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Post by SILENCED on Jun 16, 2024 21:00:17 GMT
From reading many comments I am in two minds about these changes. The SL7 has had many complaints on this group recently since it was given a frequency increase. When I used to use this route from Croydon to Kingston in the past when it was running with single deckers the bus would fill up at both West & East Croydon with large amount of passengers alighting at Kingston Station, I can imagine over the years numbers have increased. An extension of the SL5 is welcome however Sutton is downgrade for Route SL7. Croydon is a good interchange because of the many transport links. The new proposed bus stops are a good move. I have always thought Feltham should have a stop. This may make the SL9 quite long but why not extend that to Kingston and truncate the SL7 to Kingston. Personally the Croydon - Kingston link is what I see as the most important ... Really needs to be a single route. Whether that be the SL5 or SL7 I am not that fussed.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2024 22:10:05 GMT
Surely there is a case to say that long distance riders on the SL7 are currently getting a very good deal for their £1.75 for a Croydon to Heathrow journey including the option of a free transfer to the tube at Hatton Cross for Heathrow Airport Terminals. Other Londoners can only dream of that. I doubt many SL7 users tap in again on the same bus when their journey exceeds the hopper fare time limit, so TfL are effectively restructuring the network in a way which reduces the potential for overriding from occurring in the first place. What logic is that?? The reason other londoners can only dream of such long bus route is because they have the tube. All of the area between the two termini have no access to tube that why its so successful. Such a stupid reason to separate the bus fares for this route or to make it shorter. Well that isn't quite true - the only reason Londoners can only dream of such long routes is because congestion has been allowed to continue rising decade upon decade which has resulted in bus routes being cut back and back. The tube doesn't come into that particular issue. The reason the remaining small crop of longer routes still exist is because, by and large, the corridors they run on do not have the same levels of congestion issues.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2024 22:14:49 GMT
You raise a very good point, the SL7 has been an exception and not a rule and notably the bottom line is that it needs to get shorter. It seems to have worked fine when it was an every 30 minutes 12m single decker route but times have changed now where it's an every 15 minute double decker route that's also very clearly struggling to operate reliably now. It's no longer intended for long journeys but also needs to cater for the shorter journeys that take place. There'll always be the argument that you can't just ditch its long term users, but despite there's the reported crowds that use it end to end for the shifts they're now likely to make only a small % of the SL7's overall usage and resources need to be focussed in on where the majority of passengers are likely to want to go. While I'm sure the feasibility of making it a zero emission route certainly played a part on the decision to shorten it there's no denying that something now also needs to be done about its unreliability and this is probably the best solution to the majority of its users. Although attention needs to also be given to the SL5, a slap bang extension onto the route would be insufficient replacing a double decker route and at a minimum it would need to be made a double decker route itself to at least cover the new extended section, and from reports it sounds like the rest of the route would benefit from being made double decker too. The SL7 is very much a victim of its own success. I still remember when it was hourly and in 2007 when Metrobus were the ones advocating for it to increase to every 30 minutes. I can clearly remember the day when the driver stopped at the then named Sutton Post Office stop and did a show of hands as to who would like an every 30 minute service. I never believed that a 15 minute service was right and frankly the route has tanked in reliability since it increased. What was once a clockwork every 30 minutes give or take a few minutes has now become one bus, then another 5 minutes later and nothing for 25 minutes. Too little regulation, too little acknowledgement of problems and too much pressure on what easily could have been one of London’s most reliable bus routes. Even then I don’t see this split as being suitable. It would be better to have a new route between Kingston and Heathrow as that, in my opinion and experience, has become the least used part in recent years. Or even a crossover as Kingston to Wimbledon via New Malden. Indeed, it's definitely a victim of it's own success. I remember it well when it was hourly under Metrobus and loadings were good (was no issues in getting a seat on the Omnicitys) but no where near the days of crammed in Quality Line single deckers under the 30 minute frequency. I agree that in some cases, a higher frequency can actually cause problems (the 35 is a good case that I do like to bang on about) - that said, whilst I do believe 15 minutes is right, the issues you mentioned shouldn't be ignored and need to be not just acknowledged but rectified pretty quickly.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2024 22:22:47 GMT
A few people mention a split at Kingston on the SL7 rather than Sutton and so maybe a solution would simply be to extend the SL5 from Croydon to Kingston and keep the SL7 from Kingston/a different terminal to Heathrow but only on the basis the SL5 goes double deck as a result. Croydon to Kingston is currently timed at about 1h 10 minutes whilst the current SL5 is roughly 35 minutes. This would leave the new SL5 with a lower overall running time compared to the current SL7. The Beddington, Plough Lane stop wouldn't be introduced whilst on the new SL7, both the Feltham & Harlington Corner stops would be introduced.
