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Post by 6HP502C on Aug 5, 2017 16:52:37 GMT
I know it's slightly off topic, but if you give me a chance, I'll relate it back to the topic thread I promise  Was milling around last night as per, and got to Newham Town Hall at 01:35 knowing the N238 is scheduled to come soon. Instead, 19744 was already at the High Street North stop, 4 minutes early and was killing time along Barking Road by driving 10-15mph all the way to Barking. I had to have a chat with the driver at the end (he was a WH driver) and said that from Stratford Park until East Ham Station, the N238 observes a 20mph limit. I also mentioned some observations of some BK drivers (who predominantly work the N238 duties) leaving Stratford 6 minutes late; observe the 20mph limit until East Ham and 30mph to Barking then on and finish on time! The driver was in agony about the N238 being so padded in time, and I offered him no comfort. "During the Olympics when the night bus ran, it was 15-17 minutes journey time. Now it's 23-26 minutes!" Padding on weekend night routes are very tricky for drivers to work out. Often it's 20mph zones scattered on a route, with most drivers adopting a 'go slow' method until they're effectively on time and then late from being in a 30mph zone. Route N123 has a lot of time around Tottenham Hale but then drivers forget about the 40mph along Woodford Avenue so often get into Gants Hill late. It seems to me that training was rife at the start of contracts, but the need for night drivers sees a lax in rules. After all, most of these speed limits in residental areas are in place to stop complaints. If TfL don't adhere to their own rules they set in place; it's a downright breakdown in relations with parties affected [namely residents trying to sleep] and shows TfL having a 'we can do what we like' ethos.   17 minutes is tight - even I couldn't do it that in less than 20 when driving the replacement bus between Stratford and Barking after midnight - and that was limited stop with less faffing around Barking! |
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Post by 700101 on Aug 5, 2017 17:31:33 GMT
Was out in Shoreditch last night - ended up in Underbelly for our sins 
Hometime came - the perfect opportunity to try out the 47! We just missed the 03.16 bus, so grabbed some food and headed south. After around 12 minutes, a 35 turned up and we took it down to Borough, where there are several options to get to Lewisham. Annoyingly we watched a N199 go out ahead of us at Monument and couldn't catch it.
In the end, the next bus that came was the 03.46 47. Fairly loaded, around 30 people on. Progress was funereal - we were pootling along at 10mph, yet on at least a couple of occasions, there were people running down the street screaming because they missed the bus. Despite crawling along, we were running early. The use of the "service regulation" announcement whilst sat on the Tower Bridge Road was enough to seriously put the wind up those of us who were still awake. I thought "this is ridiculous" and checked the schedule on Tower Bridge Road - another 30 minutes to get to Lewisham   . The hum of the hybrid's engine had all but succeeded in sending most of the passengers to sleep - save for the couple who sat in the seats in front of me and proceeded to keep each other entertained. Unfortunately, the reflection in the window opposite told the full story of what was going on. Classy stuff!
There were around 20 people waiting for buses at Canada Water, just after 4am at this point. A handful boarded the 47. Finally, the pace livened up a little after Deptford and we were safely deposited at our destination. I have used Night Tube to connect with the 47 to reach Lewisham - fantastic interchange. Will be even better when Night LO comes in - happy to travel to NXG and take a bus from there!
It's great to have a direct link from Shoreditch, but I'm quite happy not to use a bus which is timed to take almost 50 minutes to do a journey which should take around 35. In future it'll be the 35 to Borough and wait for the N21. The N21 is always late on weekends, but this really isn't a problem. It's predictable and we have access to quality information on bus arrivals. It also means the drivers don't hang around. All things considered, including the lessened likelihood of falling asleep and missing the stop, actually makes it a more attractive service to use than the 47. The only thing is the N21 is much busier. Ob - WHV6 was on the N21 last night. The 47's night running time is very annoying, I use It regularly when going to/from work if I'm on earlies or late shifts. Going to London Bridge it does fairly good with hardly any slow running, once I've dispatched last trains from London Bridge 47 is the only way home which does have me falling asleep sometimes I've known drivers to deliberately run between 5-10 mins late in order to avoid driving at a snail pace hopefully they sort this out soon but when it does run slightly late the bus can be heaving sometimes which leaves the N199 looking like a ghost town and has some buses terminate early at Lewisham |
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Post by Hassaan on Aug 5, 2017 17:32:01 GMT
Was out in Shoreditch last night - ended up in Underbelly for our sins
Hometime came - the perfect opportunity to try out the 47! We just missed the 03.16 bus, so grabbed some food and headed south. After around 12 minutes, a 35 turned up and we took it down to Borough, where there are several options to get to Lewisham. Annoyingly we watched a N199 go out ahead of us at Monument and couldn't catch it.
In the end, the next bus that came was the 03.46 47. Fairly loaded, around 30 people on. Progress was funereal - we were pootling along at 10mph, yet on at least a couple of occasions, there were people running down the street screaming because they missed the bus. Despite crawling along, we were running early. The use of the "service regulation" announcement whilst sat on the Tower Bridge Road was enough to seriously put the wind up those of us who were still awake. I thought "this is ridiculous" and checked the schedule on Tower Bridge Road - another 30 minutes to get to Lewisham  . The hum of the hybrid's engine had all but succeeded in sending most of the passengers to sleep - save for the couple who sat in the seats in front of me and proceeded to keep each other entertained. Unfortunately, the reflection in the window opposite told the full story of what was going on. Classy stuff!
