|
Post by abellion on Jun 16, 2024 10:54:09 GMT
Not a fan of these changes at all and I personally think these changes are completely unnecessary. I can see the reason why TfL have proposed them - to even out the length of both routes seeing as the SL7 is currently the longest route in London whereas the SL5 can take under half an hour end to end at times, and also to enable the SL7 to use electrics from it's next contract. But the SL7 has proven to be a long-standing popular connection between Croydon, Kingston and Heathrow and this move would, IMO, drive passenger numbers down. Whilst Sutton has a good interchange with many other local bus routes, it's nowhere near as good of an interchange as East Croydon Station. As vjaska mentions, I don't think a stop at Plough Lane would add any real value to the area, though I do like the idea of an SL7 stop at Feltham Station, and Harlington Corner would also enable people to change onto the SL9 without the need to go all the way into Heathrow Central Bus Station. Personally I'd keep both routes as they are, but add the stops in the SL7 at Feltham Station and Harlington Corner which wouldn't add too much time on to existing journey times given the buses would only be taking a slight detour. Harlington Corner should be added for sure, I thought Hanworth Uxbridge Road or Harlington Road East could be options as they are close enough to Feltham for people who want Kingston to get a 285 or 490 there without sending the SL7 on a detour but I guess serving the main area directly would be more useful.
|
|
|
Post by matthieu1221 on Jun 16, 2024 13:59:43 GMT
The Hopper fare isn't going to be very much good for some journeys affected by this change. Yes true. I got on an early morning SL7 in Carshalton to head to the airport last Saturday morning at about 5.30am. The upper deck was not only steamed! But was full of airport workers most of whom alighted at Hatton X. I was surprised people make that trip daily. But if they are going back from the airport to Croydon (which is where I assume they boarded) then they would have to pay twice in one direction Short of abandoning the change (which would be ideal), or providing an overlap (not going to happen), the least TfL could do is configure Hopper to be longer on Superloop routes or at least when interchanging between these two.
Previous consultations have raised interchanges being beyond the 1 hour Hopper fare limit... which TfL then provided the solution of passengers having to fill out a form or something like that to get a manual refund... needless to say I don't think many people took that up and I wonder if they even still provide that service today.
|
|
|
Post by evergreenadam on Jun 16, 2024 14:47:41 GMT
The Hopper fare isn't going to be very much good for some journeys affected by this change. Yes true. I got on an early morning SL7 in Carshalton to head to the airport last Saturday morning at about 5.30am. The upper deck was not only steamed! But was full of airport workers most of whom alighted at Hatton X. I was surprised people make that trip daily. But if they are going back from the airport to Croydon (which is where I assume they boarded) then they would have to pay twice in one direction Surely there is a case to say that long distance riders on the SL7 are currently getting a very good deal for their £1.75 for a Croydon to Heathrow journey including the option of a free transfer to the tube at Hatton Cross for Heathrow Airport Terminals. Other Londoners can only dream of that. I doubt many SL7 users tap in again on the same bus when their journey exceeds the hopper fare time limit, so TfL are effectively restructuring the network in a way which reduces the potential for overriding from occurring in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by mkay315 on Jun 16, 2024 14:49:59 GMT
Well well looks like the proposed map they released for superloop 2 regarding the SL5 and SL7 was something that the transport towers were planning and it wasn't an error as some initially thought
|
|
|
Post by PGAT on Jun 16, 2024 15:00:57 GMT
Well well looks like the proposed map they released for superloop 2 regarding the SL5 and SL7 was something that the transport towers were planning and it wasn't an error as some initially thought Of course it wasn’t an error, they could’ve copy+pasted the original Superloop map so the split at Sutton was a very conscious decision
|
|
|
Post by lj61nwc on Jun 16, 2024 15:02:45 GMT
Yes true. I got on an early morning SL7 in Carshalton to head to the airport last Saturday morning at about 5.30am. The upper deck was not only steamed! But was full of airport workers most of whom alighted at Hatton X. I was surprised people make that trip daily. But if they are going back from the airport to Croydon (which is where I assume they boarded) then they would have to pay twice in one direction Surely there is a case to say that long distance riders on the SL7 are currently getting a very good deal for their £1.75 for a Croydon to Heathrow journey including the option of a free transfer to the tube at Hatton Cross for Heathrow Airport Terminals. Other Londoners can only dream of that. I doubt many SL7 users tap in again on the same bus when their journey exceeds the hopper fare time limit, so TfL are effectively restructuring the network in a way which reduces the potential for overriding from occurring in the first place. What logic is that?? The reason other londoners can only dream of such long bus route is because they have the tube. All of the area between the two termini have no access to tube that why its so successful. Such a stupid reason to separate the bus fares for this route or to make it shorter.
