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Post by vjaska on Jun 15, 2024 21:43:08 GMT
An upcoming consultation will be released for the following - Extend Route SL5 from Croydon Town Centre to Sutton Station via current Route SL7
- Add a new stop at Beddington Plough Lane
- Withdraw Route SL7 between Sutton Town Centre & West Croydon
- Add new stops on Route SL7 at Harlington Corner & Feltham (locations TBC)
For Feltham, it looks like Feltham Station judging by the map. Is there really a need for a Harlington Corner stop? I presume the Harlington Corner stop is so anyone switching from a SL7 to a SL9 doesn't have to go to Heathrow to do so as what would currently happen.
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Post by PGAT on Jun 15, 2024 21:54:26 GMT
How long will each route be if these were to go ahead?
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Post by vjaska on Jun 15, 2024 21:56:34 GMT
The biggest issues seem to be capacity and how to get the two routes to meet at Sutton so interchange is as seamless as possible. Now, I suspect the SL5 will remain single decker but it's difficult to say how seamless they'll make interchange between the two routes in Sutton.
Looking at how to make the interchange as seamless as possible without being a local, the Sutton Court Road stand could be turned over to a SL5 stop and SL7 stand and there is room to even expand the current bay. The SL5 would then terminate and stand at Sutton Station. SL7's alighting point would be the current Sutton Police Station with the SL5 also picking up here. So to clarify:
SL5 towards Sutton - stop at Sutton Court Road (interchange with SL7), terminate at Sutton Station SL5 towards Bromley - pickup at Sutton Station, pickup at Sutton Police Station (interchange with SL7)
SL7 towards Heathrow - pickup at Sutton Court Road (interchange with SL5), serve all current stops SL7 towards Sutton - terminate at Sutton Police Station (interchange with SL5), run to stand on Sutton Court Road
In addition, I'm not a fan of the Beddington, Plough Lane stop addition as I don't think it adds any real value. I think the Harlington Corner & Feltham ones should be looked into though.
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Post by COBO on Jun 15, 2024 21:57:11 GMT
So there’s finally a consultation
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Post by PGAT on Jun 15, 2024 21:59:10 GMT
The biggest issues seem to be capacity and how to get the two routes to meet at Sutton so interchange is as seamless as possible. Now, I suspect the SL5 will remain single decker but it's difficult to say how seamless they'll make interchange between the two routes in Sutton. Looking at how to make the interchange as seamless as possible without being a local, the Sutton Court Road stand could be turned over to a SL5 stop and SL7 stand and there is room to even expand the current bay. The SL5 would then terminate and stand at Sutton Station. SL7's alighting point would be the current Sutton Police Station with the SL5 also picking up here. So to clarify: SL5 towards Sutton - stop at Sutton Court Road (interchange with SL7), terminate at Sutton Station SL5 towards Bromley - pickup at Sutton Station, pickup at Sutton Police Station (interchange with SL7) SL7 towards Heathrow - pickup at Sutton Court Road (interchange with SL5), serve all current stops SL7 towards Sutton - terminate at Sutton Police Station (interchange with SL5), run to stand on Sutton Court Road In addition, I'm not a fan of the Beddington, Plough Lane stop addition as I don't think it adds any real value. I think the Harlington Corner & Feltham ones should be looked into though. Instead of converting Sutton Court Road into a bus stop why not stop both routes at the existing Chalk Pit Way?
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Post by vjaska on Jun 15, 2024 22:01:08 GMT
The biggest issues seem to be capacity and how to get the two routes to meet at Sutton so interchange is as seamless as possible. Now, I suspect the SL5 will remain single decker but it's difficult to say how seamless they'll make interchange between the two routes in Sutton. Looking at how to make the interchange as seamless as possible without being a local, the Sutton Court Road stand could be turned over to a SL5 stop and SL7 stand and there is room to even expand the current bay. The SL5 would then terminate and stand at Sutton Station. SL7's alighting point would be the current Sutton Police Station with the SL5 also picking up here. So to clarify: SL5 towards Sutton - stop at Sutton Court Road (interchange with SL7), terminate at Sutton Station SL5 towards Bromley - pickup at Sutton Station, pickup at Sutton Police Station (interchange with SL7) SL7 towards Heathrow - pickup at Sutton Court Road (interchange with SL5), serve all current stops SL7 towards Sutton - terminate at Sutton Police Station (interchange with SL5), run to stand on Sutton Court Road In addition, I'm not a fan of the Beddington, Plough Lane stop addition as I don't think it adds any real value. I think the Harlington Corner & Feltham ones should be looked into though. Instead of converting Sutton Court Road into a bus stop why not stop both routes at the existing Chalk Pit Way? It didn't look as roomy to me but I suppose you could do that too.
