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Post by vjaska on Jun 10, 2013 23:58:57 GMT
The problem with using either route over that extension is reliability - any further north of Streatham Station and I can see both routes really suffer leaving passengers in Sanderstead, Warlingham & Riddlesdown with a poor service. I think the 64 would be better and I'd only extend it to Streatham Village/Hub as the 109 has plenty of help between there & Brixton. If the 64 developed problems at its southern end, it still has the Tramlink & the T33 to fall back on plus its more frequent than the 403 or 412. As for the 255, my own preference would be to extend it to Balham but via a slightly different route to the proposed route via the 57 to Clapham Park, Poynders Road, Clarence Avenue, Weir Road, Cavendish Road, Old Devonshire Road, Balham High Road to terminate on Balham Station Road, departing via Bedford Lane back to Balham High Road. That allows the 57 to be extended to Brixton as the 57 hardly carries anyone between Clapham Park & Brixton garage. To facilate deckers for the 201, I'd suggest simply re-routing the 201 via Norwood Road mainly because the Tulse Hill to Herne Hill section is lightly used on the route though if replacement is needed - maybe a Herne Hill to Fulham route via the current 201 between Herne Hill & Tulse Hill, the whole length of Christchurch Road, Streatham Place, Atkins Road, Poynders Road, Cavendish Road, The Avenue, Clapham Common North & West Sides, Elspeth Road, Lavender Hill, St. John's Hill, East Hill (southbound), Huguenot Place (northbound), Fairfield Street (southbound), Wandsworth High Street & Ram Street (northbound), Old York Road, Swandon Way, Wandsworth Bridge, Wandsworth Bridge Road, Kings Road, Harwood Road terminating at Fulham Broadway. This would provide many new links such as: Fulham Broadway to Clapham South, Clapham Park, Tulse Hill & Herne Hill Wandsworth to Clapham South, Clapham Park & Tulse Hill Clapham Junction to Clapham Park & Tulse Hill Clapham South to Fulham Broadway, Wandsworth, Tulse Hill & Herne Hill Clapham Park to Fulham Broadway, Wandsworth, Clapham Junction, Tulse Hill & Herne Hill Tulse Hill to Fulham Broadway, Wandsworth, Clapham Junction, Clapham South & Clapham Park Herne Hill to Fulham Broadway, Clapham South & Clapham Park Regarding rerouting the 201 via Norwood road, additionally reroute the 322 via Thurlow Park Road and Croxted Road, retaining that local 'round the corner' link. The only reason I went for this new route to replace the 201 between Herne Hill & Tulse Hill is one of the documents 'snoggle' provided from the recent TfL meeting spoke about a need for a route serving Trinity Road & Fulham. My idea above would be called option 1. Below are two more options. Option 2: Herne Hill to Clapham South remains the same but from there to Wandsworth, runs via Nightingale Lane, Bellevue Road & Trinity Road. Option 3: Herne Hill to Clapham South remains the same but from there to Wandsworth, runs via Balham Hill, Balham High Road & Trinity Road. This new route would use 10.8m single deckers or 12m Regarding the 201, you could even just cut it back to Tulse Hill thus allowing for deckers to be used. |
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Post by moz on Jun 11, 2013 12:26:44 GMT
Regarding rerouting the 201 via Norwood road, additionally reroute the 322 via Thurlow Park Road and Croxted Road, retaining that local 'round the corner' link. The only reason I went for this new route to replace the 201 between Herne Hill & Tulse Hill is one of the documents 'snoggle' provided from the recent TfL meeting spoke about a need for a route serving Trinity Road & Fulham. My idea above would be called option 1. Below are two more options. Option 2: Herne Hill to Clapham South remains the same but from there to Wandsworth, runs via Nightingale Lane, Bellevue Road & Trinity Road. Option 3: Herne Hill to Clapham South remains the same but from there to Wandsworth, runs via Balham Hill, Balham High Road & Trinity Road. This new route would use 10.8m single deckers or 12m Regarding the 201, you could even just cut it back to Tulse Hill thus allowing for deckers to be used. If Trinity Road to Fulham is needed then I suspect you'd be better off extending the 391 out of Sand's End over Wandsworth Bridge and straight down Trinity to Tooting Bec. Moz |
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Post by COBO on Jun 13, 2013 0:00:02 GMT
Extend the U1 from Ruislip to Northolt Station via West End Road, Ruislip Gardens Station, South Ruislip, Ruislip Road, Yeading and Church Road. To bring back a old link between Ruislip and Northolt and to provide Northolt with new links to Uxbridge and West Drayton.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 17:23:49 GMT
The 57 could actually do with being cut back to Streatham Hill Station, allowing it to get on with its core southern section rather than messing about in inner south London. The 255 could then take over and follow the proposed alternative (somewhere up there^ by vjaska) routing to Balham. Doubt anything will get extended to Streatham Hub as it is full to bursting now, though it was lovely without the 60 for those few months. If an increase down Brixton Hill is needed (in peaks yes, outside, no) then you could do this by cutting the 415 and extending the 432 in its place, this would save 2 or 3 buses that could then be added to an increased 109. Note: I resisted the temptation to run the 109 to Elephant instead of the 415, but I suspect the buses saved from cutting the 415 would just about cover it. Moz I've never been particularly fond of Streatham Hill Station as a terminus due to a lack of interchange stop at Streatham Hill Station itself. Its a shame that any terminating bus can't serve the stop at the former Megabowl and then use Ardwell Road, Blairderry Road & Sternhold Avenue to return to Streatham High Road. Stand space here would be an issue as well as the narrow roads. If extra capacity is needed between Streatham and Croydon divert the 319 south to Croydon? Alternativly divert the 319 to Crystal Palace and divert the 249 to Croydon. Either way it would give a useful link to Tooting Bec. |
