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Post by DT 11 on Feb 16, 2017 17:14:27 GMT
108  33... 72... 214... H37 as well. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2017 21:45:04 GMT
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Post by Hassaan on Feb 17, 2017 3:11:46 GMT
On NYE I took the 120 from Hounslow Bus Station at 0230. We barely scraped a double-figure number of passengers from Bell Corner, although most did stay on past my stop in Norwood Green (two got off in Heston and therefore could have used the 111). Knew I should have stayed on further to see how busy it was!   However, a later departure from Hounslow would be a good idea, as it is currently 0010, and a 0025 or even a 0040 may be decently loaded. A 24 hour service may make things easier for those working at Heathrow who live in between the bits served by the 111, 105 or 140, but being cynical I have a feeling that it will for most of the night be as empty as the night 474 Oh great, now I have to say something! I know people of south London in particular, get riled up (and rightly so) about pockets of an area/borough not having night links. Judge for yourselves how successful or not they are; but TfL are supposed to provide public transport at night for certain corridors, if the links are needed. The 474 is an example of that. And with the last journey at 01:40 and the first one at 04:10 departing Manor Park, there's really not that many resources to throw to make it 24 hours. It also replaces the N101 by providing links to the Docklands for the DLR depot (at Gallions Reach); tactical use of North Woolwich for the foot-tunnel south of the river to Woolwich, and giving City Airport a night link. Now I get tired of saying this; how can Heathrow have umpteen 24-hour routes going to it and the staff of City Airport can't have the 474? I like to believe being single deck or double deck has nothing to do with getting awarded with 24-hour operation. The 296 simply sees deckers because those are the buses available for drivers to take. It certainly doesn't warrant deckers at night; and should the 396 (which also sees frequent stray deckers) be timed to depart as a leader, then there's arguably no need for deckers on the 296 during the days either. That being said, I've no doubt TfL made the right choice by choosing the 296 over the 66 for weekend-24 status. But not having routes like the P4 or 276 24-hours in any sense is a mistake. The problem with TfL is that they refuse to plan for new night routes but instead make routes 24-hours. It's cost effective (aka cost cutting) by saying the links on the 145 or the 154 for example, only exist at weekends when it's not the case. Re-establish the N213 so you wouldn't have 24-hour 213 and weekend-24 154. 6 buses in total PVR when the N213 only needed 3*; but TfL don't see the logic in having 2 routes for the price of 1, which is what night routes essentially are. *maybe an extra bus would be needed now; dwell times & speed limits have changed in the past decade or so the N213 has gone. Knew you'd reply as soon as I mentioned the 474  . I certainly see your points, and generally agree with them. However, City Airport is much smaller than Heathrow, and therefore a lower number of staff, so usage will be lower for any night routes serving them. Back to the 120, last/first buses from Hounslow are 0010/0430, and from Northolt at 0020/0445, so will need a number of additional trips. A 2bph frequency will need 3 buses as running time is around 30-31 minutes (for the last trips). Maybe I'm just expecting too many passengers at that time of night. Or overestimating the amount of car usage that goes on.  In my extended family, car is king, and using the bus is just not considered if you can drive or have someone available to drive you. Even rail/tube usage is only considered where it will be significantly quicker or easier, with someone picking you up from or dropping you off at the station in the car (I'm often guilty of this  ). When I went out on NYE, there were 3 of us, and the girl was (in typical Asian style ) insisting on using Uber everywhere: Southall Broadway to Harlington Corner (which is direct using the 105), then to Vauxhall (ok, more awkward), and back from Camberwell Green (using EH73 on the 36 there to avoid surge pricing for Uber  ) to Hounslow Bus Station, with the last leg to home being done by bus  (she deserved a full 15 minute wait for the 111 in the rain after wasting so much time earlier ). She just refused to use the Tube, even though Pimlico Station was very close by although it is an extreme case. Over here at uni, all the people that I socialise with stick to Uber late at night after the trains have stopped running. Indeed I was usually the odd one out for wanting to use the night buses to get back  (although those would have required a change from The O2, Brixton, or New Cross. Don't blame them to be fair, when the N551 takes an hour from Trafalgar Square, whereas Uber takes about half that for the same journey and is not much more when the fare is split between 4 people. The only time I've been out with people there (well, Piccadilly Circus), me and the two that lived off Tollgate Road did indeed use the N551 (VN36112!), whereas those for Shadwell or West Ham used Uber. Although I've seen a friend use Uber from Cyprus Station to Prince Regent Lane, but she was very drunk (as usual ) so walking to Beckton Bus Station would be a huge challenge! Having said all that, in the back of my mind I have the funding issues at TfL that have been mentioned many times by snoggle, so I am trying to be realistic about night bus provision. Uber with its easy booking and payment really seems to be the go-to choice for many people now, especially if a journey by public transport would involve a change or anything more than a very short walk. |