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Post by VMH2537 on Jun 15, 2024 22:12:47 GMT
The idea of these changes do make a lot of sense, but even just from the picture the OP has posted, the execution is very poor for many reasons. Firstly, from what the picture shows, the stop/stand arrangements in Sutton are completely wrong from what needs to happen. The SL7 really needs to go down to Sutton Station to connect to the Southern trains towards West Croydon (particularly as the SL5 isn't serving West Croydon), and it also means it can serve its existing stops in both directions. The Sutton Station stand has space for one more route. In comparison, the SL5 really shouldn't go to Sutton Station, as it would mean there wouldn't be same stop interchange between the two routes towards Heathrow. My suggestion would be for it to use a new stand on Cheam Road, just before the High Street pedestrian crossing (where there is currently some parking spaces perfect for a two bus stand), which means it would then be able to terminate and start at the Post Office/Police Station. It could even drop off at the stand, right next to the High Street. Another thing which doesn't make sense is the SL7s extra stop at Feltham. Currently, the SL7 is a significantly faster version of the 285, particularly due to the diversions it takes in comparison to the 285s routing. Adding a stop at Feltham Station would massively slow the route down, as it will have to follow the 285 on this section as opposed to its current route avoiding the area entirely. Personally, if any extra stop is necessary, I think a stop at Hanworth (at the Hounslow Road Hanworth stops) would be a much better idea. The stop would be on its existing LOR, and it would connect to the 285/490 towards Feltham. Extra capacity could be provided for connections at this stop to/from Feltham by decking the 490. For the SL5s extension, the most important point I have to make is that the SL5 has to be decked for these changes to make any sense. Having this section reverting to single deckers would be an appalling decision, and would lead to overcrowding occurring throughout the day. The Beddington stop is a good idea, but I would suggest also adding a stop at Waddon Station. The extra stop would provide connections to the station, the shops on Purley Way, the 289/439 towards Purley, and give a new link towards East Croydon from the area which currently does not exist. Now let me copy this post into my notes so I remember to write all of this in the consultation when it is released. I dont think TfL want to push people off the buses and onto the train, but all your other points are very valid. I think they avoid a stop at Waddon because there are two way bus can go between East Croydon and Beddington. TfL pushing people onto trains is nothing new. There was a thing called the Central London cuts over the years. Even if TfL were to do it, they will consider themselves mad as trains between Sutton and West Croydon are poorly spaced at services arriving a few minutes apart before turning to a large 25 minute gap.
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Post by matthieu1221 on Jun 16, 2024 0:27:58 GMT
The Hopper fare isn't going to be very much good for some journeys affected by this change.
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Post by rugbyref on Jun 16, 2024 7:29:08 GMT
So the 726 Dartford to Heathrow gets cut to Bromley to Heathrow. The route becomes X26 as is cut to Croydon to Heathrow. The route becomes SL7 and gets cut to Sutton to Heathrow.
To tfl and Khan ‘every journey matters’!
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Post by southlondonbus on Jun 16, 2024 7:30:49 GMT
For Feltham, it looks like Feltham Station judging by the map. Is there really a need for a Harlington Corner stop? I presume the Harlington Corner stop is so anyone switching from a SL7 to a SL9 doesn't have to go to Heathrow to do so as what would currently happen. Quite logical really and could also allow onward connections to the 81 and 222.
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Post by ibus246 on Jun 16, 2024 9:15:25 GMT
The Hopper fare isn't going to be very much good for some journeys affected by this change. Yes true. I got on an early morning SL7 in Carshalton to head to the airport last Saturday morning at about 5.30am. The upper deck was not only steamed! But was full of airport workers most of whom alighted at Hatton X. I was surprised people make that trip daily. But if they are going back from the airport to Croydon (which is where I assume they boarded) then they would have to pay twice in one direction
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Post by ibus246 on Jun 16, 2024 9:18:12 GMT
Is there really a need for the SL5 to serve the Bromley high street stop and then the immediate next stop Bromley south station - it’s supposed to be quick. Both stops are easily within walking distance so should be one or the other as is the case now
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Post by TB123 on Jun 16, 2024 9:33:47 GMT
Is there really a need for the SL5 to serve the Bromley high street stop and then the immediate next stop Bromley south station - it’s supposed to be quick. Both stops are easily within walking distance so should be one or the other as is the case now Slightly selfishly I like that idea - when I pass through Bromley I tend to stop in Pret and grab a coffee then get the SL5 back to Croydon. No need to walk as far down the hill! Do agree though it probably should be one or the other.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jun 16, 2024 10:24:29 GMT
The Hopper fare isn't going to be very much good for some journeys affected by this change. Yes true. I got on an early morning SL7 in Carshalton to head to the airport last Saturday morning at about 5.30am. The upper deck was not only steamed! But was full of airport workers most of whom alighted at Hatton X. I was surprised people make that trip daily. But if they are going back from the airport to Croydon (which is where I assume they boarded) then they would have to pay twice in one direction Whilst I understand with the higher freqs now and the traffic in WP, I do think the lack of any overlap will definitely raise comment. For example the loss of the link from Cheam to Carshalton and Croydon aswell as Kingston to Croydon.
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Post by YY13VKP on Jun 16, 2024 10:37:07 GMT
Not a fan of these changes at all and I personally think these changes are completely unnecessary. I can see the reason why TfL have proposed them - to even out the length of both routes seeing as the SL7 is currently the longest route in London whereas the SL5 can take under half an hour end to end at times, and also to enable the SL7 to use electrics from it's next contract. But the SL7 has proven to be a long-standing popular connection between Croydon, Kingston and Heathrow and this move would, IMO, drive passenger numbers down. Whilst Sutton has a good interchange with many other local bus routes, it's nowhere near as good of an interchange as East Croydon Station. As vjaska mentions, I don't think a stop at Plough Lane would add any real value to the area, though I do like the idea of an SL7 stop at Feltham Station, and Harlington Corner would also enable people to change onto the SL9 without the need to go all the way into Heathrow Central Bus Station. Personally I'd keep both routes as they are, but add the stops in the SL7 at Feltham Station and Harlington Corner which wouldn't add too much time on to existing journey times given the buses would only be taking a slight detour.
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