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Post by snoggle on Apr 16, 2013 12:07:37 GMT
The X26 needs a complete re-think. My suggestion would be to try and separate out the shoppers from the airport users. To do that you would need to have a sort of express service and a "semi-fast" service. The express service could get back extended to Bromley. So both routes at every 30 mins, we would have the Airbus ( A26 ) Bromley , non stop , West Wickham, non stop , Croydon , non stop, Sutton , non stop , North Cheam , non stop, Worcester Park, then via a different route as follows, Tolworth Broadway , non stop, Hampton court , non stop, Sunbury Cross, non stop, Terminal 5 and then to Heathrow Central. The X26 can then remain the semi fast service and have more capacity as the Heathrow travellers between Croydon and New Malden would use the A26. I don't use the X26 very much but I know that it is very popular. Surely we actually need to understand how and why people use the service, especially in preference to other services, before we devise a solution. Is it the destinations served, the links covered directly or faster jny times which are driving up patronage? We need some objective data in order to know if putting on double deckers, increasing frequencies or changing the nature of service pattern would be the appropriate solution. It is well known that if you boost frequencies and / or capacity it can be a short term solution because you just get even more patronage and end up back at square one. And now to go into "squiggles on a sheet of paper mode" ;D *If* the overloading is between Croydon and Sutton then there *might* be merit in having a new express starting at Bexleyheath or Bromley through to Croydon and on to Sutton. That would deal with the long standing demands for a south eastern quadrant express plus give some "fast" relief to Sutton. If the issue is Croydon - Sutton - Kingston then perhaps a X213 every 30 mins with some reduction on the stopping 213 to free up some resource. Alternatively cut the 407 back to Caterham - Croydon and extend the 213 on from Sutton to Croydon at existing frequencies with double decks. That would add capacity. Still it's all pointless speculation as there is no money to cater for growing demand. The London Assembly are considering an investigation into the adequacy of the bus network in the light of forecast growth levels. Apparently Enfield Council are doing a "ground up, start with a clean sheet of paper" review of the local bus network to determine what routes are needed in the borough. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with and how different / similar it is to existing services.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 16, 2013 12:20:14 GMT
Cutting the 407 is a bad idea as it means Croydon loses a through route between the south & the west leaving just the 455 to facilitate this link. I prefer to see the 407 upgraded to deckers - it's needed them since Arriva ran the route as even the 10.7m ADL's were inadequate.
As for the X26, I still don't believe deckers is the answer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 17:53:02 GMT
The X26 needs a complete re-think. My suggestion would be to try and separate out the shoppers from the airport users. To do that you would need to have a sort of express service and a "semi-fast" service. The express service could get back extended to Bromley. So both routes at every 30 mins, we would have the Airbus ( A26 ) Bromley , non stop , West Wickham, non stop , Croydon , non stop, Sutton , non stop , North Cheam , non stop, Worcester Park, then via a different route as follows, Tolworth Broadway , non stop, Hampton court , non stop, Sunbury Cross, non stop, Terminal 5 and then to Heathrow Central. The X26 can then remain the semi fast service and have more capacity as the Heathrow travellers between Croydon and New Malden would use the A26. I don't use the X26 very much but I know that it is very popular. Surely we actually need to understand how and why people use the service, especially in preference to other services, before we devise a solution. Is it the destinations served, the links covered directly or faster jny times which are driving up patronage? We need some objective data in order to know if putting on double deckers, increasing frequencies or changing the nature of service pattern would be the appropriate solution. It is well known that if you boost frequencies and / or capacity it can be a short term solution because you just get even more patronage and end up back at square one. And now to go into "squiggles on a sheet of paper mode" ;D *If* the overloading is between Croydon and Sutton then there *might* be merit in having a new express starting at Bexleyheath or Bromley through to Croydon and on to Sutton. That would deal with the long standing demands for a south eastern quadrant express plus give some "fast" relief to Sutton. If the issue is Croydon - Sutton - Kingston then perhaps a X213 every 30 mins with some reduction on the stopping 213 to free up some resource. Alternatively cut the 407 back to Caterham - Croydon and extend the 213 on from Sutton to Croydon at existing frequencies with double decks. That would add capacity. Still it's all pointless speculation as there is no money to cater for growing demand. The London Assembly are considering an investigation into the adequacy of the bus network in the light of forecast growth levels. Apparently Enfield Council are doing a "ground up, start with a clean sheet of paper" review of the local bus network to determine what routes are needed in the borough. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with and how different / similar it is to existing services. I would argue that even if the 213 were extended, the 407 could be left as is - though with single deckers rather than a double deck conversion. Croydon - Sutton would be adequately provided by the 407 if it had deckers. My guess is that the most traffic comes from Croydon - Kingston and Kingston - Heathrow. The alternative on the latter is an overcrowded Enviro200 route, which should've had a double deck conversion by now, and no alternative to the Croydon - Kingston link exists, hence why everyone piles on the X26 - changing at Sutton or Wimbledon to get to Kingston is not an ideal situation.
