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Post by galwhv69 on Feb 7, 2018 17:52:26 GMT
Please, please, please watch the BBC London lunchtime news today; Tom Edwards was reporting on a leaked TfL staff email where it states signicant [financial] losses expected in the next year. It is music to my ears! EDIT: one of the quotes extracted from the email: "like a hosuehold budget where there isn't enough to pay the mortgage." You don't believe the piece get anymore beautiful than that, but it does.... It must this article which I saw on a Facebook group www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42975661Will TFL be the next Carillion?
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Post by twobellstogo on Feb 7, 2018 17:58:59 GMT
Will TFL be the next Carillion? Bit melodramatic! TfL has its problems but it’s in no way the basket case Carillion was.
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Post by sid on Feb 7, 2018 18:19:19 GMT
Will TFL be the next Carillion? Totally different but I can't help wondering whether a TfL operator will end up doing a Carillion with rock bottom unsuitable bids for contracts? We shall see.
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Post by DE20106 on Feb 7, 2018 18:43:09 GMT
Can you even begin to imagine what would happen if TfL went bust though? (obviously very VERY extreme circumstances) London would go into absolute meltdown it would just be totally every man for himself! I’m sure (and like to think) it’s only a blip though. The main reason bus patronage has dipped is because of worsening traffic, and that’s because of the ridiculous amount of roadworks going on at the moment, many of which will hopefully be finishing up this year. I know there’s a lot of reports and articles about the bus network ‘dying’, it will never ‘die’ as such. Take areas like North Peckham which was once absolutely swamping the poor 343 as seen on that documentary on the TV, people who rely on that service (and now thankfully the 136 which has come to the rescue as well) day in day out have no other way of getting round. That service is so heavily relied upon to take them to other connecting modes of transport and just to generally get around, there will always be a demand for bus services like those. EDIT: If Boris hadn’t wasted so much of TfL’s money on those wretched Boris Buses, they’d have so much more money to spend on better more useful things.
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 7, 2018 18:50:45 GMT
Can you even begin to imagine what would happen if TfL went bust though? (obviously very VERY extreme circumstances) London would go into absolute meltdown it would just be totally every man for himself! I’m sure (and like to think) it’s only a blip though. The main reason bus patronage has dipped is because of worsening traffic, and that’s because of the ridiculous amount of roadworks going on at the moment, many of which will hopefully be finishing up this year. I know there’s a lot of reports and articles about the bus network ‘dying’, it will never ‘die’ as such. Take areas like North Peckham which was once absolutely swamping the poor 343 as seen on that documentary on the TV, people who rely on that service (and now thankfully the 136 which has come to the rescue as well) day in day out have no other way of getting round. That service is so heavily relied upon to take them to other connecting modes of transport and just to generally get around, there will always be a demand for bus services like those. EDIT: If Boris hadn’t wasted so much of TfL’s money on those wretched Boris Buses, they’d have so much more money to spend on better more useful things. Even though I think that the LTs are awful vehicles I don't think that's the problem in TfL's budget. The Fares freeze and hopper both play a bigger part I think, we should have had one or the other, but not both.
