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Post by busman on Dec 7, 2023 9:53:03 GMT
Seems like TfL can’t win here. After years of carnage and cuts thanks to the initial pain of Boris Johnson’s legacy, TfL are now in a position where once again they can spend money on bus improvements. Yet people here are criticising them for it. Perhaps we have been conditioned to look for ways to make cuts to bus services by what has happened in the last 7 years or so as that was TfLs modus operandi for a period of managed decline. Whilst we continue to imitate that way of thinking, TfL appears to have shifted their thinking in line with their financial position and so should we. Managed decline was never the preferred option and is never going to get more people onto public transport.
To attract passengers away from their cars, buses need to be frequent, fast and get to convenient destinations. The SL7 and other Superloop services does exactly that. In an era where people put a destination into their phone map which calculates the best journey times across different modes of transport, the difference between waiting 5 minutes for the next bus vs. 20 minutes is significant. Right now a journey between Bromley and Sutton is roughly 25 minutes faster by car. Once the SL5 starts, bus journey times will become more competitive with car times. But frequencies need to be high enough on both connecting routes to reduce waiting times when interchanging between SuperLoop routes to enable that type of journey.
As for the SL7, I’ve seen healthy loadings in and out of Heathrow at various times of the day, but admit I have not observed the route between Kingston and Croydon. TfL have all the data and they are not exactly slow to make frequency reductions if capacity is excessive. They need to allow time to observe how people change their travel habits with the new routes and improved frequency- especially with the ULEZ expansion. I’m sure TfL are looking at the data and if it justifies a frequency reduction they will do it.
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Post by greenboy on Dec 7, 2023 11:46:33 GMT
Seems like TfL can’t win here. After years of carnage and cuts thanks to the initial pain of Boris Johnson’s legacy, TfL are now in a position where once again they can spend money on bus improvements. Yet people here are criticising them for it. Perhaps we have been conditioned to look for ways to make cuts to bus services by what has happened in the last 7 years or so as that was TfLs modus operandi for a period of managed decline. Whilst we continue to imitate that way of thinking, TfL appears to have shifted their thinking in line with their financial position and so should we. Managed decline was never the preferred option and is never going to get more people onto public transport. To attract passengers away from their cars, buses need to be frequent, fast and get to convenient destinations. The SL7 and other Superloop services does exactly that. In an era where people put a destination into their phone map which calculates the best journey times across different modes of transport, the difference between waiting 5 minutes for the next bus vs. 20 minutes is significant. Right now a journey between Bromley and Sutton is roughly 25 minutes faster by car. Once the SL5 starts, bus journey times will become more competitive with car times. But frequencies need to be high enough on both connecting routes to reduce waiting times when interchanging between SuperLoop routes to enable that type of journey. As for the SL7, I’ve seen healthy loadings in and out of Heathrow at various times of the day, but admit I have not observed the route between Kingston and Croydon. TfL have all the data and they are not exactly slow to make frequency reductions if capacity is excessive. They need to allow time to observe how people change their travel habits with the new routes and improved frequency- especially with the ULEZ expansion. I’m sure TfL are looking at loading data and it justifies a frequency reduction they will do it. I suspect a lot of people, myself included, are rather sceptical about superloop. Others may have different opinions but just about everybody seems to agree that including routes like the 607 and X68 in it is just nonsensical and a complete waste of money? TfL are quick to shout out about increased loadings on the SL7 but what about any subsequent drops in usage on other routes? And I suspect any successes on other Superloop routes will be at the expense of existing routes. Personally I can't see the Superloop concept as anything more than a gimmick but maybe I'll be proved wrong? |
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Post by wirewiper on Dec 7, 2023 11:56:51 GMT
Seems like TfL can’t win here. After years of carnage and cuts thanks to the initial pain of Boris Johnson’s legacy, TfL are now in a position where once again they can spend money on bus improvements. Yet people here are criticising them for it. Perhaps we have been conditioned to look for ways to make cuts to bus services by what has happened in the last 7 years or so as that was TfLs modus operandi for a period of managed decline. Whilst we continue to imitate that way of thinking, TfL appears to have shifted their thinking in line with their financial position and so should we. Managed decline was never the preferred option and is never going to get more people onto public transport. To attract passengers away from their cars, buses need to be frequent, fast and get to convenient destinations. The SL7 and other Superloop services does exactly that. In an era where people put a destination into their phone map which calculates the best journey times across different modes of transport, the difference between waiting 5 minutes for the next bus vs. 20 minutes is significant. Right now a journey between Bromley and Sutton is roughly 25 minutes faster by car. Once the SL5 starts, bus journey times will become more competitive with car times. But frequencies need to be high enough on both connecting routes to reduce waiting times when interchanging between SuperLoop routes to enable that type of journey. As for the SL7, I’ve seen healthy loadings in and out of Heathrow at various times of the day, but admit I have not observed the route between Kingston and Croydon. TfL have all the data and they are not exactly slow to make frequency reductions if capacity is excessive. They need to allow time to observe how people change their travel habits with the new routes and improved frequency- especially with the ULEZ expansion. I’m sure TfL are looking at loading data and it justifies a frequency reduction they will do it. You put it better than I could. Why do people only look for the negativity? TfL's most recent funding agreement explicitly allowed for increased spending on bus mileage in outer London and a Superloop-style service was on the cards even under the previous Mayor. People's travel habits take time to change, and not all the Superloop increases will come at the expense of conventional routes. Some will be genuinely new journeys that were not made by bus before, and may simply not have been made at all. |
