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Post by snoggle on Feb 8, 2018 11:24:51 GMT
The Clapham Junction to Surrey Quays section seems remarkably well used and presumably many are ex bus users? Routes like the 345 have probably lost quite a bit of trade because of it? Not particularly - 345’s are still as busy as ever during the peaks as there is a lot of local links used despite the twisty nature of the route not to mention the fact the Overground doesn’t serve Brixton or Loughborough Junction either. It's lost 1.6m pass jnys over the last three years. The Brixton section probably isn't too badly affected because of the lack an Overground stop as you say. I can see that other trips previously undertaken by the 345 would have transferred to rail.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2018 12:13:32 GMT
Not particularly - 345’s are still as busy as ever during the peaks as there is a lot of local links used despite the twisty nature of the route not to mention the fact the Overground doesn’t serve Brixton or Loughborough Junction either. You can still get frequent trains to Denmark Hill, and then change there for Overground to Peckham with ease. I have noticed in recent times that the 345 is coping rather well with its cut in frequency during the peaks. I think the Overground is a heavy factor in potential patronage drop from Peckham to Clapham Junction. With the Overground also comes the awkening to passengers that Southern/Southeastern/Thameslink services also run in conjunction with the Overground services; compare that to a packed 345 stuck in traffic, et voila: train wins over bus, every time. I never said anything about no one transferring to the Overground or disagreed with any notion that the Overground has taken any passengers away from the 345. Even with all that going on, the 345 is still very busy during the peaks because of the many local links it provides that the train can't as well as Brixton & Loughborough Junction having no Overground Station.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2018 12:16:20 GMT
Not particularly - 345’s are still as busy as ever during the peaks as there is a lot of local links used despite the twisty nature of the route not to mention the fact the Overground doesn’t serve Brixton or Loughborough Junction either. It's lost 1.6m pass jnys over the last three years. The Brixton section probably isn't too badly affected because of the lack an Overground stop as you say. I can see that other trips previously undertaken by the 345 would have transferred to rail. Indeed not doubting that at all but even then, it's still very busy during the peaks. Some have transferred to rail but I suspect these are people taking longer journeys whilst those not going far are sticking with the bus.
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Post by enviroPB on Feb 8, 2018 13:02:12 GMT
You can still get frequent trains to Denmark Hill, and then change there for Overground to Peckham with ease. I have noticed in recent times that the 345 is coping rather well with its cut in frequency during the peaks. I think the Overground is a heavy factor in potential patronage drop from Peckham to Clapham Junction. With the Overground also comes the awkening to passengers that Southern/Southeastern/Thameslink services also run in conjunction with the Overground services; compare that to a packed 345 stuck in traffic, et voila: train wins over bus, every time. I never said anything about no one transferring to the Overground or disagreed with any notion that the Overground has taken any passengers away from the 345. Even with all that going on, the 345 is still very busy during the peaks because of the many local links it provides that the train can't as well as Brixton & Loughborough Junction having no Overground Station. We're singing from the same hymn sheet, but at different pitches here. I'm talking about how the 345 is managing to cope well despite its small frequency decrease. I was only sharing my thoughts as I had to go to Loughborough Junction for a weekly event since the turn of the year. It was interesting seeing that corridor and observing the 345 especially as there was often no capacity eastbound till Camberwell Green in the old days. I was just mervelling now that decreases on the 45 and 345, and no change in frequency to the 35 meant the Brixton- Camberwell corridor was coping miraculously well. I was trying to not say TfL have got their efficiency savings right on this one vjaska, but seeing as beat it out of me...
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Post by snowman on Feb 8, 2018 13:26:55 GMT
Another round of Green bus funding has been awarded, appears TfL have £1.5m this year and £1.5m next year to upgrade 500 buses (presumably a contribution as £6000 per bus doesn't buy a euroVI upgrade) LinkLooks like a London bus and a Nottingham bus have been taken to QE2 centre for display during announcement
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Post by snoggle on Feb 8, 2018 17:38:51 GMT
Another round of Green bus funding has been awarded, appears TfL have £1.5m this year and £1.5m next year to upgrade 500 buses (presumably a contribution as £6000 per bus doesn't buy a euroVI upgrade) LinkLooks like a London bus and a Nottingham bus have been taken to QE2 centre for display during announcement the London Bus is MD1 - the electric Metrodecker being trialled for 3 months on route 36.