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Jun 16, 2024 18:25:13 GMT
Unless the SL5 is converting to double deckers this just doesn’t work for me. There are tons of through passengers on the SL7 to Croydon and I’m not sure forcing them to change bus is ideal. I was on an SL7 on Wednesday which was full to the front door, only myself and two other passengers got off in Sutton and no one waiting was able to board. They absolutely will need a shared stop in Sutton to allow easy change between vehicles in both directions. I wont use it anymore if change goes ahead, might as well get train now for that inconvenience, no SL5 from West Croydon as well, either have to get 407 to Beddington/Sutton or find my way to East Croydon A journey I have to do occasionally is Coulsdon to Kingston - my preferred route currently is 466, 127, SL7. Assuming these changes take place, I’ll be instead using 466, tram (to Wimbledon) then train. Unfortunate, as I do like to support the buses when I can.
|
|
|
Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 16, 2024 18:41:27 GMT
Yes true. I got on an early morning SL7 in Carshalton to head to the airport last Saturday morning at about 5.30am. The upper deck was not only steamed! But was full of airport workers most of whom alighted at Hatton X. I was surprised people make that trip daily. But if they are going back from the airport to Croydon (which is where I assume they boarded) then they would have to pay twice in one direction Surely there is a case to say that long distance riders on the SL7 are currently getting a very good deal for their £1.75 for a Croydon to Heathrow journey including the option of a free transfer to the tube at Hatton Cross for Heathrow Airport Terminals. Other Londoners can only dream of that. I doubt many SL7 users tap in again on the same bus when their journey exceeds the hopper fare time limit, so TfL are effectively restructuring the network in a way which reduces the potential for overriding from occurring in the first place. You raise a very good point, the SL7 has been an exception and not a rule and notably the bottom line is that it needs to get shorter. It seems to have worked fine when it was an every 30 minutes 12m single decker route but times have changed now where it's an every 15 minute double decker route that's also very clearly struggling to operate reliably now. It's no longer intended for long journeys but also needs to cater for the shorter journeys that take place. There'll always be the argument that you can't just ditch its long term users, but despite there's the reported crowds that use it end to end for the shifts they're now likely to make only a small % of the SL7's overall usage and resources need to be focussed in on where the majority of passengers are likely to want to go. While I'm sure the feasibility of making it a zero emission route certainly played a part on the decision to shorten it there's no denying that something now also needs to be done about its unreliability and this is probably the best solution to the majority of its users. Although attention needs to also be given to the SL5, a slap bang extension onto the route would be insufficient replacing a double decker route and at a minimum it would need to be made a double decker route itself to at least cover the new extended section, and from reports it sounds like the rest of the route would benefit from being made double decker too.
|
|
|
Post by DT 11 on Jun 16, 2024 19:06:05 GMT
An upcoming consultation will be released for the following - Extend Route SL5 from Croydon Town Centre to Sutton Station via current Route SL7
- Add a new stop at Beddington Plough Lane
- Withdraw Route SL7 between Sutton Town Centre & West Croydon
- Add new stops on Route SL7 at Harlington Corner & Feltham (locations TBC)
Interesting just like it was on the proposed map. As mentioned by a few already they SL5 will need double deckers. In addition I like the idea of proposed new stops. In addition I think it would make sense to send the SL5 via West Croydon to maintain to link.
|
|
|
Post by DT 11 on Jun 16, 2024 19:39:09 GMT
From reading many comments I am in two minds about these changes.
The SL7 has had many complaints on this group recently since it was given a frequency increase.
When I used to use this route from Croydon to Kingston in the past when it was running with single deckers the bus would fill up at both West & East Croydon with large amount of passengers alighting at Kingston Station, I can imagine over the years numbers have increased.