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Post by vjaska on Dec 7, 2023 12:52:59 GMT
Seems like TfL can’t win here. After years of carnage and cuts thanks to the initial pain of Boris Johnson’s legacy, TfL are now in a position where once again they can spend money on bus improvements. Yet people here are criticising them for it. Perhaps we have been conditioned to look for ways to make cuts to bus services by what has happened in the last 7 years or so as that was TfLs modus operandi for a period of managed decline. Whilst we continue to imitate that way of thinking, TfL appears to have shifted their thinking in line with their financial position and so should we. Managed decline was never the preferred option and is never going to get more people onto public transport. To attract passengers away from their cars, buses need to be frequent, fast and get to convenient destinations. The SL7 and other Superloop services does exactly that. In an era where people put a destination into their phone map which calculates the best journey times across different modes of transport, the difference between waiting 5 minutes for the next bus vs. 20 minutes is significant. Right now a journey between Bromley and Sutton is roughly 25 minutes faster by car. Once the SL5 starts, bus journey times will become more competitive with car times. But frequencies need to be high enough on both connecting routes to reduce waiting times when interchanging between SuperLoop routes to enable that type of journey. As for the SL7, I’ve seen healthy loadings in and out of Heathrow at various times of the day, but admit I have not observed the route between Kingston and Croydon. TfL have all the data and they are not exactly slow to make frequency reductions if capacity is excessive. They need to allow time to observe how people change their travel habits with the new routes and improved frequency- especially with the ULEZ expansion. I’m sure TfL are looking at loading data and it justifies a frequency reduction they will do it. You put it better than I could. Why do people only look for the negativity? TfL's most recent funding agreement explicitly allowed for increased spending on bus mileage in outer London and a Superloop-style service was on the cards even under the previous Mayor. People's travel habits take time to change, and not all the Superloop increases will come at the expense of conventional routes. Some will be genuinely new journeys that were not made by bus before, and may simply not have been made at all. I agree with you and with busman up to a point - you can forgive me as an Inner London resident who sees nothing but cuts for criticism of TfL given we are now an afterthought but in terms of the Superloop, bar a few things (including the 607 & X68 is an error, branding not being particularly great), the routes and frequencies on offer make sense as shorter waits and quicker journeys is what will attract people to use them and tweaks can always be made upon review. |
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Post by busoccultation on Dec 7, 2023 12:54:30 GMT
Seems like TfL can’t win here. After years of carnage and cuts thanks to the initial pain of Boris Johnson’s legacy, TfL are now in a position where once again they can spend money on bus improvements. Yet people here are criticising them for it. Perhaps we have been conditioned to look for ways to make cuts to bus services by what has happened in the last 7 years or so as that was TfLs modus operandi for a period of managed decline. Whilst we continue to imitate that way of thinking, TfL appears to have shifted their thinking in line with their financial position and so should we. Managed decline was never the preferred option and is never going to get more people onto public transport. To attract passengers away from their cars, buses need to be frequent, fast and get to convenient destinations. The SL7 and other Superloop services does exactly that. In an era where people put a destination into their phone map which calculates the best journey times across different modes of transport, the difference between waiting 5 minutes for the next bus vs. 20 minutes is significant. Right now a journey between Bromley and Sutton is roughly 25 minutes faster by car. Once the SL5 starts, bus journey times will become more competitive with car times. But frequencies need to be high enough on both connecting routes to reduce waiting times when interchanging between SuperLoop routes to enable that type of journey. As for the SL7, I’ve seen healthy loadings in and out of Heathrow at various times of the day, but admit I have not observed the route between Kingston and Croydon. TfL have all the data and they are not exactly slow to make frequency reductions if capacity is excessive. They need to allow time to observe how people change their travel habits with the new routes and improved frequency- especially with the ULEZ expansion. I’m sure TfL are looking at loading data and it justifies a frequency reduction they will do it. You put it better than I could. Why do people only look for the negativity? TfL's most recent funding agreement explicitly allowed for increased spending on bus mileage in outer London and a Superloop-style service was on the cards even under the previous Mayor. People's travel habits take time to change, and not all the Superloop increases will come at the expense of conventional routes. Some will be genuinely new journeys that were not made by bus before, and may simply not have been made at all. I think there is too much bias on here towards certain routes especially with routes going into Zone 1 area seems to get a favourable treatment on here in comparison to the routes in the outskirts that don't get the same treatment as the Central London routes or the busy non Zone 1 routes like the 5 & 86. Even in the pre Superloop days, I always tend to find the 607, X26 & X140 very well used that is proving popular among passengers going over longer distances and I do see the Superloop will eventually be a success . I'm for one always wanted more express routes in London as I know they will prove popular once the demand builds up.
