between 9am and 4pm Monday to Friday is a far cry from the 384s 5am to midnight service running 7 days a week, every 15-20 minutes during the daytime and from what I recall the 84 also had a similar timetable, albeit every 30 minutes. Indeed, but even something like the 812 would be better than nothing at all. I think we could see more of these initiatives if TfL continue with their 'managed decline' (destruction of the bus network). |
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Post by uakari on Aug 1, 2022 21:24:26 GMT
But surely 'unfair competition' means copying someone else's route already running? There's nothing running between Potters Bar and Barnet or along the previous 384 roads, so that should be OK? I don't think it very likely I would be able to make a profit (does the 812?). Depends, even if you are not duplicating routes, if you are attracting custom from an existing service by charging unprofitable fares, it could be deemed uncompetitive. TfL effectively did this to Uno's 614 between Barnet and Edgware when they extended the 384 to Edgware, but the routing is somewhat different. |
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 1, 2022 21:29:41 GMT
Depends, even if you are not duplicating routes, if you are attracting custom from an existing service by charging unprofitable fares, it could be deemed uncompetitive. TfL effectively did this to Uno's 614 between Barnet and Edgware when they extended the 384 to Edgware, but the routing is somewhat different. They did. But taking someone to court is expensive, which is probably what TfL relied upon, scaring Uno off. When it is the bigger boy that is threatened, they will threaten the smaller boy with the expense of a court case. |
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Post by uakari on Aug 1, 2022 21:48:33 GMT
TfL effectively did this to Uno's 614 between Barnet and Edgware when they extended the 384 to Edgware, but the routing is somewhat different. They did. But taking someone to court is expensive, which is probably what TfL relied upon, scaring Uno off. When it is the bigger boy that is threatened, they will threaten the smaller boy with the expense of a court case. But they'd have to be very petty and would attract bad publicity trying to argue that providing services on roads they refuse to themselves is somehow taking away their passengers. I actually think the rejuvenation of community bus routes could give TfL the kick up the bum they need to see that these are the lengths councils, community groups and philanthropists are having to go to to get a semblance of a decent service. |
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