An extension of the SL5 is welcome however Sutton is downgrade for Route SL7. Croydon is a good interchange because of the many transport links.
The new proposed bus stops are a good move. I have always thought Feltham should have a stop.
This may make the SL9 quite long but why not extend that to Kingston and truncate the SL7 to Kingston.
|
|
|
Post by southlondon413 on Jun 16, 2024 19:44:43 GMT
Surely there is a case to say that long distance riders on the SL7 are currently getting a very good deal for their £1.75 for a Croydon to Heathrow journey including the option of a free transfer to the tube at Hatton Cross for Heathrow Airport Terminals. Other Londoners can only dream of that. I doubt many SL7 users tap in again on the same bus when their journey exceeds the hopper fare time limit, so TfL are effectively restructuring the network in a way which reduces the potential for overriding from occurring in the first place. You raise a very good point, the SL7 has been an exception and not a rule and notably the bottom line is that it needs to get shorter. It seems to have worked fine when it was an every 30 minutes 12m single decker route but times have changed now where it's an every 15 minute double decker route that's also very clearly struggling to operate reliably now. It's no longer intended for long journeys but also needs to cater for the shorter journeys that take place. There'll always be the argument that you can't just ditch its long term users, but despite there's the reported crowds that use it end to end for the shifts they're now likely to make only a small % of the SL7's overall usage and resources need to be focussed in on where the majority of passengers are likely to want to go. While I'm sure the feasibility of making it a zero emission route certainly played a part on the decision to shorten it there's no denying that something now also needs to be done about its unreliability and this is probably the best solution to the majority of its users. Although attention needs to also be given to the SL5, a slap bang extension onto the route would be insufficient replacing a double decker route and at a minimum it would need to be made a double decker route itself to at least cover the new extended section, and from reports it sounds like the rest of the route would benefit from being made double decker too. The SL7 is very much a victim of its own success. I still remember when it was hourly and in 2007 when Metrobus were the ones advocating for it to increase to every 30 minutes. I can clearly remember the day when the driver stopped at the then named Sutton Post Office stop and did a show of hands as to who would like an every 30 minute service. I never believed that a 15 minute service was right and frankly the route has tanked in reliability since it increased. What was once a clockwork every 30 minutes give or take a few minutes has now become one bus, then another 5 minutes later and nothing for 25 minutes. Too little regulation, too little acknowledgement of problems and too much pressure on what easily could have been one of London’s most reliable bus routes. Even then I don’t see this split as being suitable. It would be better to have a new route between Kingston and Heathrow as that, in my opinion and experience, has become the least used part in recent years. Or even a crossover as Kingston to Wimbledon via New Malden.
|
|
|
Post by DT 11 on Jun 16, 2024 19:59:24 GMT
Is there really a need for the SL5 to serve the Bromley high street stop and then the immediate next stop Bromley south station - it’s supposed to be quick. Both stops are easily within walking distance so should be one or the other as is the case now SL5 towards Croydon only serves Bromley North Station, Bromley Civic Centre & Bromley South Station the whole point of that is to make easy interchange with Route SL3 that stops on Widmore Road there is definitely no need to add the stop Bromley High Street / The Mall towards Croydon the bus will stop at 4 consecutive stops. In the other direction it serves Bromley South Station & Elmfield Road / The Mall which actually makes sense because people can get off for the Shopping Centre.
