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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 14:02:59 GMT
The purpose is not about providing a link between Croydon and Central London (well Sloane Square anyway), extending the 109 would be better for that role. It may not be the purpose, but it would be the effect. The fact that it is not seen as a good idea to have a shorter and direct daytime route from Croydon to central London should show why a circuitous and longer one is such a terrible idea. But if it only goes to Streatham people going further will still wait for the 109. They would have to anyway unless you are now suggesting the 319 should away from Tooting Bec too. The 319 would only serve one more stop on Streatham High Road before turning off towards Tooting Bec than a bus which terminates at Streatham Station. Personally I fully agree Streatham Station is a terrible terminus from the south because it means a long walk and having to cross a major junction to get into the central area, which is centred around the Becmead Avenue stop. But the 319 has the same problem as it will be heading west before that point, so still leaving passengers with a walk including having to cross the dangerous St Leonard's junction which has seen people killed using it. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2013 14:06:14 GMT
But if it only goes to Streatham people going further will still wait for the 109. I don't go along with this 'unreliable' argument and as for dead running well most routes have that already so I don't see why it should be a particular problem in this case. Not really, besides, it all depends on what comes first to the bus stop, plus the 64 will cater for anyone who wants London Road, Norbury & Streatham Common leaving people who need Streatham Hill & Brixton the 109. If you also look at it from a different angle, not everyone who gets the 109 to Brixton just gets off and that's it - they do board other buses as well so anyone needing the 133 or 159 could get off at the Hub from a 64 without the overcrowding issue. Lastly, the people east of Croydon, particularly at Park Hill, Croham Valley Road & Selsdon get new links further north than Thornton Heath Pond. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2013 14:19:45 GMT
The purpose is not about providing a link between Croydon and Central London (well Sloane Square anyway), extending the 109 would be better for that role. It may not be the purpose, but it would be the effect. The fact that it is not seen as a good idea to have a shorter and direct daytime route from Croydon to central London should show why a circuitous and longer one is such a terrible idea. But if it only goes to Streatham people going further will still wait for the 109. They would have to anyway unless you are now suggesting the 319 should away from Tooting Bec too. The 319 would only serve one more stop on Streatham High Road before turning off towards Tooting Bec than a bus which terminates at Streatham Station. Personally I fully agree Streatham Station is a terrible terminus from the south because it means a long walk and having to cross a major junction to get into the central area, which is centred around the Becmead Avenue stop. But the 319 has the same problem as it will be heading west before that point, so still leaving passengers with a walk including having to cross the dangerous St Leonard's junction which has seen people killed using it. But anyone getting a bus from Croydon to the Hub wanting Becmead Avenue wouldn't really make sense when the 109 serves the central area already so anyone wanting the central area would be better off sticking with that. The extended 64 is about relieving overcrowding from the 109 between Streatham & Croydon, not linking the central area up with Croydon. Croydon & the central area in Streatham already has the 50 & 250 alongside the 109. As for dangerous junctions, that junction is dangerous but it won't deter people from crossing, otherwise me & all the other local residents wouldn't cross at the Brixton Water Lane junction on Brixton Hill to get to our homes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2013 14:48:36 GMT
The purpose is not about providing a link between Croydon and Central London (well Sloane Square anyway), extending the 109 would be better for that role. It may not be the purpose, but it would be the effect. The fact that it is not seen as a good idea to have a shorter and direct daytime route from Croydon to central London should show why a circuitous and longer one is such a terrible idea. But if it only goes to Streatham people going further will still wait for the 109. They would have to anyway unless you are now suggesting the 319 should away from Tooting Bec too. The 319 would only serve one more stop on Streatham High Road before turning off towards Tooting Bec than a bus which terminates at Streatham Station. Personally I fully agree Streatham Station is a terrible terminus from the south because it means a long walk and having to cross a major junction to get into the central area, which is centred around the Becmead Avenue stop. But the 319 has the same problem as it will be heading west before that point, so still leaving passengers with a walk including having to cross the dangerous St Leonard's junction which has seen people killed using it. Most people want to go further than north than Streatham. The fact that the route between Croydon and Sloane Square is circuitous doesn't really matter, its not designed for end to end passengers. The reason we have shorter routes is for tendering reasons, not many operators would be able to bid for routes with large PVR's. Ideally the 319 or 109 would go beyond Croydon to New Addington replacing the 64 (no more wasteful overlap between West Croydon and TH) although under the current set up that's never going to happen. The 319 could remain at x8mins with the 109 reduced to x8mins. |
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Post by John tuthill on Jun 14, 2013 19:13:59 GMT