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Post by southlondon413 on Jun 16, 2024 22:28:55 GMT
The SL7 is very much a victim of its own success. I still remember when it was hourly and in 2007 when Metrobus were the ones advocating for it to increase to every 30 minutes. I can clearly remember the day when the driver stopped at the then named Sutton Post Office stop and did a show of hands as to who would like an every 30 minute service. I never believed that a 15 minute service was right and frankly the route has tanked in reliability since it increased. What was once a clockwork every 30 minutes give or take a few minutes has now become one bus, then another 5 minutes later and nothing for 25 minutes. Too little regulation, too little acknowledgement of problems and too much pressure on what easily could have been one of London’s most reliable bus routes. Even then I don’t see this split as being suitable. It would be better to have a new route between Kingston and Heathrow as that, in my opinion and experience, has become the least used part in recent years. Or even a crossover as Kingston to Wimbledon via New Malden. Indeed, it's definitely a victim of it's own success. I remember it well when it was hourly under Metrobus and loadings were good (was no issues in getting a seat on the Omnicitys) but no where near the days of crammed in Quality Line single deckers under the 30 minute frequency. I agree that in some cases, a higher frequency can actually cause problems (the 35 is a good case that I do like to bang on about) - that said, whilst I do believe 15 minutes is right, the issues you mentioned shouldn't be ignored and need to be not just acknowledged but rectified pretty quickly. It didn’t help that Quality Line ironically had a set of vehicles that were far from quality with vehicles entirely unsuitable for the loadings used far too often. The worst experience I’ve had in years of using the x26 was an OV crammed to the doors, middle of summer at 30 degrees. Thankfully I stood at the rear doors so there was some fresh air between stops but I almost passed out it was that hot and cramped. It’s just a shame that rather than addressing the issues TfL seem to think they can be resolved by cutting it back. Why is it that a 30 minute service can run like clockwork most of the time but at double the frequency it’s terrible. If this is the only solution that TfL has mooted then I don’t want to see what they rejected. I don’t often both with replying to consultations as I see them as a waste of time but I will make a rare exception for this one.
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Post by matthieu1221 on Jun 16, 2024 23:46:50 GMT
Yes true. I got on an early morning SL7 in Carshalton to head to the airport last Saturday morning at about 5.30am. The upper deck was not only steamed! But was full of airport workers most of whom alighted at Hatton X. I was surprised people make that trip daily. But if they are going back from the airport to Croydon (which is where I assume they boarded) then they would have to pay twice in one direction Surely there is a case to say that long distance riders on the SL7 are currently getting a very good deal for their £1.75 for a Croydon to Heathrow journey including the option of a free transfer to the tube at Hatton Cross for Heathrow Airport Terminals. Other Londoners can only dream of that. I doubt many SL7 users tap in again on the same bus when their journey exceeds the hopper fare time limit, so TfL are effectively restructuring the network in a way which reduces the potential for overriding from occurring in the first place. What do you mean by tapping again on the same bus when the journey exceeds the Hopper fare limit? That has never been required?
As long as you tap on before 60 minutes elapses from your first tap you can stay on as long as you want on that last bus?
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Post by twobellstogo on Jun 17, 2024 6:17:01 GMT
Indeed, it's definitely a victim of it's own success. I remember it well when it was hourly under Metrobus and loadings were good (was no issues in getting a seat on the Omnicitys) but no where near the days of crammed in Quality Line single deckers under the 30 minute frequency. I agree that in some cases, a higher frequency can actually cause problems (the 35 is a good case that I do like to bang on about) - that said, whilst I do believe 15 minutes is right, the issues you mentioned shouldn't be ignored and need to be not just acknowledged but rectified pretty quickly. It didn’t help that Quality Line ironically had a set of vehicles that were far from quality with vehicles entirely unsuitable for the loadings used far too often. The worst experience I’ve had in years of using the x26 was an OV crammed to the doors, middle of summer at 30 degrees. Thankfully I stood at the rear doors so there was some fresh air between stops but I almost passed out it was that hot and cramped. It’s just a shame that rather than addressing the issues TfL seem to think they can be resolved by cutting it back. Why is it that a 30 minute service can run like clockwork most of the time but at double the frequency it’s terrible. If this is the only solution that TfL has mooted then I don’t want to see what they rejected. I don’t often both with replying to consultations as I see them as a waste of time but I will make a rare exception for this one. I think TfL may find a number of complaints heading their way about the loss of the direct Croydon - Kingston link, and personally I’d have split the SL7 at Kingston, leaving SL7 as Croydon to Kingston, and a new SL11 from Heathrow to Kingston, and then maybe onwards to create an express 71 to Chessington, and as a result leave the SL5 alone.