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Jun 16, 2024 20:00:05 GMT
You raise a very good point, the SL7 has been an exception and not a rule and notably the bottom line is that it needs to get shorter. It seems to have worked fine when it was an every 30 minutes 12m single decker route but times have changed now where it's an every 15 minute double decker route that's also very clearly struggling to operate reliably now. It's no longer intended for long journeys but also needs to cater for the shorter journeys that take place. There'll always be the argument that you can't just ditch its long term users, but despite there's the reported crowds that use it end to end for the shifts they're now likely to make only a small % of the SL7's overall usage and resources need to be focussed in on where the majority of passengers are likely to want to go. While I'm sure the feasibility of making it a zero emission route certainly played a part on the decision to shorten it there's no denying that something now also needs to be done about its unreliability and this is probably the best solution to the majority of its users. Although attention needs to also be given to the SL5, a slap bang extension onto the route would be insufficient replacing a double decker route and at a minimum it would need to be made a double decker route itself to at least cover the new extended section, and from reports it sounds like the rest of the route would benefit from being made double decker too. The SL7 is very much a victim of its own success. I still remember when it was hourly and in 2007 when Metrobus were the ones advocating for it to increase to every 30 minutes. I can clearly remember the day when the driver stopped at the then named Sutton Post Office stop and did a show of hands as to who would like an every 30 minute service. I never believed that a 15 minute service was right and frankly the route has tanked in reliability since it increased. What was once a clockwork every 30 minutes give or take a few minutes has now become one bus, then another 5 minutes later and nothing for 25 minutes. Too little regulation, too little acknowledgement of problems and too much pressure on what easily could have been one of London’s most reliable bus routes. Even then I don’t see this split as being suitable. It would be better to have a new route between Kingston and Heathrow as that, in my opinion and experience, has become the least used part in recent years. Or even a crossover as Kingston to Wimbledon via New Malden. I'm the same and remember it being SD every hour (hard to believe I know) and I would always say that yes Heathrow has big demand no question, but I still think alot of the demand is for cross Sutton links and the faster link from Sutton to WP, New Malden and Kingston as opposed to the 50 mins slog on the 213, and to maybe a lesser extend the 407 versus the SL7. Therefore just a Kingston to Croydon route might be quite good.
|
|
|
Post by southlondon413 on Jun 16, 2024 20:11:48 GMT
The SL7 is very much a victim of its own success. I still remember when it was hourly and in 2007 when Metrobus were the ones advocating for it to increase to every 30 minutes. I can clearly remember the day when the driver stopped at the then named Sutton Post Office stop and did a show of hands as to who would like an every 30 minute service. I never believed that a 15 minute service was right and frankly the route has tanked in reliability since it increased. What was once a clockwork every 30 minutes give or take a few minutes has now become one bus, then another 5 minutes later and nothing for 25 minutes. Too little regulation, too little acknowledgement of problems and too much pressure on what easily could have been one of London’s most reliable bus routes. Even then I don’t see this split as being suitable. It would be better to have a new route between Kingston and Heathrow as that, in my opinion and experience, has become the least used part in recent years. Or even a crossover as Kingston to Wimbledon via New Malden. I'm the same and remember it being SD every hour (hard to believe I know) and I would always say that yes Heathrow has big demand no question, but I still think alot of the demand is for cross Sutton links and the faster link from Sutton to WP, New Malden and Kingston as opposed to the 50 mins slog on the 213, and to maybe a lesser extend the 407 versus the SL7. Therefore just a Kingston to Croydon route might be quite good. Yeah, I wouldn’t say the Kingston to Heathrow section isn’t well used but it’s noticeable when the majority of passengers are using the route to travel to / from Croydon and Kingston for shopping or work. The bus can easily be full and suddenly be 3/4 empty by Wood Street. A high capacity 12m single decker could easily scoop up the demand on that section and if there was scope then extending it to Wimbledon would assist both the 57 and 131 in some ways.
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Jun 16, 2024 20:19:42 GMT
I'm the same and remember it being SD every hour (hard to believe I know) and I would always say that yes Heathrow has big demand no question, but I still think alot of the demand is for cross Sutton links and the faster link from Sutton to WP, New Malden and Kingston as opposed to the 50 mins slog on the 213, and to maybe a lesser extend the 407 versus the SL7. Therefore just a Kingston to Croydon route might be quite good. Yeah, I wouldn’t say the Kingston to Heathrow section isn’t well used but it’s noticeable when the majority of passengers are using the route to travel to / from Croydon and Kingston for shopping or work. The bus can easily be full and suddenly be 3/4 empty by Wood Street. A high capacity 12m single decker could easily scoop up the demand on that section and if there was scope then extending it to Wimbledon would assist both the 57 and 131 in some ways. I do think it can be seen as a bit of a kick in teeth of people of the Sutton Borough who arguably are the ones who campaigned for the route to even still be around. Certainly in the 90s there was a knife hanging over the 726 and in 2005 it was largely through campaigning by MPs that Carshalton, Cheam, North Cheam and Worcester Park got retained as stops.
|
|