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Post by wirewiper on Dec 7, 2023 13:07:13 GMT
You put it better than I could. Why do people only look for the negativity? TfL's most recent funding agreement explicitly allowed for increased spending on bus mileage in outer London and a Superloop-style service was on the cards even under the previous Mayor. People's travel habits take time to change, and not all the Superloop increases will come at the expense of conventional routes. Some will be genuinely new journeys that were not made by bus before, and may simply not have been made at all. I think there is too much bias on here towards certain routes especially with routes going into Zone 1 area seems to get a favourable treatment on here in comparison to the routes in the outskirts that don't get the same treatment as the Central London routes or the busy non Zone 1 routes like the 5 & 86. Even in the pre Superloop days, I always tend to find the 607, X26 & X140 very well used that is proving popular among passengers going over longer distances and I do see the Superloop will eventually be a success . I'm for one always wanted more express routes in London as I know they will prove popular once the demand builds up.
Yes I think it is quite clear that the patterns of demand for bus travel in Greater London are changing. Services into zone 1 have been declining for a number of reasons - mainly slow speeds due to traffic congestion*, combined with improvements to rail services which have taken many years to trickle through after the lack of investment and the maintenance backlogs of the 1970s and 1980s but have borne fruit in recent years. At the same time, travel in the outer suburbs remains buoyant, and can be seen with routes like the 140, 182 and 183 all making the top thirty in terms of journey numbers over a year - indeed the (pre-SL10) 183 in the last financial year accounted for more passenger journeys than the 38. |
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Post by WH241 on Dec 7, 2023 13:32:15 GMT
You put it better than I could. Why do people only look for the negativity? TfL's most recent funding agreement explicitly allowed for increased spending on bus mileage in outer London and a Superloop-style service was on the cards even under the previous Mayor. People's travel habits take time to change, and not all the Superloop increases will come at the expense of conventional routes. Some will be genuinely new journeys that were not made by bus before, and may simply not have been made at all. I agree with you and with busman up to a point - you can forgive me as an Inner London resident who sees nothing but cuts for criticism of TfL given we are now an afterthought but in terms of the Superloop, bar a few things (including the 607 & X68 is an error, branding not being particularly great), the routes and frequencies on offer make sense as shorter waits and quicker journeys is what will attract people to use them and tweaks can always be made upon review. Even with recent cuts I don’t think inner London residents have much to complain about. There has been a huge amount of improvements to the network since 2000 and not just buses. It’s not always going to be inner vs outer London. |
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Post by MKAY315 on Dec 7, 2023 13:57:04 GMT
I think there is too much bias on here towards certain routes especially with routes going into Zone 1 area seems to get a favourable treatment on here in comparison to the routes in the outskirts that don't get the same treatment as the Central London routes or the busy non Zone 1 routes like the 5 & 86. Even in the pre Superloop days, I always tend to find the 607, X26 & X140 very well used that is proving popular among passengers going over longer distances and I do see the Superloop will eventually be a success . I'm for one always wanted more express routes in London as I know they will prove popular once the demand builds up.