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Post by southlondonbus on Jun 17, 2024 6:59:20 GMT
The SL7 is very much a victim of its own success. I still remember when it was hourly and in 2007 when Metrobus were the ones advocating for it to increase to every 30 minutes. I can clearly remember the day when the driver stopped at the then named Sutton Post Office stop and did a show of hands as to who would like an every 30 minute service. I never believed that a 15 minute service was right and frankly the route has tanked in reliability since it increased. What was once a clockwork every 30 minutes give or take a few minutes has now become one bus, then another 5 minutes later and nothing for 25 minutes. Too little regulation, too little acknowledgement of problems and too much pressure on what easily could have been one of London’s most reliable bus routes. Even then I don’t see this split as being suitable. It would be better to have a new route between Kingston and Heathrow as that, in my opinion and experience, has become the least used part in recent years. Or even a crossover as Kingston to Wimbledon via New Malden. Indeed, it's definitely a victim of it's own success. I remember it well when it was hourly under Metrobus and loadings were good (was no issues in getting a seat on the Omnicitys) but no where near the days of crammed in Quality Line single deckers under the 30 minute frequency. I agree that in some cases, a higher frequency can actually cause problems (the 35 is a good case that I do like to bang on about) - that said, whilst I do believe 15 minutes is right, the issues you mentioned shouldn't be ignored and need to be not just acknowledged but rectified pretty quickly. Another route iv always found to be less reliable with a higher freq is the 80. From a steady 10 mins freq it now regularly comes in pairs or within a couple of mins of each other with then a gap.
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Post by DT 11 on Jun 17, 2024 8:13:38 GMT
From reading many comments I am in two minds about these changes. The SL7 has had many complaints on this group recently since it was given a frequency increase. When I used to use this route from Croydon to Kingston in the past when it was running with single deckers the bus would fill up at both West & East Croydon with large amount of passengers alighting at Kingston Station, I can imagine over the years numbers have increased. An extension of the SL5 is welcome however Sutton is downgrade for Route SL7. Croydon is a good interchange because of the many transport links. The new proposed bus stops are a good move. I have always thought Feltham should have a stop. This may make the SL9 quite long but why not extend that to Kingston and truncate the SL7 to Kingston. Personally the Croydon - Kingston link is what I see as the most important ... Really needs to be a single route. Whether that be the SL5 or SL7 I am not that fussed. I completely agree about the Croydon to Kingston Link… overall if this change happens it is going to force passengers to use the Tram to Wimbledon and use the 57, 131 or the National Rail. There is only one direct link from Croydon to Kingston and Sutton already has the 213.
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Post by busman on Jun 17, 2024 13:45:03 GMT
From reading many comments I am in two minds about these changes. The SL7 has had many complaints on this group recently since it was given a frequency increase. When I used to use this route from Croydon to Kingston in the past when it was running with single deckers the bus would fill up at both West & East Croydon with large amount of passengers alighting at Kingston Station, I can imagine over the years numbers have increased. An extension of the SL5 is welcome however Sutton is downgrade for Route SL7. Croydon is a good interchange because of the many transport links. The new proposed bus stops are a good move. I have always thought Feltham should have a stop. This may make the SL9 quite long but why not extend that to Kingston and truncate the SL7 to Kingston. Completely agree with most of this, but not sure about the SL9 reference. I assume you meant extending the SL5 to Kingston? That would be a huge win for Bromley residents, would allow for same stop interchange in Kingston and maintains the Kingston-Croydon link. Would need decking for sure. The proposed SL7 stop at Harlington Corner would be great as it enables much faster journeys by chopping out Heathrow. You can catch an earlier connecting bus and save 10-20 minutes on a through journey between SL7, SL9 and other routes.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 17, 2024 15:09:14 GMT
From reading many comments I am in two minds about these changes. The SL7 has had many complaints on this group recently since it was given a frequency increase. When I used to use this route from Croydon to Kingston in the past when it was running with single deckers the bus would fill up at both West & East Croydon with large amount of passengers alighting at Kingston Station, I can imagine over the years numbers have increased. An extension of the SL5 is welcome however Sutton is downgrade for Route SL7. Croydon is a good interchange because of the many transport links. The new proposed bus stops are a good move. I have always thought Feltham should have a stop. This may make the SL9 quite long but why not extend that to Kingston and truncate the SL7 to Kingston. Completely agree with most of this, but not sure about the SL9 reference. I assume you meant extending the SL5 to Kingston? That would be a huge win for Bromley residents, would allow for same stop interchange in Kingston and maintains the Kingston-Croydon link. Would need decking for sure. The proposed SL7 stop at Harlington Corner would be great as it enables much faster journeys by chopping out Heathrow. You can catch an earlier connecting bus and save 10-20 minutes on a through journey between SL7, SL9 and other routes. I suggested that further up the page and it should be doable - the SL5 is roughly 35 minutes whilst Croydon to Kingston is roughly 1h 10 minutes so would still end up have a less overall running time than the current SL7 but the crux, as you and several of us mention, would be that the SL5 would have to decked with the added benefit of given a welcome capacity boost to the current SL5 section. I wouldn't introduce the Beddington, Plough Lane stop and I'd introduce both the Feltham and especially the Harlington Corner stop for the reasons you mention on a Kingston/other terminal to Heathrow SL7.