It may not be the purpose, but it would be the effect. The fact that it is not seen as a good idea to have a shorter and direct daytime route from Croydon to central London should show why a circuitous and longer one is such a terrible idea. They would have to anyway unless you are now suggesting the 319 should away from Tooting Bec too. The 319 would only serve one more stop on Streatham High Road before turning off towards Tooting Bec than a bus which terminates at Streatham Station. Personally I fully agree Streatham Station is a terrible terminus from the south because it means a long walk and having to cross a major junction to get into the central area, which is centred around the Becmead Avenue stop. But the 319 has the same problem as it will be heading west before that point, so still leaving passengers with a walk including having to cross the dangerous St Leonard's junction which has seen people killed using it. Most people want to go further than north than Streatham. The fact that the route between Croydon and Sloane Square is circuitous doesn't really matter, its not designed for end to end passengers. The reason we have shorter routes is for tendering reasons, not many operators would be able to bid for routes with large PVR's. Ideally the 319 or 109 would go beyond Croydon to New Addington replacing the 64 (no more wasteful overlap between West Croydon and TH) although under the current set up that's never going to happen. The 319 could remain at x8mins with the 109 reduced to x8mins. Surely the best "link to Central London" is a train from East Croydon to Victoria? Or am I missing something? |
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Post by Connor on Jun 14, 2013 21:02:44 GMT
Surely the best "link to Central London" is a train from East Croydon to Victoria? Or am I missing something? Cost. A train from Zone 5 to Zone 1 ain't cheap! |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2013 21:16:25 GMT
Surely the best "link to Central London" is a train from East Croydon to Victoria? Or am I missing something? Or a 468 and a short hop on another bus at the the Elephant if you're desperate to use a bus. Or heading to Central London in the morning peak, the X68 gets you to Russell Square. |
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Post by Connor on Jun 14, 2013 21:42:00 GMT
Neither is it cheap for TFL to provide a long bus service from Croydon to Victoria when it's possible in two shorter routes. Could that not be said of a certain route 25? Or a 468 and a short hop on another bus at the the Elephant if you're desperate to use a bus. Or heading to Central London in the morning peak, the X68 gets you to Russell Square. Have we not discussed having a new limited stop route from Croydon to Central London like the X68, but along the London Road and Streatham? I have found taking the 50 or 109 to St Leonard's Church, then changing for the 159 into Central London faster than taking the X68 and definitely much faster than a 468. |
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Post by John tuthill on Jun 14, 2013 21:59:19 GMT
Surely the best "link to Central London" is a train from East Croydon to Victoria? Or am I missing something? Cost. A train from Zone 5 to Zone 1 ain't cheap! Fair point(No pun intended.) I suppose it depends on how quickly you want to get from Croydon into London |
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Post by LX09FBJ on Jun 14, 2013 22:18:30 GMT
In the old days, you'd get one bus from Hounslow to Stoke Newington. Today, you have to go to White City (almost the entire 237 route), then a 148 to Hyde Park Corner/Victoria, then the 73 to Stoke Newington.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2013 13:47:43 GMT
Cost. A train from Zone 5 to Zone 1 ain't cheap! Neither is it cheap for TFL to provide a long bus service from Croydon to Victoria when it's possible in two shorter routes. Well that's just it, in most cases it isn't cheaper to run two short routes, there's an overlap and more stand time to factor in which pushes the PVR up accordingly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2013 13:50:38 GMT
Most people want to go further than north than Streatham. The fact that the route between Croydon and Sloane Square is circuitous doesn't really matter, its not designed for end to end passengers. The reason we have shorter routes is for tendering reasons, not many operators would be able to bid for routes with large PVR's. Ideally the 319 or 109 would go beyond Croydon to New Addington replacing the 64 (no more wasteful overlap between West Croydon and TH) although under the current set up that's never going to happen. The 319 could remain at x8mins with the 109 reduced to x8mins. Surely the best "link to Central London" is a train from East Croydon to Victoria? Or am I missing something? Yes a train is obviously the best option but that's a seperate issue. I was talking about extending the 319 to Croydon to support the 109, not to provide a link to Central London. |
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Post by Connor on Jun 15, 2013 23:17:39 GMT
New route 301, East Croydon Station to Wandsworth Plain Via:
- Whitgift Centre
- West Croydon
- Thornton Heath Pond/ Croydon University Hospital
- Norbury Station
- Streatham
- Streatham Hill
- Clapham Park
- Clapham South
- The Avenue
- Clapham Junction/ St John's Hill
- Wandsworth/ Wandsworth Plain
Every 10 minutes, operated via Arriva from TH with DLA/VLW buses. One of the stand/stops at East Croydon station cleared for use as the terminus for the 301. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 16, 2013 2:11:53 GMT
New route 301, East Croydon Station to Wandsworth Plain Via:
- Whitgift Centre
- West Croydon
- Thornton Heath Pond/ Croydon University Hospital
- Norbury Station
- Streatham
- Streatham Hill
- Clapham Park
- Clapham South
- The Avenue
- Clapham Junction/ St John's Hill
- Wandsworth/ Wandsworth Plainy
- London Road (via Norbury and Thornton Heath Pond)
- West Croydon
Every 10 minutes, operated via Arriva from TC with DLA/VLW buses. One of the stand/stops at East Croydon station cleared for use as the terminus for the 301. The stand on Wandsworth Plain is used by the 87 along with the bus stop for the 39, 87 & 156. It would be better for the route to terminate at the unused stand on Armoury Way. As for East Croydon, what stop at East Croydon would you clear - I'm guessing your on about bus stop E1? |
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Post by M1104 on Jun 16, 2013 5:20:23 GMT
New route 301, East Croydon Station to Wandsworth Plain Via:
- Whitgift Centre
- West Croydon
- Thornton Heath Pond/ Croydon University Hospital
- Norbury Station
- Streatham
- Streatham Hill
- Clapham Park
- Clapham South
- The Avenue
- Clapham Junction/ St John's Hill
- Wandsworth/ Wandsworth Plainy
- London Road (via Norbury and Thornton Heath Pond)
- West Croydon
Every 10 minutes, operated via Arriva from TC with DLA/VLW buses. One of the stand/stops at East Croydon station cleared for use as the terminus for the 301. Arriva could also base the route at WD where the 337 used to be. As for the bus types specified, they would be deemed too old for a new TfL contract, unless the VLWs are new B9TLs. |
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