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Post by M1104 on Mar 6, 2013 3:21:02 GMT
Have TfL withdrawn the 73 as well? That provides the primary Oxford Circus - Victoria link. It, of course, replaced the 500 Red Arrow about 20 years ago. Where we do now have a weakness is the lack of buses between the City / Holborn and Victoria. This is where the loss of the 8 and 25 is most marked. There is only the 11 (I think) between parts of the City and Victoria. Years ago we had the 8, 11, 25, 76 and 149 (some of these peak only) that linked the City and Victoria. I agree about the lack of links between Victoria and the City - the District Line partly compensates for this but of course that can get very crowded. Another one that struck me as odd was no link between London Bridge and London Victoria - this one is frankly quite bizarre. Given various services to the south-east of England run from Victoria and London Bridge, this did strike me as odd. Of course, from most Southern stations there's generally semi-frequent links to both stations, especially because of the Outer South London line, but at Southeastern stations, even those with a service to both terminals often have a far less frequent service to Victoria. A lot of Kent and SE London stations only have a link to Victoria - even if you wanted to get further out to somewhere like Greenhithe from Bromley, you'd have to go into Victoria, then onto the Jubilee, then onto the District, then from London Bridge - rather circuitous and long for a link not *that* far away. I believe the last direct day bus link that served both Victoria and London Bridge was the 70A, which was then shortened and renumbered as P11 before being renumbered again as the 381.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 6, 2013 4:07:31 GMT
I agree about the lack of links between Victoria and the City - the District Line partly compensates for this but of course that can get very crowded. Another one that struck me as odd was no link between London Bridge and London Victoria - this one is frankly quite bizarre. Given various services to the south-east of England run from Victoria and London Bridge, this did strike me as odd. Of course, from most Southern stations there's generally semi-frequent links to both stations, especially because of the Outer South London line, but at Southeastern stations, even those with a service to both terminals often have a far less frequent service to Victoria. A lot of Kent and SE London stations only have a link to Victoria - even if you wanted to get further out to somewhere like Greenhithe from Bromley, you'd have to go into Victoria, then onto the Jubilee, then onto the District, then from London Bridge - rather circuitous and long for a link not *that* far away. I believe the last direct day bus link that served both Victoria and London Bridge was the 70A, which was then shortened and renumbered as P11 before being renumbered again as the 381. You did have the SL1/SL2 services which served all the train stations surrounding Central London & later on, the limited stop 705 which ran from Paddington to Liverpool Street via Victoria, Waterloo & London Bridge - it was run by Thorpes using Pointer Darts. I think the 705 replaced the SL1/SL2 but it too was withdrawn due to low patronage.
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Post by Steve80 on Mar 6, 2013 5:28:03 GMT
Have TfL withdrawn the 73 as well? That provides the primary Oxford Circus - Victoria link. It, of course, replaced the 500 Red Arrow about 20 years ago. Where we do now have a weakness is the lack of buses between the City / Holborn and Victoria. This is where the loss of the 8 and 25 is most marked. There is only the 11 (I think) between parts of the City and Victoria. Years ago we had the 8, 11, 25, 76 and 149 (some of these peak only) that linked the City and Victoria. I agree about the lack of links between Victoria and the City - the District Line partly compensates for this but of course that can get very crowded. Another one that struck me as odd was no link between London Bridge and London Victoria - this one is frankly quite bizarre. Given various services to the south-east of England run from Victoria and London Bridge, this did strike me as odd. Of course, from most Southern stations there's generally semi-frequent links to both stations, especially because of the Outer South London line, but at Southeastern stations, even those with a service to both terminals often have a far less frequent service to Victoria. A lot of Kent and SE London stations only have a link to Victoria - even if you wanted to get further out to somewhere like Greenhithe from Bromley, you'd have to go into Victoria, then onto the Jubilee, then onto the District, then from London Bridge - rather circuitous and long for a link not *that* far away. A link from trafalgar square to london bridge would also be good. Had lots of passengers asking how to get to london bridge and I normally tell them to get the 15 as that goes to the monument. But I do recall one passenger boarding my route 3 at trafalgar sq asking how to get there and I told her to get the 15. She replied that the driver said he didn't go there ;D Had to explain to her that the 15 goes to monument which is close to london bridge
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 6, 2013 7:27:23 GMT
But what if the current operator runs the route well? I think part of what this thread is ignoring is that dead mileage is not the only factor behind an operator's ability to run a route - case in point is how Metrobus took the 54, 181, 284 from Stagecoach. Regarding the 181 & 284 I used to think that it was a bad idea for Metrobus to operate those routes again, but they operate them far better than Stagecoach ever did. I'm glad they retained both routes. Also Metrobus taking over the 202 was probably the best thing that happened I was seriously fed up of Selkent putting 8.9m MPDs/ALX 200s on the route which were totally inadequate, I have only ever seen 1 8.9m E200 on the 202 with Metrobus. Over the last 7 years the 284 has become a much better service and operated from a Garage much further than the garage on its doorstep. The 181 could be a bit better. With Stagecoach the 284 service was unreliable and had an inadequate timetable.