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Post by snowman on Feb 7, 2018 19:27:08 GMT
Can you even begin to imagine what would happen if TfL went bust though? (obviously very VERY extreme circumstances) London would go into absolute meltdown it would just be totally every man for himself! I’m sure (and like to think) it’s only a blip though. The main reason bus patronage has dipped is because of worsening traffic, and that’s because of the ridiculous amount of roadworks going on at the moment, many of which will hopefully be finishing up this year. I know there’s a lot of reports and articles about the bus network ‘dying’, it will never ‘die’ as such. Take areas like North Peckham which was once absolutely swamping the poor 343 as seen on that documentary on the TV, people who rely on that service (and now thankfully the 136 which has come to the rescue as well) day in day out have no other way of getting round. That service is so heavily relied upon to take them to other connecting modes of transport and just to generally get around, there will always be a demand for bus services like those. EDIT: If Boris hadn’t wasted so much of TfL’s money on those wretched Boris Buses, they’d have so much more money to spend on better more useful things. Peckham is not a good example regarding bus cuts. Few years ago no Overground existed, go back to 1980s and no DLR south of the River and BR running a sparse service with 1950s EPB units running on reused 1920s bogies. So the area was mainly bus, or walk. Obviously there are rather more (and considerably more modern) alternatives to some bus journeys nowadays. The concept of TfL running out of cash is quite interesting, if alarming. Staff not paid, Operators not getting paid so unable to pay their staff. Presumably leasing Cos and banks would seize any trains or buses they own. Maybe if buildings are not owned outright then people would be locked out by owner. Maintenance contractors would remove their equipment to avoid it getting stranded. Even if it didn’t get this far, following how companies got burnt by Carillion going down any sensible organisation would cancel any credit facility if they thought it was about to close. So any restart might need paying for upfront as who would risk not getting paid by some prepack administration startup
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Post by snoggle on Feb 7, 2018 20:45:52 GMT
Can you even begin to imagine what would happen if TfL went bust though? (obviously very VERY extreme circumstances) London would go into absolute meltdown it would just be totally every man for himself! I’m sure (and like to think) it’s only a blip though. The main reason bus patronage has dipped is because of worsening traffic, and that’s because of the ridiculous amount of roadworks going on at the moment, many of which will hopefully be finishing up this year. I know there’s a lot of reports and articles about the bus network ‘dying’, it will never ‘die’ as such. Take areas like North Peckham which was once absolutely swamping the poor 343 as seen on that documentary on the TV, people who rely on that service (and now thankfully the 136 which has come to the rescue as well) day in day out have no other way of getting round. That service is so heavily relied upon to take them to other connecting modes of transport and just to generally get around, there will always be a demand for bus services like those. EDIT: If Boris hadn’t wasted so much of TfL’s money on those wretched Boris Buses, they’d have so much more money to spend on better more useful things. A few comments. 1. It is pretty much impossible for TfL to go bust. 2. It is politically implausible for TfL to go bust. 3. It is economically and poltically impossible for there to be no public transport in London. 4. It is worth bearing in mind that bus patronage even 20 years ago was vastly lower than it is now. Yes we have declining patronage now and it may well get worse but it would take a catastrophe to get us back to the levels of usage seen in 1996 (half that in 2016). 5. I am no fan of the NB4L but £350m is / was loose change in the greater scheme of things in the TfL budget. If those buses had not been bought then tender prices on the relevant routes would be rather higher to reflect the need for operators to buy the buses. Obviously the media want a good headline and the leaked E Mail has provided one but we do need to keep things in proportion. I really, really dislike what is going on and it is noteworthy that TfL staff are reported as being "angry" with what is going on. Still we are a long, long way from the worst financial crises of the past - I should know I've worked through several of them and had to axe projects, slash budgets and get projects stopped immediately because LT nearly ran out of cash due to incompetence of a former Finance Director.
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Post by DE20106 on Feb 7, 2018 21:28:53 GMT
EDIT: If Boris hadn’t wasted so much of TfL’s money on those wretched Boris Buses, they’d have so much more money to spend on better more useful things. I do apologise I think I should have made it a bit clearer that this was more of a flippent comment more than a serious one I was just more emphasising my point that these Boris buses should never have been bought about in the first place 😂 but when you do actually think about it the £350 million odd that TfL threw down the drain on those heaps of junk, they could have bought around 43 S Stock trains for that money (about £8 million per train) so while I definitely agree it doesn’t make *that much* of a dent to TfL’s budget in which we’re obviously talking billions, it’s still not an insignificant amount of money. EDIT: obviously had those Boris buses not been built, TfL would have had to shell out money to operators through their tendering process to get new conventional hybrid buses for routes in place of Boris buses, but obviously as conventional hybrids are only a fraction of the cost of a Boris bus they’d still make quite a big saving.
