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Post by vjaska on Apr 18, 2023 11:50:03 GMT
Depends on certain parameters - for all we know, there may be a group of people who switched away from public transport to alternatives as a result of this change resulting in the effect of other routes "coping". That shouldn't be a case of back slapping TfL and high fiving everyone. Unlikely I would say to have left altogether. More likely people who used to ride down to Ealing Broadway rather then taking the GWR are now taking the Elizabeth Line. Secondly realistically what alternatives? People in Southall only take a Uber now or overnight bought a car. Maybe but it’s a point worth making when people on here simply thank TfL for making every cut going without considering that rather than a change being good, the resultant change has lead to a reduction which makes the change look better than it is. |
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Post by northlondon83 on Apr 18, 2023 12:04:37 GMT
427 changes - I live on the corridor but do not use the route, however I'd say that the 207 and 607 have coped without the 427. However I'd say that longer journeys on the 607 are undesirable, the bus moves so slowly through Southall. The best use of these routes are west of Southall as it's the only area where there's 40mph and is where there isn't any train stations nearby. It was inevitable a lot of people would switch to Crossrail when it opened rather than take a bus to Ealing Broadway for the tube and as you say the 207 and 607 seem quite adequate for demand now. The 607 seems to have got slower since it moved from UX to G with an additional stop added for driver changeovers, I can recall some spirited driving from UX drivers but it just seems a plod along service now with drivers often sitting at stops to regulate which is ridiculous on a supposedly express service. The 607 isn't great for long distance journeys especially east of Southall. The Elizabeth line has improved train services across the corridor and if you want to go to Acton from Southall you can change at Ealing Broadway for the District line, likewise White City and Shepherd's Bush can be done by taking the Central line from Ealing Broadway too. It seems like a more attractive way to travel given that the trains are frequent, and the majority of the journeys that would have otherwise been done on the 607 would end in Zone 2 so not that expensive. I quite often commute to work by bike on this corridor and I've noticed how slow the buses are, today especially as the schools are back now. As for it being deemed an express route, it hardly is because it's only marginally faster than the 207. With regards to express routes, I don't see radial express routes working, definitely across NW London there's no good corridor to put an express route there. Harrow Road is a mess especially through Harlesden. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 18, 2023 12:08:01 GMT
Unlikely I would say to have left altogether. More likely people who used to ride down to Ealing Broadway rather then taking the GWR are now taking the Elizabeth Line. Secondly realistically what alternatives? People in Southall only take a Uber now or overnight bought a car. Maybe but it’s a point worth making when people on here simply thank TfL for making every cut going without considering that rather than a change being good, the resultant change has lead to a reduction which makes the change look better than it is. You seem to be picking at all my points today. First this then Paul Sculley. Only a day after you accused WH241 of doing the same to you. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 18, 2023 12:14:15 GMT
Maybe but it’s a point worth making when people on here simply thank TfL for making every cut going without considering that rather than a change being good, the resultant change has lead to a reduction which makes the change look better than it is. You seem to be picking at all my points today. First this then Paul Sculley. Only a day after you accused WH241 of doing the same to you. Go read the post that I sent him yesterday - like him, don’t make baseless assumptions. Like you & everyone, I’m free to agree and disagree with whatever post on here - there is no picking going on |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 18, 2023 12:21:14 GMT
You seem to be picking at all my points today. First this then Paul Sculley. Only a day after you accused WH241 of doing the same to you. Go read the post that I sent him yesterday - like him, don’t make baseless assumptions. Like you & everyone, I’m free to agree and disagree with whatever post on here - there is no picking going on But I'm entitled to say a cut back hasn't been too bad without being accused to high fiving and thanking TFL. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 18, 2023 13:11:21 GMT
Go read the post that I sent him yesterday - like him, don’t make baseless assumptions. Like you & everyone, I’m free to agree and disagree with whatever post on here - there is no picking going on But I'm entitled to say a cut back hasn't been too bad without being accused to high fiving and thanking TFL. You are most certainly entitled to say a cut back hasn’t been bad of which I’ve not stopped anyone from saying - the difference here is the accusation of high fiving TfL is rather meek compared to accusing me of picking on you because I merely disagreed with you. |
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Post by Green Kitten on Apr 18, 2023 13:42:26 GMT
Considering how busy the 55s get at the first stop at Walthamstow sending a higher frequency route was the right choice (instead of the 48 which was 6bph, IIRC). Lea Bridge Road never seems to be heaving even in the peaks. The withdrawal of the 48 seems to have worked (but I really would appreciate a London Bridge to Bakers Arms link)!