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Post by Connor on Jun 13, 2013 18:22:31 GMT
I've never been particularly fond of Streatham Hill Station as a terminus due to a lack of interchange stop at Streatham Hill Station itself. Its a shame that any terminating bus can't serve the stop at the former Megabowl and then use Ardwell Road, Blairderry Road & Sternhold Avenue to return to Streatham High Road. Stand space here would be an issue as well as the narrow roads. If extra capacity is needed between Streatham and Croydon divert the 319 south to Croydon? Alternativly divert the 319 to Crystal Palace and divert the 249 to Croydon. Either way it would give a useful link to Tooting Bec. I always thought the 319 would be the ideal route to extend down to Croydon. The bit between St Leonards Church to Brixton Bus Garage is always very lightly used so it would make sense. If it did get extended to Croydon, I'd like the terminus to be Hogarth Crescent, simply because of the vacant stand there. Traffic would definitely be an issue on the extended route though. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 13, 2013 18:47:57 GMT
If extra capacity is needed between Streatham and Croydon divert the 319 south to Croydon? Alternativly divert the 319 to Crystal Palace and divert the 249 to Croydon. Either way it would give a useful link to Tooting Bec. I always thought the 319 would be the ideal route to extend down to Croydon. The bit between St Leonards Church to Brixton Bus Garage is always very lightly used so it would make sense. If it did get extended to Croydon, I'd like the terminus to be Hogarth Crescent, simply because of the vacant stand there. Traffic would definitely be an issue on the extended route though. The bit between St. Leonard's Church & BN is not always lightly used. Diverting the 319 to Croydon breaks important links and would, as you mention, have traffic issues. Diverting the 249 to Croydon does the exact same thing. |
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Post by Connor on Jun 13, 2013 18:58:01 GMT
I always thought the 319 would be the ideal route to extend down to Croydon. The bit between St Leonards Church to Brixton Bus Garage is always very lightly used so it would make sense. If it did get extended to Croydon, I'd like the terminus to be Hogarth Crescent, simply because of the vacant stand there. Traffic would definitely be an issue on the extended route though. The bit between St. Leonard's Church & BN is not always lightly used. Diverting the 319 to Croydon breaks important links and would, as you mention, have traffic issues. Diverting the 249 to Croydon does the exact same thing. What important links? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 21:02:23 GMT
I always thought the 319 would be the ideal route to extend down to Croydon. The bit between St Leonards Church to Brixton Bus Garage is always very lightly used so it would make sense. If it did get extended to Croydon, I'd like the terminus to be Hogarth Crescent, simply because of the vacant stand there. Traffic would definitely be an issue on the extended route though. The bit between St. Leonard's Church & BN is not always lightly used. Diverting the 319 to Croydon breaks important links and would, as you mention, have traffic issues. Diverting the 249 to Croydon does the exact same thing. And it would require additional dead running somewhere that is not an issue with one of the terminals being its depot. And it would make a route already over 7 miles that navigates a number of traffic blackspots 3 miles longer without the dead running. It would be near impossible to manage it reliably. Even if there was to be a daytime route from Croydon to central London there are a lot shorter and better ways of doing it than extending the 319. The only change, if any, to be made to the 319 should be an extension to Victoria just to complete a logical shot link and allow much greater value and onward connections, but even that would risk reliability. And of course adding a night element to the N19. Whenever I catch the 319 it is from further up Streatham High Road, so for me rerouting it would definitely be breaking my link to Clapham Junction and Tooting Bec station. While Brixton station is obviously popular with people in Streatham because it only requires zone 1-2 travelcard, Tooting Bec is the nearest tube station and very popular with commuters at peak times. If you have a zone 1-3 travelcard it is a better option than Brixton, and currently the 249 connects it with the High Road south of St Leonard's and the 319 with the High Road to the north. That is a very useful arrangement that would need replacing if anyone wants to start redirecting buses. |
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Post by M1104 on Jun 13, 2013 21:07:56 GMT
The bit between St. Leonard's Church & BN is not always lightly used. Diverting the 319 to Croydon breaks important links and would, as you mention, have traffic issues. Diverting the 249 to Croydon does the exact same thing. What important links? Streatham High Road with Tooting Bec, Wandsworth Common, Clapham Junction, Battersea and Chelsea.  Also makes for better interchanges with routes like the 133 and P13 as they more or less serve the same stops along the high street. Those advantages would be lost if the route was cut back to St Leonards. There is also the disadvantage that BN would have dead mileage introduced from the Streatham end. The link would also be essential should the 319 ever become a 24 hour service, or if the N19 is extended to BN. It's only a pity that the 319's just out of reach of connections with the 45. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2013 0:06:10 GMT
The bit between St. Leonard's Church & BN is not always lightly used. Diverting the 319 to Croydon breaks important links and would, as you mention, have traffic issues. Diverting the 249 to Croydon does the exact same thing. What important links? What 'PVL371' & 'someone' said. |