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Post by marlon101 on Apr 16, 2013 19:23:57 GMT
I agree with you that the shoppers need separating from the express users, though we possibly disagree on the solution. I'd go for re-extending the 213 to Croydon. Then a lot of the route has a parallel and the only other users are likely to be people going through to Heathrow. The 407 would also get support between Sutton and Croydon. I think the 407 is generally adequate for the stopping service between Croydon and Sutton (although it could do with double deckers) and the 213 as well would be a bit excessive. It would also be too slow for journies from Croydon to Kingston compared with the X26. Interesting idea of a seperate Airbus service. I'd suggest a new x30min service from Croydon over the old 726 route to Dartford and then onto Darent Valley Hospital, Bluewater and maybe Ebbsfleet International? One through service from Heathrow to Ebbsfleet would surely be too long, or would it? It certainly would be nice to have a link from South-East London to Ebbsfleet International but I doubt that this would work
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 19:57:28 GMT
I think the 407 is generally adequate for the stopping service between Croydon and Sutton (although it could do with double deckers) and the 213 as well would be a bit excessive. It would also be too slow for journies from Croydon to Kingston compared with the X26. Interesting idea of a seperate Airbus service. I'd suggest a new x30min service from Croydon over the old 726 route to Dartford and then onto Darent Valley Hospital, Bluewater and maybe Ebbsfleet International? One through service from Heathrow to Ebbsfleet would surely be too long, or would it? It certainly would be nice to have a link from South-East London to Ebbsfleet International but I doubt that this would work The old 726 fell down for no other reason simply because it was too long. I think the X26 does push the limit of reliability in the length of a bus route, any longer and it takes too many resources to maintain a reliable service.
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Post by marlon101 on Apr 16, 2013 21:15:43 GMT
It certainly would be nice to have a link from South-East London to Ebbsfleet International but I doubt that this would work The old 726 fell down for no other reason simply because it was too long. I think the X26 does push the limit of reliability in the length of a bus route, any longer and it takes too many resources to maintain a reliable service. That would be my point. Nice idea but just would not work. Perhaps a bit more ideal if some sort of common ticketing could be put together with the coach companies, a decent awareness campaign/tfl formated information and bringing the London - Kent coaches off the A2 Bexley Village stop and actually through the Clock Tower, could provide some decent connections around to Heathrow and Ebbsfleet
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 22:34:32 GMT
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the 148 yet: my experience is only of the route east of Victoria but it seems packed solid at all times of day, and in the morning peak people are frequently left behind. It passes several schools too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 9:24:10 GMT
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the 148 yet: my experience is only of the route east of Victoria but it seems packed solid at all times of day, and in the morning peak people are frequently left behind. It passes several schools too. I agree with the 148. It covers a lot of busy areas - Camberwell, Elephant, Westminster, Victoria, Marble Arch, Notting Hill and Shepherd's Bush/White City. Westfield London probably hasn't helped over the last few years - the route is short enough to be tolerable to do end-to-end.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 10:23:01 GMT
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the 148 yet: my experience is only of the route east of Victoria but it seems packed solid at all times of day, and in the morning peak people are frequently left behind. It passes several schools too. I agree with the 148. It covers a lot of busy areas - Camberwell, Elephant, Westminster, Victoria, Marble Arch, Notting Hill and Shepherd's Bush/White City. Westfield London probably hasn't helped over the last few years - the route is short enough to be tolerable to do end-to-end. The 148 is really a speeded up version of the old 12 route, and yes it always seems to be busy even before Westfield opened.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 10:24:49 GMT
It certainly would be nice to have a link from South-East London to Ebbsfleet International but I doubt that this would work The old 726 fell down for no other reason simply because it was too long. I think the X26 does push the limit of reliability in the length of a bus route, any longer and it takes too many resources to maintain a reliable service. What the X26 does show is how popular limited stop services can be and its a shame there aren't more of them in London, I think the 607 along Uxbridge Road has also been a great success.
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2013 10:29:53 GMT
The old 726 fell down for no other reason simply because it was too long. I think the X26 does push the limit of reliability in the length of a bus route, any longer and it takes too many resources to maintain a reliable service. What the X26 does show is how popular limited stop services can be and its a shame there aren't more of them in London, I think the 607 along Uxbridge Road has also been a great success. The 607 has been success just like the X68. They've survived the cull of limited stop routes most like down to both routes being very busy every day.
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Post by M1104 on Apr 17, 2013 11:08:23 GMT
Was the X53 operation ceased for the opposite reason, lack of success? I seem to remember this route back in the late 80s or early 90's but do not know why it is no longer so.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 11:15:16 GMT
I agree with the 148. It covers a lot of busy areas - Camberwell, Elephant, Westminster, Victoria, Marble Arch, Notting Hill and Shepherd's Bush/White City. Westfield London probably hasn't helped over the last few years - the route is short enough to be tolerable to do end-to-end. The 148 is really a speeded up version of the old 12 route, and yes it always seems to be busy even before Westfield opened. Indeed, the 148 was the true replacement for the 12's western section really. Serves a lot of unique links from Camberwell and Elephant and supports the C1 from Victoria onwards.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 15:57:39 GMT
Wasn't there a 177X as well from Thamesmead ?
There was the X15 from Beckton which also ran on Saturdays.
There was the short lived Airbus spin off 609 from Mortlake to Bank.
Express routes are used in many other cities. I think TfL lack huge amounts of imagination.
End to end standardised routes have their place, but commuters and local residents needs are different to that of tourists .
Money could be saved by re-introducing short workings where the extremity of certain routes don't require the same level of frequency as the middle of the route.
Does the 235 need a bus every 8 mins SunburyVillage to Lower Feltham for example ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 16:08:17 GMT
Wasn't there a 177X as well from Thamesmead ? There was the X15 from Beckton which also ran on Saturdays. There was the short lived Airbus spin off 609 from Mortlake to Bank. Express routes are used in many other cities. I think TfL lack huge amounts of imagination. End to end standardised routes have their place, but commuters and local residents needs are different to that of tourists . Money could be saved by re-introducing short workings where the extremity of certain routes don't require the same level of frequency as the middle of the route. Does the 235 need a bus every 8 mins SunburyVillage to Lower Feltham for example ? I think it was actually numbered 177E. There is certainly plenty of scope for more express routes in London.
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