The 4 seems to be carrying fresh air from Blackfriars to St. Paul's, the previous routing was more successful (especially as the 26 will be be removed from Waterloo Bridge soon).
I think more could be done with the 388. That and the 242 are routes that are not realising their full potential. A mix up of the 4, 242 and 388 could be looked into (I think the 242 would be more useful than the 388 to LB), but I'll save this for another thread.
Like with a previous post, I'm not sure what the point was of swapping the 73 and 390.
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 18, 2023 14:30:09 GMT
Unlikely I would say to have left altogether. More likely people who used to ride down to Ealing Broadway rather then taking the GWR are now taking the Elizabeth Line. Secondly realistically what alternatives? People in Southall only take a Uber now or overnight bought a car. Agree that there are far too many routes with dwindling passenger numbers approaching a dead end at Oxford Circus when they could go a little further down Oxford Street and stop outside the doors of all the shops, which was the great advantage of taking the bus rather than the tube to Oxford Street. I am not sure how far Oxford Street needs to decline before the various parties who clamoured for a reduction in bus numbers along Oxford Street realise their mistake, especially now that pedestrianisation is not going to happen anytime soon. Jace Tyrrell who was the head of The West End Company, the confederation of businesses along Regent and Oxford Street, gave multiple interviews to the media slating bus travel along Oxford Street in particular. It's the mindset that buses are essentially a pauper's wagon, and due to their normal clientele not using it to and from the shops, buses aren't useful to the West End. The biggest irony I gleam from that being the most used London bus route for almost a decade, the 25, served Oxford Street.  Generally these corporations need to get out of the biased thinking of buses being a nuisance and actually aid accessibility for all & increase footfall into places like Oxford Street. I just wish more affluent people stick up for bus routes they do use like those on the King's Road in Chelsea do consistently. It would help change mindsets towards bus travel and demonise it less in the public arena. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Apr 18, 2023 14:36:59 GMT
This has probably been said ad-nauseam but the current 23 is inane. Southern section should be helping the 9 especially on weekends but it's not doing a very good job at that given that it goes nowhere that useful at a reasonable speed (turns out that passengers don't like being dropped off on the far side of Marble Arch). Good on TfL for fixing this (even if it is to cut costs). The 73/390 swap still has me perplexed. The 390's frequency matches demand well down to Victoria but I feel that the 73 would enable more through journeys, at least to the end of Oxford Street. Dropping off before the Circus itself too is not ideal, a return to being able to get off at the John Lewis stand would be nice. At the moment the route feels like a dead-end and passengers loads most certainly show it as the bus empties out without picking up too many as it heads down TCR, though it is nice to get an empty seat from outside the side entrance to John Lewis. Would be interesting to see the passenger numbers on the Victoria-Oxford Circus section comparing when the 73 did it and now with the 390. The fact that the 23 doesn't go along Oxford Street like the 10 did has probably contributed to the decline and there's just not enough demand anymore for two routes between HPC and Hammersmith in addition to the 27,52 and 452. It would have seemed simpler to have cut the 390 back to Archway to Oxford Circus and left the 73 going to Victoria and in my experience all routes terminating at Oxford Circus from the east empty out before they get there as people find it quicker to get off and walk. Agreed with the reason why the current 23 never caught on.
If I'm not mistaken the reason why the 390 was chosen was because it had a lower frequency than the 73 and in fact I believe that it still does.
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 18, 2023 14:49:49 GMT
Fab idea for a thread, frank Thinking about the SE London Liz line changes (all anecdotal) 177 : seems to be coping OK without the 180, except during the day on Sunday, strangely - possibly needs a frequency uplift on this day. Greenwich Town Centre is a huge lure to tourists on the weekends, especially on a Sunday. The 177 does its best to cater to that, but locals also make shopping trips further up the route in Charlton and leisure trips to & from New Cross with its bars and other cultural attractions. Peckham is also becoming more culturally significant with its activities. I have experienced this first hand in the past and indeed have (foolishly) made the excruciating Sunday journey from Woolwich to New Cross for an event, ended up being 30 mins late. I was vocal in saying the 177 needed shorts from Charlton to Peckham to cater for the demand that was already there in Greenwich before the 180 reroute. With the London Marathon broadcasting the attractions of Greenwich nationally and further afield on Sunday, demand for the area on the weekends will likely show no sign of dissipating; quite likely the opposite. |
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Post by Green Kitten on Apr 18, 2023 15:00:50 GMT
The fact that the 23 doesn't go along Oxford Street like the 10 did has probably contributed to the decline and there's just not enough demand anymore for two routes between HPC and Hammersmith in addition to the 27,52 and 452. It would have seemed simpler to have cut the 390 back to Archway to Oxford Circus and left the 73 going to Victoria and in my experience all routes terminating at Oxford Circus from the east empty out before they get there as people find it quicker to get off and walk. Agreed with the reason why the current 23 never caught on.