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Post by Connor on Jun 14, 2013 0:15:37 GMT
What 'PVL371' & 'someone' said. I did read their post some hours ago, thanks.  |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2013 1:33:12 GMT
What 'PVL371' & 'someone' said. I did read their post some hours ago, thanks. Well, we all can't be mind readers......... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 8:30:28 GMT
The bit between St. Leonard's Church & BN is not always lightly used. Diverting the 319 to Croydon breaks important links and would, as you mention, have traffic issues. Diverting the 249 to Croydon does the exact same thing. And it would require additional dead running somewhere that is not an issue with one of the terminals being its depot. And it would make a route already over 7 miles that navigates a number of traffic blackspots 3 miles longer without the dead running. It would be near impossible to manage it reliably. Even if there was to be a daytime route from Croydon to central London there are a lot shorter and better ways of doing it than extending the 319. The only change, if any, to be made to the 319 should be an extension to Victoria just to complete a logical shot link and allow much greater value and onward connections, but even that would risk reliability. And of course adding a night element to the N19. Whenever I catch the 319 it is from further up Streatham High Road, so for me rerouting it would definitely be breaking my link to Clapham Junction and Tooting Bec station. While Brixton station is obviously popular with people in Streatham because it only requires zone 1-2 travelcard, Tooting Bec is the nearest tube station and very popular with commuters at peak times. If you have a zone 1-3 travelcard it is a better option than Brixton, and currently the 249 connects it with the High Road south of St Leonard's and the 319 with the High Road to the north. That is a very useful arrangement that would need replacing if anyone wants to start redirecting buses. The purpose is not about providing a link between Croydon and Central London (well Sloane Square anyway), extending the 109 would be better for that role. The loss of the bit between BN and St Leonards Church is outweighed by the other benefits, I mean the old 49 always ran from AK not BN. The 319 would help the 109 out and be much better than extending a route like the 64 to Streatham. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2013 11:29:09 GMT
And it would require additional dead running somewhere that is not an issue with one of the terminals being its depot. And it would make a route already over 7 miles that navigates a number of traffic blackspots 3 miles longer without the dead running. It would be near impossible to manage it reliably. Even if there was to be a daytime route from Croydon to central London there are a lot shorter and better ways of doing it than extending the 319. The only change, if any, to be made to the 319 should be an extension to Victoria just to complete a logical shot link and allow much greater value and onward connections, but even that would risk reliability. And of course adding a night element to the N19. Whenever I catch the 319 it is from further up Streatham High Road, so for me rerouting it would definitely be breaking my link to Clapham Junction and Tooting Bec station. While Brixton station is obviously popular with people in Streatham because it only requires zone 1-2 travelcard, Tooting Bec is the nearest tube station and very popular with commuters at peak times. If you have a zone 1-3 travelcard it is a better option than Brixton, and currently the 249 connects it with the High Road south of St Leonard's and the 319 with the High Road to the north. That is a very useful arrangement that would need replacing if anyone wants to start redirecting buses. The purpose is not about providing a link between Croydon and Central London (well Sloane Square anyway), extending the 109 would be better for that role. The loss of the bit between BN and St Leonards Church is outweighed by the other benefits, I mean the old 49 always ran from AK not BN. The 319 would help the 109 out and be much better than extending a route like the 64 to Streatham. As mentioned by 'someone', the 319 would become much longer and would have to deal with more traffic hotspots as a result - not only that but then include the dead running as well and it simply would become a very unreliable route. To me, the 64 is still the best option. It has a good frequency (every 10 minutes), its not relatively long in its current form and its southern section has backs ups in the form of the Tramlink & the T33 unlike the 403 & 412 which has no help from other routes from South Croydon onwards. There also seems to be this need that any route that gets extended to help the 109 has to terminate at St. Leonard's Church (the traffic surrounded stand that affected the 133 on numerous occasions) or Streatham Hill Station which is too far up for my liking. The 109's overcrowding is from south of Streatham Hub as through Streatham, there are plenty of routes to aid the 109 so extending to the Hub (if room is needed, move the P13 to the old stand on Streatham High Road opposite where AK was and allow it to turn around using the dual carriageway gap to do so. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 13:23:12 GMT
But if it only goes to Streatham people going further will still wait for the 109.
I don't go along with this 'unreliable' argument and as for dead running well most routes have that already so I don't see why it should be a particular problem in this case.
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Also makes for better interchanges with routes like the 133 and P13 as they more or less serve the same stops along the high street. Those advantages would be lost if the route was cut back to St Leonards. There is also the disadvantage that BN would have dead mileage introduced from the Streatham end.