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Post by Green Kitten on Feb 17, 2017 12:23:58 GMT
Maybe I'm just expecting too many passengers at that time of night. Or overestimating the amount of car usage that goes on. In my extended family, car is king, and using the bus is just not considered if you can drive or have someone available to drive you. Even rail/tube usage is only considered where it will be significantly quicker or easier, with someone picking you up from or dropping you off at the station in the car (I'm often guilty of this ). When I went out on NYE, there were 3 of us, and the girl was (in typical Asian style ) insisting on using Uber everywhere: Southall Broadway to Harlington Corner (which is direct using the 105), then to Vauxhall (ok, more awkward), and back from Camberwell Green (using EH73 on the 36 there to avoid surge pricing for Uber ) to Hounslow Bus Station, with the last leg to home being done by bus (she deserved a full 15 minute wait for the 111 in the rain after wasting so much time earlier ). She just refused to use the Tube, even though Pimlico Station was very close by although it is an extreme case. Over here at uni, all the people that I socialise with stick to Uber late at night after the trains have stopped running. Indeed I was usually the odd one out for wanting to use the night buses to get back (although those would have required a change from The O2, Brixton, or New Cross. Don't blame them to be fair, when the N551 takes an hour from Trafalgar Square, whereas Uber takes about half that for the same journey and is not much more when the fare is split between 4 people. The only time I've been out with people there (well, Piccadilly Circus), me and the two that lived off Tollgate Road did indeed use the N551 (VN36112!), whereas those for Shadwell or West Ham used Uber. Although I've seen a friend use Uber from Cyprus Station to Prince Regent Lane, but she was very drunk (as usual ) so walking to Beckton Bus Station would be a huge challenge! Having said all that, in the back of my mind I have the funding issues at TfL that have been mentioned many times by snoggle , so I am trying to be realistic about night bus provision. Uber with its easy booking and payment really seems to be the go-to choice for many people now, especially if a journey by public transport would involve a change or anything more than a very short walk. Urgh I know exactly what you mean... I went out on NYE and we decided to get from Liverpool Street to Soho. How many times I suggested that we could take the N8 or the Central Line. Still they insisted on an Uber.  (Though my motivation to getting on the tube/bus was so I didn't have to pay any money, because I'm a cheap stingy f***er, especially after having to pay a £20 entry fee to get in a bar...  ) So we booked an Uber, only for it to not show up after 20 minutes, so things went my way and we got the Central Line instead (I would have preferred the N8 so I could cross it off my list  ) I've given bad luck to all the groups of friends I was with with Ubers, they don't tend to show up ever. Of course I never mind. Another time was after a night out near Embankment. After a 30 minute wait for an Uber we gave up and took a night bus home to Hammersmith. Got the N97 done end-to-end on TLA26... I miss that bus  The only reason I have ever used Uber out of my own will was when I was living in Potters Bar, I had to catch one from Barnet/Cockfosters after an end-to-end ride on the N20/N91 £10 each time |
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Post by enviroPB on Feb 17, 2017 13:26:59 GMT
Hassaan and Green Kitten, I guess I'm lucky in the fact I can still count on 1 hand how many times I've taken an Uber! Even luckier as my 2 times could've been turned into three sub-par experiences as my mate in Manchester forced me to sign up but my card for some reason didn't want to register!! I had no qualms in getting the only proper 24 hour bus in Manchester; route 43, you might want to check it out Hassaan as it also goes to the [Manchester] Airport. Maybe you guys want to take away the workers' night bus there too, to prevent them going to work I admit that I haven't had the pleasure yet of riding the 120, would certainly do it before its contract changes operator. But at best it can only be weekend-24; as it was argued that the 111, 105 and 140 can provide night links along the