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Post by sid on Feb 7, 2018 21:36:41 GMT
EDIT: If Boris hadn’t wasted so much of TfL’s money on those wretched Boris Buses, they’d have so much more money to spend on better more useful things. I do apologise I think I should have made it a bit clearer that this was more of a flippent comment more than a serious one I was just more emphasising my point that these Boris buses should never have been bought about in the first place 😂 but when you do actually think about it the £350 million odd that TfL threw down the drain on those heaps of junk, they could have bought around 43 S Stock trains for that money (about £8 million per train) so while I definitely agree it doesn’t make *that much* of a dent to TfL’s budget in which we’re obviously talking billions, it’s still not an insignificant amount of money. EDIT: obviously had those Boris buses not been built, TfL would have had to shell out money to operators through their tendering process to get new conventional hybrid buses for routes in place of Boris buses, but obviously as conventional hybrids are only a fraction of the cost of a Boris bus they’d still make quite a big saving. They're hardly heaps of junk are they? Anyway they're hardly relevant to the current situation.
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Post by DE20106 on Feb 7, 2018 21:39:19 GMT
I do apologise I think I should have made it a bit clearer that this was more of a flippent comment more than a serious one I was just more emphasising my point that these Boris buses should never have been bought about in the first place 😂 but when you do actually think about it the £350 million odd that TfL threw down the drain on those heaps of junk, they could have bought around 43 S Stock trains for that money (about £8 million per train) so while I definitely agree it doesn’t make *that much* of a dent to TfL’s budget in which we’re obviously talking billions, it’s still not an insignificant amount of money. EDIT: obviously had those Boris buses not been built, TfL would have had to shell out money to operators through their tendering process to get new conventional hybrid buses for routes in place of Boris buses, but obviously as conventional hybrids are only a fraction of the cost of a Boris bus they’d still make quite a big saving. They're hardly heaps of junk are they? Anyway they're hardly relevant to the current situation. I guess it’s subjective as to whether one takes a liking to them or not. They are like marmite in fairness, I know quite a few people who love them. But I certainly don’t, for the money they cost my word they have so many flaws, IMO anyway.
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Post by busaholic on Feb 7, 2018 21:45:00 GMT
Can you even begin to imagine what would happen if TfL went bust though? (obviously very VERY extreme circumstances) London would go into absolute meltdown it would just be totally every man for himself! I’m sure (and like to think) it’s only a blip though. The main reason bus patronage has dipped is because of worsening traffic, and that’s because of the ridiculous amount of roadworks going on at the moment, many of which will hopefully be finishing up this year. I know there’s a lot of reports and articles about the bus network ‘dying’, it will never ‘die’ as such. Take areas like North Peckham which was once absolutely swamping the poor 343 as seen on that documentary on the TV, people who rely on that service (and now thankfully the 136 which has come to the rescue as well) day in day out have no other way of getting round. That service is so heavily relied upon to take them to other connecting modes of transport and just to generally get around, there will always be a demand for bus services like those. EDIT: If Boris hadn’t wasted so much of TfL’s money on those wretched Boris Buses, they’d have so much more money to spend on better more useful things. Peckham is not a good example regarding bus cuts. Few years ago no Overground existed, go back to 1980s and no DLR south of the River and BR running a sparse service with 1950s EPB units running on reused 1920s bogies. So the area was mainly bus, or walk. Obviously there are rather more (and considerably more modern) alternatives to some bus journeys nowadays. The concept of TfL running out of cash is quite interesting, if alarming. Staff not paid, Operators not getting paid so unable to pay their staff. Presumably leasing Cos and banks would seize any trains or buses they own. Maybe if buildings are not owned outright then people would be locked out by owner. Maintenance contractors would remove their equipment to avoid it getting stranded. Even if it didn’t get this far, following how companies got burnt by Carillion going down any sensible organisation would cancel any credit facility if they thought it was about to close. So any restart might need paying for upfront as who would risk not getting paid by some prepack administration startup On the contrary, I think Peckham (and specifically North Peckham) is an excellent example of the effect of bus cuts. An Overground every fifteen minutes may be alright if you're off to Canary Wharf (with a change) or parts of the City, but does everyone want to pile on to Clapham Junction and fight their way on to another train there? Try telling people in this area that the Elizabeth Line is going to improve their lives!