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 6, 2013 7:32:12 GMT
Some route swaps could take place that would save money all round, for example.. 33 - To Abellio (Twickenham) 57 - To London General ( AL ) or Arriva London ( BN) 117 - To London United (HH) 235 - To London United (HH) 285 - To Abellio ( Twickenham or Hayes) 293 - To Quality Line 411/641 - To London United (TV) 465 - To London United (TV) K1/K3 - Reversed to remain at London United (TV) R70 - To London United ( FW) 290 - To London United (FW) But what if the current operator runs the route well? Well said, there are many examples like that.
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 6, 2013 7:36:02 GMT
Some route swaps could take place that would save money all round, for example.. 33 - To Abellio (Twickenham) 57 - To London General ( AL ) or Arriva London ( BN) 117 - To London United (HH) 235 - To London United (HH) 285 - To Abellio ( Twickenham or Hayes) 293 - To Quality Line 411/641 - To London United (TV) 465 - To London United (TV) K1/K3 - Reversed to remain at London United (TV) R70 - To London United ( FW) 290 - To London United (FW) Regarding the 33, 285, 290, R70 Not really at all, both TF / FW are actually neighbours. Just Like BC / C.
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Post by DT 11 on Mar 6, 2013 8:04:51 GMT
Some route swaps could take place that would save money all round, for example.. 33 - To Abellio (Twickenham) 57 - To London General ( AL ) or Arriva London ( BN) 117 - To London United (HH) 235 - To London United (HH) 285 - To Abellio ( Twickenham or Hayes) 293 - To Quality Line 411/641 - To London United (TV) 465 - To London United (TV) K1/K3 - Reversed to remain at London United (TV) R70 - To London United ( FW) 290 - To London United (FW) Regarding the 33, 285, 290, R70 Not really at all, both TF / FW are actually neighbours. Just Like BC / C. There are many routes which have garages closer to them and they are run from a distance. Route X26 could be operated by Abellio from BC or TF, Arriva TC or CN, First from HS or UX, Go Ahead London from A, Metrobus from C, London United from FW, Metroline from PA. The closest garage to the beginning/end is actually TC and Quality Line operate it.
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Post by John tuthill on Mar 6, 2013 9:56:34 GMT
A link from trafalgar square to london bridge would also be good. Had lots of passengers asking how to get to london bridge and I normally tell them to get the 15 as that goes to the monument. But I do recall one passenger boarding my route 3 at trafalgar sq asking how to get there and I told her to get the 15. She replied that the driver said he didn't go there ;D Had to explain to her that the 15 goes to monument which is close to london bridge London Bridge doesn't seem particularly easy to get westward from! Most routes either go northward to Moorgate/Liverpool Street, or southwards to Borough! Unless you change at Holborn or Aldywch from the 17/521/RV1 then it is basically a case of walking to Monument. Even there, the 15 doesn't reach Oxford Street anymore! One of the factors could well be where are people working these days? The 'City' to a large extent has migrated to Canary Wharf, which now has the DLR & the Jubilee Line. Before I retired last year I was working in the City, and what struck me was the lack of foot traffic across London Bridge, compared to those old B&W films of the 50s which showed a tide of bowler hats! Another factor is the loss of engineering jobs, take Park Royal as an example, apart from the bus factory the area was a hive of industry, now its small units or offices. Remember the 220 used to divert into Park Royal during the rush hour, and the 12 ran basically a shuttle between Park Royal Stadium(it was a greyhound track) and Shepherds Bush, similarly Brentford used to be an industrial area.