route. There's also the N9, N207 & N7 for the central London connections but I'm pretty sure the transfer numbers to the N120 would be low. Because I am not too familiar with west London yet, and as I'm envious-turned-jealous of all the 24-hour buses and 22 hour day operated buses, I possibly can't comment further. However I will keep banging the drum that it really doesn't take that much thought into planning out night routes than span to the suburbs; the trick is to try not flood the corridors as you approach central London. Take the N26; composed of day routes 26 and 97. Now the N44; composed of the 44 and 280, with a bit of flesh in central London to make vital night-time connections. Though I agree people would like to stick to what they know when travelling irrespective of day/night, I know how TfL are trying to justify saving money by waving a magic wand to make a route 24 hours at weekends; and it's a whimsical farce. Look at my N213 example....it just doesn't make sense if you can have 1 route doing the job of 2. And let's not also get bogged down by the Night Tube operating 2 nights out of 7 a week. There should've been more of the 17 routes joining the 47, 222 and 238 for full on 24/7 operation; from my perspective I know what they're doing to the night bus network is half-arsed. But might as well make routes like the 123, 145 and 154 at the very least work full-time. I have to cut myslef short before I start proper backseat driving with TfL!
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Post by John tuthill on Feb 20, 2017 9:34:40 GMT
Is this some sort of record? The BBC web page says that night tube staff will be balloted for strike action! Is this something that should have been made aware of at the beginning, or TFL making the rules up on the hoof? It beggars belief!
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Post by snoggle on Feb 20, 2017 12:24:27 GMT
Is this some sort of record? The BBC web page says that night tube staff will be balloted for strike action! Is this something that should have been made aware of at the beginning, or TFL making the rules up on the hoof? It beggars belief! This is what happens when you get a mismatch of expectations and the employer didn't put themselves in the TU's shoes and consider what might be a future concern and try to cover it off in the agreement. Seems the extra drivers were recruited only for 18 months *but* they are TU members and RMT / ASLEF are now saying "how do our night tube members progress in their roles?". To be honest that's a perfectly reasonable question to ask if the issue was *not* dealt with in the agreement that led to the drivers being recruited in the first place. Looks to me as if LU were under ridiculous political pressure to make Night Tube happen and someone took their eye off the ball. The other factor here is the old classic of the TUs seeing new people in position in TfL / LU and politicians making statements and deciding "oh let's see how good these chaps are. Let's see how far we can push things before we either get a decent deal or hit a brick wall." I've had minimal interraction with the TUs in my career but even *I* know this happens - because some RMT people decided to test me out in a negotiation. Thankfully I was not on my own and had a skilled IR / ER person alongside me who sorted things out. However I've never forgotten this little "lesson". I might be wrong in my musings as I haven't seen the respective positions of each party but this sort of stuff is predictable. |
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Post by snoggle on Feb 23, 2017 15:56:49 GMT
A paper from LU about Night Tube implementation confirms that a night bus review is due in the Spring. The milestone section at the end suggests it will be complete by late March. Depending on what internal review / decision making is required we can probably expect to see a further consultation in May or June of this year (my guess - not in the paper). content.tfl.gov.uk/csopp-20170302-part-1-item08-night-tube-implementation.pdf |
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Post by enviroPB on May 20, 2017 14:40:58 GMT
snoggle, I kindly request the 2016/17 figures for the Night Tube routes if you have them available in your usual Excel format  And I'd like to take a start a discussion as to what weekend night routes if any people would nominate for full 24/7 operation. I nominate the 123 as it constantly surpasses the 17 journeys per bus threshhold* every time I use it. Heck, it's the reason why I hike to Wood Green just to have some company on the bus ride home via Ilford. The 145 floats around 14-15 passengers on average, so weekend 24 status is the right call. I would assume the 486 does better than the 132 but need to go to NG and wait it out to have visual confirmation of loadings; as well as revisit the 154 which had very handome loadings when the Night Tube wasn't operational the time I rode it!! *For any members that don't know, 17 is the magical number of passengers a bus needs to have for the bus service to not run at a loss; or breakeven point as the fancy business lingo goes.
