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Post by PGAT on Jun 22, 2024 7:36:57 GMT
From a purely political perspective regardless of the merits of x, y or z solution which you detailed, you can quickly see why this is an issue.
A bus passenger might not make the link between a councillor opposing the chopping of trees and why their bus is so full and journey so uncomfortable (chances are they don't even get to vote for said councillor or even anyone in the council in question).
Meanwhile, the local resident will absolutely know who voted against 'saving the trees' (or other somesuch) if they care about it and is probably more likely to take the issue to the ballot box than the bus passenger.
If this about the SL5 again, the trees are next to the road and the only way to remove the risk is to remove the trees completely and clearly that's not going to happen. Trimming trees is only a short term solution anyway, obviously they grow back and there's the risk of high winds damaging trees and a stray branch coming through a top deck window could kill someone. I'm sure single deckers on the SL5 to Sutton will be fine anyway, presumably the service will be increased from four to five buses an hour? Usage is likely to decline anyway as the direct service from Croydon to Kingston and Heathrow will no longer be available. Neither of those latter points that you describe are desirable
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Post by lundnah on Jun 22, 2024 8:09:28 GMT
I see we've now reached 10 pages of comments debating the finer points of a proposal that hasn't been announced yet.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 22, 2024 8:22:40 GMT
If this about the SL5 again, the trees are next to the road and the only way to remove the risk is to remove the trees completely and clearly that's not going to happen. Trimming trees is only a short term solution anyway, obviously they grow back and there's the risk of high winds damaging trees and a stray branch coming through a top deck window could kill someone. I'm sure single deckers on the SL5 to Sutton will be fine anyway, presumably the service will be increased from four to five buses an hour? Usage is likely to decline anyway as the direct service from Croydon to Kingston and Heathrow will no longer be available. Neither of those latter points that you describe are desirable Reality is people are likely to seek alternative ways of getting from Croydon to Kingston such as Tramlink to Wimbledon and bus or train from there.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 22, 2024 8:23:22 GMT
I see we've now reached 10 pages of comments debating the finer points of a proposal that hasn't been announced yet. Well spottedđź‘Ź
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Post by southlondon413 on Jun 22, 2024 8:51:49 GMT
Neither of those latter points that you describe are desirable Reality is people are likely to seek alternative ways of getting from Croydon to Kingston such as Tramlink to Wimbledon and bus or train from there. They shouldn’t have to because of some nimby residents and a TfL which lacks the balls to stand up to them. The SL7 is an incredibly busy route and despite Croydon town centre falling into major disrepair there are still a lot of large office based businesses there as well as it being a major transport hub in south London. The extension should absolutely remain double decker otherwise it just becomes superfluous.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 22, 2024 8:57:08 GMT
Reality is people are likely to seek alternative ways of getting from Croydon to Kingston such as Tramlink to Wimbledon and bus or train from there. They shouldn’t have to because of some nimby residents and a TfL which lacks the balls to stand up to them. The SL7 is an incredibly busy route and despite Croydon town centre falling into major disrepair there are still a lot of large office based businesses there as well as it being a major transport hub in south London. The extension should absolutely remain double decker otherwise it just becomes superfluous. What nimby residents? I think 5bph with single deckers will be more than adequate between Croydon and Sutton and there's the 407 to fall back on.
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Post by PGAT on Jun 22, 2024 9:20:42 GMT
They shouldn’t have to because of some nimby residents and a TfL which lacks the balls to stand up to them. The SL7 is an incredibly busy route and despite Croydon town centre falling into major disrepair there are still a lot of large office based businesses there as well as it being a major transport hub in south London. The extension should absolutely remain double decker otherwise it just becomes superfluous. What nimby residents? I think 5bph with single deckers will be more than adequate between Croydon and Sutton and there's the 407 to fall back on. Increase to 5bph is a 25% increase in capacity while downgrading to single deck is roughly a halving of capacity whilst also making things a lot less cosy. It seems very silly to do that on a route which is experiencing very high levels of growth
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Post by southlondon413 on Jun 22, 2024 9:26:09 GMT
They shouldn’t have to because of some nimby residents and a TfL which lacks the balls to stand up to them. The SL7 is an incredibly busy route and despite Croydon town centre falling into major disrepair there are still a lot of large office based businesses there as well as it being a major transport hub in south London. The extension should absolutely remain double decker otherwise it just becomes superfluous. What nimby residents? I think 5bph with single deckers will be more than adequate between Croydon and Sutton and there's the 407 to fall back on. 4bph is barely adequate for the SL7 some evenings and that also has the 407 backing it up. I suggest you take a trip on the SL7 between North Cheam and Croydon at the evening peak to get a clue about the point everyone sane is making here. Single deckers unless matching the capacity aren’t adequate to replace double deckers. Get some high capacity 18m articulated single deckers, perhaps the Scania Fencer f18 when it launches, and we’ll talk. 10.2m single deckers are not suitable.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 22, 2024 9:33:23 GMT
What nimby residents? I think 5bph with single deckers will be more than adequate between Croydon and Sutton and there's the 407 to fall back on. Increase to 5bph is a 25% increase in capacity while downgrading to single deck is roughly a halving of capacity whilst also making things a lot less cosy. It seems very silly to do that on a route which is experiencing very high levels of growth That's theoretical depending on how many people go upstairs, for years one or two buses per hour were deemed adequate for the express service between Croydon and Sutton but now five per hour are not adequate? This is rather reminiscent of the 177/180 'problem' between Woolwich and Greenwich that we no longer hear anything about because the casatrophe predicted by some on here never materialised.