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Post by busaholic on Feb 8, 2018 19:16:31 GMT
It's lost 1.6m pass jnys over the last three years. The Brixton section probably isn't too badly affected because of the lack an Overground stop as you say. I can see that other trips previously undertaken by the 345 would have transferred to rail. Indeed not doubting that at all but even then, it's still very busy during the peaks. Some have transferred to rail but I suspect these are people taking longer journeys whilst those not going far are sticking with the bus. How far will £1.50 take you on LO or NR in the area? A 5 car train running every 15 minutes (and replacing in part a 2 car train every 30 minutes) is hardly the stuff of wildest dreams, especially when it may not even serve the places a lot of local people are trying to get to, at least without a congested change. If people are leaving the 345, the 35 and the 45 I suggest it's often because of cuts in service and the ever-increasing congestion, perhaps in many cases finding it quicker to walk for shortish journeys. Divide and rule was ever the Tory way, but Labour seem to now embrace it too.
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Post by sid on Feb 8, 2018 20:22:00 GMT
Indeed not doubting that at all but even then, it's still very busy during the peaks. Some have transferred to rail but I suspect these are people taking longer journeys whilst those not going far are sticking with the bus. How far will £1.50 take you on LO or NR in the area? A 5 car train running every 15 minutes (and replacing in part a 2 car train every 30 minutes) is hardly the stuff of wildest dreams, especially when it may not even serve the places a lot of local people are trying to get to, at least without a congested change. If people are leaving the 345, the 35 and the 45 I suggest it's often because of cuts in service and the ever-increasing congestion, perhaps in many cases finding it quicker to walk for shortish journeys. Divide and rule was ever the Tory way, but Labour seem to now embrace it too. I don't get this divide and rule, surely it's a natural progression that a lot of people switch from bus travel to a much quicker train service?
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Post by kmkcheng on Feb 8, 2018 20:45:08 GMT
Indeed not doubting that at all but even then, it's still very busy during the peaks. Some have transferred to rail but I suspect these are people taking longer journeys whilst those not going far are sticking with the bus. How far will £1.50 take you on LO or NR in the area? A 5 car train running every 15 minutes (and replacing in part a 2 car train every 30 minutes) is hardly the stuff of wildest dreams, especially when it may not even serve the places a lot of local people are trying to get to, at least without a congested change. If people are leaving the 345, the 35 and the 45 I suggest it's often because of cuts in service and the ever-increasing congestion, perhaps in many cases finding it quicker to walk for shortish journeys. Divide and rule was ever the Tory way, but Labour seem to now embrace it too. £1.50 can get you quite far in London if you travel off peak and avoid zone 1 using LU, LO and DLR (but not NR). It is possible to travel from Heathrow to Upminster for £1.50 if you don’t travel through zone 1 but would involve 5 changes of train and remembering to use the pink oyster readers
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Post by snoggle on Feb 8, 2018 21:37:47 GMT
Indeed not doubting that at all but even then, it's still very busy during the peaks. Some have transferred to rail but I suspect these are people taking longer journeys whilst those not going far are sticking with the bus. How far will £1.50 take you on LO or NR in the area? A 5 car train running every 15 minutes (and replacing in part a 2 car train every 30 minutes) is hardly the stuff of wildest dreams, especially when it may not even serve the places a lot of local people are trying to get to, at least without a congested change. If people are leaving the 345, the 35 and the 45 I suggest it's often because of cuts in service and the ever-increasing congestion, perhaps in many cases finding it quicker to walk for shortish journeys. Divide and rule was ever the Tory way, but Labour seem to now embrace it too. Not sure what point you are making. NR fares are higher than TfL for rail and tube and you can get a very long way indeed, off peak, for £1.50 if you know how to use the TfL Single Fare Finder and where pink validators are. You can certainly get from Clapham Junction to Canary Wharf for £1.50 on the Overground / Tube off peak. You can't ignore the fact that the Overground's South London Line service is immensely popular - it loads well off peak and leaves full and standing from Clapham Junction in the peaks. It offers a convenient service