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Post by M1104 on Mar 6, 2013 10:09:18 GMT
I agree about the lack of links between Victoria and the City - the District Line partly compensates for this but of course that can get very crowded. Another one that struck me as odd was no link between London Bridge and London Victoria - this one is frankly quite bizarre. Given various services to the south-east of England run from Victoria and London Bridge, this did strike me as odd. Of course, from most Southern stations there's generally semi-frequent links to both stations, especially because of the Outer South London line, but at Southeastern stations, even those with a service to both terminals often have a far less frequent service to Victoria. A lot of Kent and SE London stations only have a link to Victoria - even if you wanted to get further out to somewhere like Greenhithe from Bromley, you'd have to go into Victoria, then onto the Jubilee, then onto the District, then from London Bridge - rather circuitous and long for a link not *that* far away. A link from trafalgar square to london bridge would also be good. Had lots of passengers asking how to get to london bridge and I normally tell them to get the 15 as that goes to the monument. But I do recall one passenger boarding my route 3 at trafalgar sq asking how to get there and I told her to get the 15. She replied that the driver said he didn't go there ;D Had to explain to her that the 15 goes to monument which is close to london bridge I have had that the other way around many times from my days on the 133 where punters from London Bridge ask for the west end. I also would tell them the 15 (from Monument). A bus link from, say Canada water to the West End via London Bridge, may prove useful.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 6, 2013 10:43:05 GMT
A link from trafalgar square to london bridge would also be good. Had lots of passengers asking how to get to london bridge and I normally tell them to get the 15 as that goes to the monument. But I do recall one passenger boarding my route 3 at trafalgar sq asking how to get there and I told her to get the 15. She replied that the driver said he didn't go there ;D Had to explain to her that the 15 goes to monument which is close to london bridge I have had that the other way around many times from my days on the 133 where punters from London Bridge ask for the west end. I also would tell them the 15 (from Monument). A bus link from, say Canada water to the West End via London Bridge, may prove useful. Withdraw the 415 and use its number for that purpose
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Post by LX09FBJ on Mar 7, 2013 0:04:52 GMT
Some route swaps could take place that would save money all round, for example.. 33 - To Abellio (Twickenham) 57 - To London General ( AL ) or Arriva London ( BN) 117 - To London United (HH) 235 - To London United (HH) 285 - To Abellio ( Twickenham or Hayes) 293 - To Quality Line 411/641 - To London United (TV) 465 - To London United (TV) K1/K3 - Reversed to remain at London United (TV) R70 - To London United ( FW) 290 - To London United (FW) Interesting, Would be nice to see Arriva in Kingston again! (assuming they're not taken over-again) In regards to the 411 and 465, that would probably not happen for at least another two rounds, as apparently Quality Line and London United don't bid against each other (unless they transfer it internally) K1 and K3 to stay at LU deffnately. Has reversal of contracts ever happened? (I belive that all the ex. Challenger services except E11 and 195 are some cases in point) Another I can think of is the 65 going to Metroline (AH), meaning lovely new VWs on that route 285 could run from AH Metroline too, and if 235 went back to LU, hopefully they'd see sense and convert it to double deck (and maybe add a N235-diverted from Sunbury Cross to Staines)
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Post by LX09FBJ on Mar 7, 2013 0:09:15 GMT
I have had that the other way around many times from my days on the 133 where punters from London Bridge ask for the west end. I also would tell them the 15 (from Monument). A bus link from, say Canada water to the West End via London Bridge, may prove useful. Withdraw the 415 and use its number for that purpose Another I have idea is to 'withdraw' the 71 in it's current form, and make the 65 in effect a full 24-hour services (still makes me wonder why it's not N65) and renumber the 371, simply as 71. Also I wonder if London had an STL-era (mid-late 30's to early 50s) bus network, then SW London would have proper links. Another proposal I have had for a while is to make all Night buses into 24-hour counterparts. (some routes though like N5 and N20 would need renumbering though)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2013 0:43:19 GMT