If I'm not mistaken the reason why the 390 was chosen was because it had a lower frequency than the 73 and in fact I believe that it still does.
Was the frequency not increased when the route was extended? I distinctly remember this though I may be wrong! |
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Post by southlondonbus on Apr 18, 2023 15:28:49 GMT
Agreed with the reason why the current 23 never caught on. If I'm not mistaken the reason why the 390 was chosen was because it had a lower frequency than the 73 and in fact I believe that it still does.
Was the frequency not increased when the route was extended? I distinctly remember this though I may be wrong! It went to every 6 mins I believe. The 73 was probably still every 4-5 mins back then. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 18, 2023 15:42:17 GMT
Fab idea for a thread, frank Thinking about the SE London Liz line changes (all anecdotal) 177 : seems to be coping OK without the 180, except during the day on Sunday, strangely - possibly needs a frequency uplift on this day. Greenwich Town Centre is a huge lure to tourists on the weekends, especially on a Sunday. The 177 does its best to cater to that, but locals also make shopping trips further up the route in Charlton and leisure trips to & from New Cross with its bars and other cultural attractions. Peckham is also becoming more culturally significant with its activities. I have experienced this first hand in the past and indeed have (foolishly) made the excruciating Sunday journey from Woolwich to New Cross for an event, ended up being 30 mins late. I was vocal in saying the 177 needed shorts from Charlton to Peckham to cater for the demand that was already there in Greenwich before the 180 reroute. With the London Marathon broadcasting the attractions of Greenwich nationally and further afield on Sunday, demand for the area on the weekends will likely show no sign of dissipating; quite likely the opposite. I wonder if it might have been a good idea with the 129/180 changes if the 177 was diverted to Lewisham, and instead send the 129 to Peckham? This would also give the 129 a bit more purpose, as for many journeys the 108 or 188 will be quicker. A link from North Greenwich to the New Cross area could be useful too. |
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Post by enviroPB on Apr 18, 2023 15:56:35 GMT
Greenwich Town Centre is a huge lure to tourists on the weekends, especially on a Sunday. The 177 does its best to cater to that, but locals also make shopping trips further up the route in Charlton and leisure trips to & from New Cross with its bars and other cultural attractions. Peckham is also becoming more culturally significant with its activities. I have experienced this first hand in the past and indeed have (foolishly) made the excruciating Sunday journey from Woolwich to New Cross for an event, ended up being 30 mins late. I was vocal in saying the 177 needed shorts from Charlton to Peckham to cater for the demand that was already there in Greenwich before the 180 reroute. With the London Marathon broadcasting the attractions of Greenwich nationally and further afield on Sunday, demand for the area on the weekends will likely show no sign of dissipating; quite likely the opposite. I wonder if it might have been a good idea with the 129/180 changes if the 177 was diverted to Lewisham, and instead send the 129 to Peckham? This would also give the 129 a bit more purpose, as for many journeys the 108 or 188 will be quicker. A link from North Greenwich to the New Cross area could be useful too. I am careful to only give feedback as that's what the poster who created this thread asked for. Whilst I did suggest shorts for the 177, it was in relation to the pinchpoints currently experienced on the route on a Sunday. The 177 works well in its current form, however TfL should really look into giving the route extra resources on Sundays. It's nice to see other members express the same capacity concerns as me though. |
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Post by greenboy on Apr 18, 2023 17:30:16 GMT
The fact that the 23 doesn't go along Oxford Street like the 10 did has probably contributed to the decline and there's just not enough demand anymore for two routes between HPC and Hammersmith in addition to the 27,52 and 452. It would have seemed simpler to have cut the 390 back to Archway to Oxford Circus and left the 73 going to Victoria and in my experience all routes terminating at Oxford Circus from the east empty out before they get there as people find it quicker to get off and walk. Agreed with the reason why the current 23 never caught on.
If I'm not mistaken the reason why the 390 was chosen was because it had a lower frequency than the 73 and in fact I believe that it still does.
Yes I'm pretty sure that was the reason that the 390 replaced the 73 to Victoria, more savings to be made. |
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