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Post by sid on Feb 7, 2018 21:48:52 GMT
They're hardly heaps of junk are they? Anyway they're hardly relevant to the current situation. I guess it’s subjective as to whether one takes a liking to them or not. They are like marmite in fairness, I know quite a few people who love them. But I certainly don’t, for the money they cost my word they have so many flaws, IMO anyway. Passengers on the 267 seem to love them, quite a wow factor when I rode on the route, obviously a vast improvement on the SLE's they've replaced. Personally I think they're on a par with other modern rolling stock although I prefer the E400 City.
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Post by sid on Feb 7, 2018 21:52:13 GMT
Peckham is not a good example regarding bus cuts. Few years ago no Overground existed, go back to 1980s and no DLR south of the River and BR running a sparse service with 1950s EPB units running on reused 1920s bogies. So the area was mainly bus, or walk. Obviously there are rather more (and considerably more modern) alternatives to some bus journeys nowadays. The concept of TfL running out of cash is quite interesting, if alarming. Staff not paid, Operators not getting paid so unable to pay their staff. Presumably leasing Cos and banks would seize any trains or buses they own. Maybe if buildings are not owned outright then people would be locked out by owner. Maintenance contractors would remove their equipment to avoid it getting stranded. Even if it didn’t get this far, following how companies got burnt by Carillion going down any sensible organisation would cancel any credit facility if they thought it was about to close. So any restart might need paying for upfront as who would risk not getting paid by some prepack administration startup On the contrary, I think Peckham (and specifically North Peckham) is an excellent example of the effect of bus cuts. An Overground every fifteen minutes may be alright if you're off to Canary Wharf (with a change) or parts of the City, but does everyone want to pile on to Clapham Junction and fight their way on to another train there? Try telling people in this area that the Elizabeth Line is going to improve their lives! The Clapham Junction to Surrey Quays section seems remarkably well used and presumably many are ex bus users? Routes like the 345 have probably lost quite a bit of trade because of it?
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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2018 0:05:23 GMT
On the contrary, I think Peckham (and specifically North Peckham) is an excellent example of the effect of bus cuts. An Overground every fifteen minutes may be alright if you're off to Canary Wharf (with a change) or parts of the City, but does everyone want to pile on to Clapham Junction and fight their way on to another train there? Try telling people in this area that the Elizabeth Line is going to improve their lives! The Clapham Junction to Surrey Quays section seems remarkably well used and presumably many are ex bus users? Routes like the 345 have probably lost quite a bit of trade because of it? Not particularly - 345’s are still as busy as ever during the peaks as there is a lot of local links used despite the twisty nature of the route not to mention the fact the Overground doesn’t serve Brixton or Loughborough Junction either.
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Post by enviroPB on Feb 8, 2018 11:18:36 GMT
The Clapham Junction to Surrey Quays section seems remarkably well used and presumably many are ex bus users? Routes like the 345 have probably lost quite a bit of trade because of it? Not particularly - 345’s are still as busy as ever during the peaks as there is a lot of local links used despite the twisty nature of the route not to mention the fact the Overground doesn’t serve Brixton or Loughborough Junction either. You can still get frequent trains to Denmark Hill, and then change there for Overground to Peckham with ease. I have noticed in recent times that the 345 is coping rather well with its cut in frequency during the peaks. I think the Overground is a heavy factor in potential patronage drop from Peckham to Clapham Junction. With the Overground also comes the awkening to passengers that Southern/Southeastern/Thameslink services also run in conjunction with the Overground services; compare that to a packed 345 stuck in traffic, et voila: train wins over bus, every time.
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