Another I have idea is to 'withdraw' the 71 in it's current form, and make the 65 in effect a full 24-hour services (still makes me wonder why it's not N65) and renumber the 371, simply as 71. Also I wonder if London had an STL-era (mid-late 30's to early 50s) bus network, then SW London would have proper links. Another proposal I have had for a while is to make all Night buses into 24-hour counterparts. (some routes though like N5 and N20 would need renumbering though) I am slightly puzzled as to why it's not the N65, as it covers a substantial longer section than the day route. It also results in a confusing spider map for Chessington, which marks the 65 but provides no indication that it's a night only routing other than making it blue. However, extending the 65 does not sound like a good idea when you consider the reliability issues on the 65 and the resulting length of the route. I'm not sure what you mean by "make all Night buses into 24-hour counterparts" though. I wonder how long it would take the N8 during the day to get from Oxford Circus to Hainault, The Lowe... ;D ;D
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Post by LX09FBJ on Mar 7, 2013 0:44:33 GMT
Another I have idea is to 'withdraw' the 71 in it's current form, and make the 65 in effect a full 24-hour services (still makes me wonder why it's not N65) and renumber the 371, simply as 71. Also I wonder if London had an STL-era (mid-late 30's to early 50s) bus network, then SW London would have proper links. Another proposal I have had for a while is to make all Night buses into 24-hour counterparts. (some routes though like N5 and N20 would need renumbering though) I am slightly puzzled as to why it's not the N65, as it covers a substantial longer section than the day route. It also results in a confusing spider map for Chessington, which marks the 65 but provides no indication that it's a night only routing other than making it blue. However, extending the 65 does not sound like a good idea when you consider the reliability issues on the 65 and the resulting length of the route. I'm not sure what you mean by "make all Night buses into 24-hour counterparts" though. Could be a money saving feautre (making the blindset shorter, you only have one 65, as opposed to a 65 and N65) although some pointless blinds like 'Congratulations' make their way onto it (I wouldn't dream to have a SP at my 'big day' ) The 65 could run in overlapping sections (like Chessington-Ham/Richmond and Kingston-Ealing) The night buses in the way of you have an 87 (Aldwych to Wandsworth) and an N87, which extends to Kingston. In simple terms, make the night bus run all day, thus the 87 becomes Aldwych-Kingston.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 7, 2013 0:44:48 GMT
Another I have idea is to 'withdraw' the 71 in it's current form, and make the 65 in effect a full 24-hour services (still makes me wonder why it's not N65) and renumber the 371, simply as 71. Also I wonder if London had an STL-era (mid-late 30's to early 50s) bus network, then SW London would have proper links. Another proposal I have had for a while is to make all Night buses into 24-hour counterparts. (some routes though like N5 and N20 would need renumbering though) I am slightly puzzled as to why it's not the N65, as it covers a substantial longer section than the day route. It also results in a confusing spider map for Chessington, which marks the 65 but provides no indication that it's a night only routing other than making it blue. However, extending the 65 does not sound like a good idea when you consider the reliability issues on the 65 and the resulting length of the route. I'm not sure what you mean by "make all Night buses into 24-hour counterparts" though. Agree with this in regards to the 65 & the converting of Night routes into 24 hour routes For example, if the N109 was withdrawn and replaced by the already 24 hour 159 & a 24 hour 109, that means people have to make a change which at night isn't really a good idea. A N207 would become the already 24 hour 94, a 24 hour 207 & a 24 hour 427 which requires two changes (the 607 wouldn't become a 24 hour route due to its limited stopping nature).
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