and the booming usage of Denmark Hill shows that people have tweaked their travel habits. I dare say similar things can be said at Peckham Rye and also to a lesser extent Clapham High St and Wandsworth Road. If you look at the published stats you would see that much of what TfL are doing now is cuts *after* patronage has fallen. These reductions have typically taken place over 2-4 years so are not exactly a blip. It may be uncomfortable reading but in some parts of London people most certainly have swapped from bus to tube / Overground. I see this first hand on the Victoria Line where the very high frequency service and faster trip times have boosted demand hugely as has the creation of convenient links to the Overground at Highbury and Blackhorse Rd where much more reliable and frequent services are on offer. (Yes, I know the physical interchanges have existed at those stns for many decades). TfL, and LT before it, have always adjusted bus services to better link to new rail links but also to reflect the fact that modal transfer does happen. I don't see this as politically driven "divide and rule" as you suggest. All major rail investment assumes some modal transfer and models the effects - this has been done for the Met Line Extension, was certainly done for the Jubilee Line extension and I'd expect it figured in Overground and Crossrail business cases too. It's simply a fact of life that people vote with their feet.
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Post by vjaska on Feb 8, 2018 23:10:13 GMT
How far will £1.50 take you on LO or NR in the area? A 5 car train running every 15 minutes (and replacing in part a 2 car train every 30 minutes) is hardly the stuff of wildest dreams, especially when it may not even serve the places a lot of local people are trying to get to, at least without a congested change. If people are leaving the 345, the 35 and the 45 I suggest it's often because of cuts in service and the ever-increasing congestion, perhaps in many cases finding it quicker to walk for shortish journeys. Divide and rule was ever the Tory way, but Labour seem to now embrace it too. I don't get this divide and rule, surely it's a natural progression that a lot of people switch from bus travel to a much quicker train service? Not necessarily - some people will do that of course but there would be a sizeable group of people who find train travel awkward as well as the cost involved (I’m talking in general rather than a specific example). The 25 is a good example of this where many people persist with the route for all sorts of reasons despite the Central Line & TfL Rail running alongside large chunks of the route.
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Post by snowman on Feb 11, 2018 13:55:53 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Feb 11, 2018 14:58:55 GMT
Doesn't look terribly like serious analysis to me. All it's saying is what anyone can work out if they look at the numbers. The last two business plans have been predicated on "brave" (being kind) assumptions about patronage, fares revenue and commercial revenue. They simply don't work if you have any weakening of economic activity or material changes to travel patterns. It looks pretty clear that we are now seeing both of these things. The other rather half ar*ed remark comes from Caroline Pidgeon. She makes a comment about TfL needing to control its expenditure and projects being cut as a result. She seems to miss the point that if people are not using public transport for whatever reason and if travel patterns have changed then projects simply won't be justified in future as there will be no business case. The lack of money is simply a consequence not a driving factor. It's about time the politicians faced up to the fact that "old thinking" about how projects are justified may have gone completely out of the window and therefore their aspirations to keep building things may have to be changed. And that also goes for the rest of us who like playing with crayons. We may well be past the days of building tube lines and Crossrails because they're unaffordable and there won't be the demand in future.
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Post by snowman on Feb 12, 2018 12:40:13 GMT
New works started today on new homes and a new bus terminus at Beacontree Heath Link
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Feb 12, 2018 22:18:27 GMT
It's been a few months now since I last reported this but roadworks doesn't seem to be the reason.
When leaving stand many 55s now run via Henrietta Place and Vere Street instead of via Great Portland Street and Cavendish Place, however not all 55s are doing this and none of the 25s or 73s are doing this. I can't think of any benefit to them taking this alternate route either so I'm assuming there's bound to be some reason.
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