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Post by snoggle on May 20, 2017 16:22:52 GMT
snoggle, I kindly request the 2016/17 figures for the Night Tube routes if you have them available in your usual Excel format And I would love to oblige but unless TfL have sneaked the numbers out today (they haven't ) there are no 2016/17 route level numbers in the public domain yet. The election has put paid to the release of all sorts of information. I fear we may be waiting for the best part of a month before anything emerges and the cynic in me says TfL may not release anything on the basis of it being too much bad news. In that case I will have to FOI the information (which will take months) and cause merry hell with the London Assembly and the Mayor. TfL have already stopped providing some info that was agreed as part of the last Transport Committee investigation into buses. The irony is that Val Shawcross insisted on the form of presentation for the numbers and I suspect it was at Val Shawcross's instruction that the data was stopped being provided. I had to FOI that info as well! Therefore TfL / City Hall have form in this area hence my scepticism. It is worth noting that the Transport Committee's recent investigation into Buses should be published not long after the General Election so there will be a flurry of interest then which may give TfL "cover" for not releasing info. There's a Committee meeting on 14 June. Unfortunately they've just switched Committee chairs so the dire Keith Prince is now chair of the Transport Committee. |
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Post by snowman on May 20, 2017 18:09:06 GMT
snoggle, I kindly request the 2016/17 figures for the Night Tube routes if you have them available in your usual Excel format And I'd like to take a start a discussion as to what weekend night routes if any people would nominate for full 24/7 operation. I nominate the 123 as it constantly surpasses the 17 journeys per bus threshhold* every time I use it. Heck, it's the reason why I hike to Wood Green just to have some company on the bus ride home via Ilford. The 145 floats around 14-15 passengers on average, so weekend 24 status is the right call. I would assume the 486 does better than the 132 but need to go to NG and wait it out to have visual confirmation of loadings; as well as revisit the 154 which had very handome loadings when the Night Tube wasn't operational the time I rode it!! *For any members that don't know, 17 is the magical number of passengers a bus needs to have for the bus service to not run at a loss; or breakeven point as the fancy business lingo goes. I suspect that many night routes are virtually empty in one direction, so may need to carry twice as many the other way, but data will show the average. The problem with averages is a route might be busy midnight until 3am, but the buses between 3am and 6am are dead, so might not justify running the whole night, but raw data won't show that. |
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Post by redbus on May 20, 2017 22:34:42 GMT
snoggle , I kindly request the 2016/17 figures for the Night Tube routes if you have them available in your usual Excel format And I'd like to take a start a discussion as to what weekend night routes if any people would nominate for full 24/7 operation. I nominate the 123 as it constantly surpasses the 17 journeys per bus threshhold* every time I use it. Heck, it's the reason why I hike to Wood Green just to have some company on the bus ride home via Ilford. The 145 floats around 14-15 passengers on average, so weekend 24 status is the right call. I would assume the 486 does better than the 132 but need to go to NG and wait it out to have visual confirmation of loadings; as well as revisit the 154 which had very handome loadings when the Night Tube wasn't operational the time I rode it!! *For any members that don't know, 17 is the magical number of passengers a bus needs to have for the bus service to not run at a loss; or breakeven point as the fancy business lingo goes. Does the magical 17 passenger number just apply to night buses or to day buses as well? |
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Post by snoggle on May 20, 2017 23:40:40 GMT
I suspect that many night routes are virtually empty in one direction, so may need to carry twice as many the other way, but data will show the average. The problem with averages is a route might be busy midnight until 3am, but the buses between 3am and 6am are dead, so might not justify running the whole night, but raw data won't show that. Others on here will know far better than I do as my night bus use is very limited. However my experience is that something like the N73 certainly wasn't empty in both directions. Yes the flow out of town is busier but it was not unusual for buses to fill up progressively once you get to Zone 2 and then to be full from Kings Cross onwards. Night tube will have changed that on some routes obviously but I've never used the Night Tube. I would expect the N123 to do reasonably well in both directions at weekends solely because it links so many radial corridors plus three tube lines. I agree some other routes may be very lopsided in their patronage - not sure how many people will be riding through Ally Pally on the NW3 but can certainly see it loading from Finsbury Park to Crouch End and beyond. |