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Post by southlondon413 on Jun 17, 2024 15:13:53 GMT
Completely agree with most of this, but not sure about the SL9 reference. I assume you meant extending the SL5 to Kingston? That would be a huge win for Bromley residents, would allow for same stop interchange in Kingston and maintains the Kingston-Croydon link. Would need decking for sure. The proposed SL7 stop at Harlington Corner would be great as it enables much faster journeys by chopping out Heathrow. You can catch an earlier connecting bus and save 10-20 minutes on a through journey between SL7, SL9 and other routes. I suggested that further up the page and it should be doable - the SL5 is roughly 35 minutes whilst Croydon to Kingston is roughly 1h 10 minutes so would still end up have a less overall running time than the current SL7 but the crux, as you and several of us mention, would be that the SL5 would have to decked with the added benefit of given a welcome capacity boost to the current SL5 section. I wouldn't introduce the Beddington, Plough Lane stop and I'd introduce both the Feltham and especially the Harlington Corner stop for the reasons you mention on a Kingston/other terminal to Heathrow SL7. A Waddon station stop would be preferable if something has to be added on that stretch. I don’t think a Beddington stop at Plough Lane will be unpopular but the Superloop should be about creating better links and a direct bus link from Waddon station may provide a better link.
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Post by bk10mfe on Jun 17, 2024 16:55:12 GMT
A few people mention a split at Kingston on the SL7 rather than Sutton and so maybe a solution would simply be to extend the SL5 from Croydon to Kingston and keep the SL7 from Kingston/a different terminal to Heathrow but only on the basis the SL5 goes double deck as a result. Croydon to Kingston is currently timed at about 1h 10 minutes whilst the current SL5 is roughly 35 minutes. This would leave the new SL5 with a lower overall running time compared to the current SL7. The Beddington, Plough Lane stop wouldn't be introduced whilst on the new SL7, both the Feltham & Harlington Corner stops would be introduced. This is something that I’ve thought of as well. If the SL7 was to be split at Kingston, I think sending it to Putney Bridge (with stand space vacated if the 414 withdrawal goes ahead) would be a very good idea given that the 85 is being reduced in frequency soon, & I know well enough the 85 won’t be able to manage with its reduced frequency.
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Post by southlondon413 on Jun 17, 2024 17:12:04 GMT
A few people mention a split at Kingston on the SL7 rather than Sutton and so maybe a solution would simply be to extend the SL5 from Croydon to Kingston and keep the SL7 from Kingston/a different terminal to Heathrow but only on the basis the SL5 goes double deck as a result. Croydon to Kingston is currently timed at about 1h 10 minutes whilst the current SL5 is roughly 35 minutes. This would leave the new SL5 with a lower overall running time compared to the current SL7. The Beddington, Plough Lane stop wouldn't be introduced whilst on the new SL7, both the Feltham & Harlington Corner stops would be introduced. This is something that I’ve thought of as well. If the SL7 was to be split at Kingston, I think sending it to Putney Bridge (with stand space vacated if the 414 withdrawal goes ahead) would be a very good idea given that the 85 is being reduced in frequency soon, & I know well enough the 85 won’t be able to manage with its reduced frequency. I personally wouldn’t put a new route on Putney High Street, there are so many times when it’s almost impassable. If you were going to route it that way I’d only send it as far as Putney Heath or at a push Wandsworth via East Putney. The better option would be to extend it west from Heathrow Central to Heathrow T5 as the TfL surface links there are woefully inadequate.
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Post by bk10mfe on Jun 17, 2024 19:25:14 GMT
This is something that I’ve thought of as well. If the SL7 was to be split at Kingston, I think sending it to Putney Bridge (with stand space vacated if the 414 withdrawal goes ahead) would be a very good idea given that the 85 is being reduced in frequency soon, & I know well enough the 85 won’t be able to manage with its reduced frequency. I personally wouldn’t put a new route on Putney High Street, there are so many times when it’s almost impassable. If you were going to route it that way I’d only send it as far as Putney Heath or at a push Wandsworth via East Putney. The better option would be to extend it west from Heathrow Central to Heathrow T5 as the TfL surface links there are woefully inadequate. Putney Heath will have no stand space especially if the 14’s frequency increase goes ahead. Logically speaking though it would make sense for the SL7’s allocation to move to AF as it wouldn’t be running near Croydon anymore, so it could stand in the bus garage, enabling it to skip out on most of Putney High St. The Heathrow Central-T5 link could easily be covered by having the 423 perform a double run to serve Heathrow Central.
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