Yes I think it is quite clear that the patterns of demand for bus travel in Greater London are changing. Services into zone 1 have been declining for a number of reasons - mainly slow speeds due to traffic congestion*, combined with improvements to rail services which have taken many years to trickle through after the lack of investment and the maintenance backlogs of the 1970s and 1980s but have borne fruit in recent years. At the same time, travel in the outer suburbs remains buoyant, and can be seen with routes like the 140, 182 and 183 all making the top thirty in terms of journey numbers over a year - indeed the (pre-SL10) 183 in the last financial year accounted for more passenger journeys than the 38. To be fair exactly 4 years ago today (gosh I can't believe time flies) the 140 was very busy given the places it crosses and goes to. It being cut to Hayes was indeed a necessary evil as people getting on the SL9 has seen that they can bypass the smaller stops that the 140 and 278 deal with. |
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Post by MKAY315 on Dec 7, 2023 13:59:04 GMT
Out of curiosity does anyone know what the PVR was for the 726 when it ran from dartford?
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Post by WH241 on Dec 7, 2023 14:04:01 GMT
Out of curiosity does anyone know what the PVR was for the 726 when it ran from dartford? Buses At Work shows it as 6 in the year 2000 but that’s to Bromley. Nothing is listed for Dartford in the late 90s. |
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Post by rm1422 on Dec 7, 2023 14:09:12 GMT
Out of curiosity does anyone know what the PVR was for the 726 when it ran from dartford? Buses At Work shows it as 6 in the year 2000 but that’s to Bromley. Nothing is listed for Dartford in the late 90s. Try this for more PVR info, seems to have been 12 in 1996
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Post by TB123 on Dec 7, 2023 14:24:11 GMT
Seems like TfL can’t win here. After years of carnage and cuts thanks to the initial pain of Boris Johnson’s legacy, TfL are now in a position where once again they can spend money on bus improvements. Yet people here are criticising them for it. Perhaps we have been conditioned to look for ways to make cuts to bus services by what has happened in the last 7 years or so as that was TfLs modus operandi for a period of managed decline. Whilst we continue to imitate that way of thinking, TfL appears to have shifted their thinking in line with their financial position and so should we. Managed decline was never the preferred option and is never going to get more people onto public transport. To attract passengers away from their cars, buses need to be frequent, fast and get to convenient destinations. The SL7 and other Superloop services does exactly that. In an era where people put a destination into their phone map which calculates the best journey times across different modes of transport, the difference between waiting 5 minutes for the next bus vs. 20 minutes is significant. Right now a journey between Bromley and Sutton is roughly 25 minutes faster by car. Once the SL5 starts, bus journey times will become more competitive with car times. But frequencies need to be high enough on both connecting routes to reduce waiting times when interchanging between SuperLoop routes to enable that type of journey. As for the SL7, I’ve seen healthy loadings in and out of Heathrow at various times of the day, but admit I have not observed the route between Kingston and Croydon. TfL have all the data and they are not exactly slow to make frequency reductions if capacity is excessive. They need to allow time to observe how people change their travel habits with the new routes and improved frequency- especially with the ULEZ expansion. I’m sure TfL are looking at loading data and it justifies a frequency reduction they will do it. Well said....voice of reason. |
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Post by MKAY315 on Dec 7, 2023 14:37:07 GMT
Buses At Work shows it as 6 in the year 2000 but that’s to Bromley. Nothing is listed for Dartford in the late 90s. Try this for more PVR info, seems to have been 12 in 1996
Thank you very much |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Dec 7, 2023 16:49:00 GMT
To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the SL7's frequency was increased to every 12 minutes solely to make it match the frequency of the other Superloop routes. I certainly can't see there being any chance of its frequency being decreased, it's more likely some of the new Superloop routes will be decreased from every 12 to every 15 minutes if demand is too low. I don't think a universal decrease to 15 mins would happen neither. 12 mins is recognised as the lower end of 'high-frequency' already. Wait up to 15 mins and the time savings of the limited stop route are practically gone already. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Dec 7, 2023 17:36:29 GMT
The cost of maintaining a reliable x15min frequency has probably been underestimated too. There are usually some big gaps in service on the SL7 which will not make it attractive in the longer term. The PVR will need to be bumped up just to maintain any hope of the advertised frequency being achieved. [br Purely anecdotal - watching Heathrow bound SL7’s this morning versus 285 loadings - SL7 very busy , 285 light loadings If this is typical, perhaps one option might be to increase the SL7 up to every 12 minutes (as seems to be standard for most Superloop routes), add a few extra stops at the western end (at least at Feltham), then reduce the 285 to every 15 minutes? |
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