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Post by enviroPB on May 21, 2017 3:06:47 GMT
snoggle , I kindly request the 2016/17 figures for the Night Tube routes if you have them available in your usual Excel format And I'd like to take a start a discussion as to what weekend night routes if any people would nominate for full 24/7 operation. I nominate the 123 as it constantly surpasses the 17 journeys per bus threshhold* every time I use it. Heck, it's the reason why I hike to Wood Green just to have some company on the bus ride home via Ilford. The 145 floats around 14-15 passengers on average, so weekend 24 status is the right call. I would assume the 486 does better than the 132 but need to go to NG and wait it out to have visual confirmation of loadings; as well as revisit the 154 which had very handome loadings when the Night Tube wasn't operational the time I rode it!! *For any members that don't know, 17 is the magical number of passengers a bus needs to have for the bus service to not run at a loss; or breakeven point as the fancy business lingo goes. Does the magical 17 passenger number just apply to night buses or to day buses as well? I believe this applies to every TfL contracted service. snowman I may have gone about asking this the wrong way; are there any observations from anyone that a weekend night route is really loaded well was the jist I was aiming for. Route N123 is the only local route I know of that gets constant high flows of passengers; high 20s on average (26 in my recent 03:05 journey from Wood Green last night) and I've witnessed 43 passengers on one end-to-end. Other routes like the 145N, 296N and dare I say N238 during weeknight operation don't see the levels the weekend 123 sees. I suspect other routes like the 486, 154 and 114 all see decent figures at well; but you're right, at this point it's all guesswork. snoggle you mean to tell me you haven't experienced the personified feeling of lonesomeness on an out-of-town night bus that is the Night Tube?! You're not missing out on much; but if the connections between bus and train works in your favour then you could see a good 20-30 mins shaved off your journey. Trouble is sod's law can always apply and there can never be enough foreplanning for that! |
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Post by snoggle on May 21, 2017 9:59:57 GMT
snoggle you mean to tell me you haven't experienced the personified feeling of lonesomeness on an out-of-town night bus that is the Night Tube?! You're not missing out on much; but if the connections between bus and train works in your favour then you could see a good 20-30 mins shaved off your journey. Trouble is sod's law can always apply and there can never be enough foreplanning for that! In theory I have more buses to and from the tube in the middle of the night at weekends than I do during the peaks on a weekday (7 bph as opposed to 5.5). Someone work that one out! Even if the N73 goes down to 4 bph I will *still* have more buses at night than during the peaks. And people wonder why I complain about the stupid headway on the 123. |
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However, a later departure from Hounslow would be a good idea, as it is currently 0010, and a 0025 or even a 0040 may be decently loaded. A 24 hour service may make things easier for those working at Heathrow who live in between the bits served by the 111, 105 or 140, but being cynical I have a feeling that it will for most of the night be as empty as the night 474 
In my extended family, car is king, and using the bus is just not considered if you can drive or have someone available to drive you. Even rail/tube usage is only considered where it will be significantly quicker or easier, with someone picking you up from or dropping you off at the station in the car (I'm often guilty of this 
) to Hounslow Bus Station, with the last leg to home being done by bus 
(she deserved a full 15 minute wait for the 111 in the rain after wasting so much time earlier 
(although those would have required a change from The O2, Brixton, or New Cross. Don't blame them to be fair, when the N551 takes an hour from Trafalgar Square, whereas Uber takes about half that for the same journey and is not much more when the fare is split between 4 people. The only time I've been out with people there (well, Piccadilly Circus), me and the two that lived off Tollgate Road did indeed use the N551 (VN36112!), whereas those for Shadwell or West Ham used Uber. Although I've seen a friend use Uber from Cyprus Station to Prince Regent Lane, but she was very drunk (as usual 
)
)