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Post by PGAT on Jun 22, 2024 9:35:32 GMT
Increase to 5bph is a 25% increase in capacity while downgrading to single deck is roughly a halving of capacity whilst also making things a lot less cosy. It seems very silly to do that on a route which is experiencing very high levels of growth That's theoretical depending on how many people go upstairs, for years one or two buses per hour were deemed adequate for the express service between Croydon and Sutton but now five per hour are not adequate? This is rather reminiscent of the 177/180 'problem' between Woolwich and Greenwich that we no longer hear anything about because the casatrophy predicted by some on here never materialised. One or two buses an hour were not adequate which is why the frequency was doubled twice and got decked. We’re seeing enormous volumes of passengers on the route so cutting capacity should not be on the agenda.
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Post by lj61nwc on Jun 22, 2024 9:47:12 GMT
Increase to 5bph is a 25% increase in capacity while downgrading to single deck is roughly a halving of capacity whilst also making things a lot less cosy. It seems very silly to do that on a route which is experiencing very high levels of growth That's theoretical depending on how many people go upstairs, for years one or two buses per hour were deemed adequate for the express service between Croydon and Sutton but now five per hour are not adequate? I understand what youre trying to say with latter point but the supply was upgraded to 4 bph almost a year ago now and there is constant useage of the service throughout the day over the past 10 months. I have used it almost 300-400 times since the increase in marketing and frequency so am only sharing what I have seen in person. Lower deck has all seats taken pretty much all the time, even before luggage rack were put in, upstairs is usually about a quarter full at minimum in the off peaks, peaks sometimes have people standing upstairs on the stairs but thats on and off depending on service being provided by 407 & 213 but almost always has 75% of seats taken(rest are taken up by schoolkids or adults with their bags on seats). TfL simply can't snatch away the supply and force people to use other transport or go back to their cars, that's the opposite of what Superloop is for. The trains operated by Southern already have short-formed services due to DFT and are a much costlier alternative to the bus. I think best case is for us to wait for the consultation to happen rather than us waste time debating on stuff that could or could not happen.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 22, 2024 10:03:52 GMT
That's theoretical depending on how many people go upstairs, for years one or two buses per hour were deemed adequate for the express service between Croydon and Sutton but now five per hour are not adequate? I understand what youre trying to say with latter point but the supply was upgraded to 4 bph almost a year ago now and there is constant useage of the service throughout the day over the past 10 months. I have used it almost 300-400 times since the increase in marketing and frequency so am only sharing what I have seen in person. Lower deck has all seats taken pretty much all the time, even before luggage rack were put in, upstairs is usually about a quarter full at minimum in the off peaks, peaks sometimes have people standing upstairs on the stairs but thats on and off depending on service being provided by 407 & 213 but almost always has 75% of seats taken(rest are taken up by schoolkids or adults with their bags on seats). TfL simply can't snatch away the supply and force people to use other transport or go back to their cars, that's the opposite of what Superloop is for. The trains operated by Southern already have short-formed services due to DFT and are a much costlier alternative to the bus. I think best case is for us to wait for the consultation to happen rather than us waste time debating on stuff that could or could not happen. Yes wait for the consultation but what seems likely to happen is a one bus per hour increase between Croydon and Sutton.
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Post by southlondon413 on Jun 22, 2024 12:32:38 GMT
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Post by PGAT on Jun 22, 2024 13:17:50 GMT
The same article also says the SL5 uses EVs…
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Post by matthieu1221 on Jun 22, 2024 13:41:26 GMT
From a purely political perspective regardless of the merits of x, y or z solution which you detailed, you can quickly see why this is an issue.
A bus passenger might not make the link between a councillor opposing the chopping of trees and why their bus is so full and journey so uncomfortable (chances are they don't even get to vote for said councillor or even anyone in the council in question).
Meanwhile, the local resident will absolutely know who voted against 'saving the trees' (or other somesuch) if they care about it and is probably more likely to take the issue to the ballot box than the bus passenger.
So you’re just highlighting the exact problem that exists in this country, a few militant residents holding thousands of others to ransom for an issue that is completely moronic. Frankly they should be ignored for the greater good. That would require some big picture thinking, which local councillors thinking of their seats are not very good at (and I suppose one could argue that they are meant to represent their wards, and not bus passengers). Which is why generally I think authority over more major roads should go to TfL but I don't think we'll be seeing that particularly soon.
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