There were around 20 people waiting for buses at Canada Water, just after 4am at this point. A handful boarded the 47. Finally, the pace livened up a little after Deptford and we were safely deposited at our destination. I have used Night Tube to connect with the 47 to reach Lewisham - fantastic interchange. Will be even better when Night LO comes in - happy to travel to NXG and take a bus from there!
It's great to have a direct link from Shoreditch, but I'm quite happy not to use a bus which is timed to take almost 50 minutes to do a journey which should take around 35. In future it'll be the 35 to Borough and wait for the N21. The N21 is always late on weekends, but this really isn't a problem. It's predictable and we have access to quality information on bus arrivals. It also means the drivers don't hang around. All things considered, including the lessened likelihood of falling asleep and missing the stop, actually makes it a more attractive service to use than the 47. The only thing is the N21 is much busier. Ob - WHV6 was on the N21 last night. When I did both the N1 and N199 a couple of months ago, the drivers were slow until about Surrey Quays then they really sped up! This also happened on the N3 around Herne Hill and on N68 around Denmark Hill. I remember there was also some difference on the N8 east of Stratford but not as much. |
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Post by 6HP502C on Aug 5, 2017 19:24:15 GMT
The 47's night running time is very annoying, I use It regularly when going to/from work if I'm on earlies or late shifts. Going to London Bridge it does fairly good with hardly any slow running, once I've dispatched last trains from London Bridge 47 is the only way home which does have me falling asleep sometimes I've known drivers to deliberately run between 5-10 mins late in order to avoid driving at a snail pace hopefully they sort this out soon but when it does run slightly late the bus can be heaving sometimes which leaves the N199 looking like a ghost town and has some buses terminate early at Lewisham Interesting. Luckily in London we have a fantastic and increasing comprehensive night bus network, but one of the aspects that can be off-putting from a customer perspective is grossly excessive running times where it's clearly not necessary. I think you should certainly write in to TfL and reiterate what you've posted here. If it's brought to TfL's attention, it will be forwarded to the relevant department. I wouldn't like to predict what the outcome may be, especially as it's on a temporary but long-term diversion whilst Tooley Street is closed. The best that can be hoped for is a bit of shuffling around in the sb direction, so all the resilience is padded into the section between Shoreditch and Borough, Great Dover Street (we all know Shoreditch can be unpredictable on weekends). South of Borough, traffic levels are consistently low at night, so it should be timed to run at a normal speed, with the remainder of the slack put into the layover at Bellingham. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2017 22:55:23 GMT
Probably best not start withdrawing night buses just yet
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Post by snoggle on Aug 6, 2017 9:49:27 GMT
Probably best not start withdrawing night buses just yet The service ended up being wholly suspended. Bet that brought the pains on for some people forced to use night buses instead. I was going to do some night bus photography last night but was too knackered. Would have been funny to have seen how people reacted to their being no service. I understand too many Night Tube drivers have now moved on to "day" tube driving that the Picc Line night service is understaffed. District Dave Forum says 11 drivers short last night. Under the agreements there are two distinct groups of drivers hence the problem as day drivers can't be used. Someone's not been managing recruitment, transfers and training properly by the looks of things. |
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Post by 6HP502C on Aug 6, 2017 11:22:46 GMT
Didn't they they try to stop this by restricting the movement of dedicated Night Tube drivers? A stink was kicked up because of that and now there's problems running the service. Wonder where I can sign up to become an emergency rail replacement driver? Never far from depot and usually free when these dramas kick off. I already know the route from Hyde Park to Heathrow, all stops |
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Post by snowman on Aug 6, 2017 12:15:28 GMT
Probably best not start withdrawing night buses just yet The service ended up being wholly suspended. Bet that brought the pains on for some people forced to use night buses instead. I was going to do some night bus photography last night but was too knackered. Would have been funny to have seen how people reacted to their being no service. I understand too many Night Tube drivers have now moved on to "day" tube driving that the Picc Line night service is understaffed. District Dave Forum says 11 drivers short last night. Under the agreements there are two distinct groups of drivers hence the problem as day drivers can't be used. Someone's not been managing recruitment, transfers and training properly by the looks of things. And apparently these days no trained managers who could be called in to cover, or perhaps they refuse to operate during service hours as well. Why don't they simply do a British airways and introduce a mixed fleet category that can be used for either, or does a stroppy union control the line these days (presumably yes as the daft segregation agreement was enacted) |
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Post by paulsw2 on Aug 6, 2017 12:27:17 GMT
The service ended up being wholly suspended. Bet that brought the pains on for some people forced to use night buses instead. I was going to do some night bus photography last night but was too knackered. Would have been funny to have seen how people reacted to their being no service. I understand too many Night Tube drivers have now moved on to "day" tube driving that the Picc Line night service is understaffed. District Dave Forum says 11 drivers short last night. Under the agreements there are two distinct groups of drivers hence the problem as day drivers can't be used. Someone's not been managing recruitment, transfers and training properly by the looks of things. And apparently these days no trained managers who could be called in to cover, or perhaps they refuse to operate during service hours as well. Why don't they simply do a British airways and introduce a mixed fleet category that can be used for either, or does a stroppy union control the line these days (presumably yes as the daft segregation agreement was enacted) There are 2 types of train operator TO21 which DO not undertake any "night tube working" and TO23 which only work Fri-Sat nights they are completley separate in rosters this was part of the agreement for night tube to be implemented This problem is likely to continue for weeks ahead as more "night tube" T/Ops need to be trained. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 6, 2017 12:32:24 GMT
The service ended up being wholly suspended. Bet that brought the pains on for some people forced to use night buses instead. I was going to do some night bus photography last night but was too knackered. Would have been funny to have seen how people reacted to their being no service. I understand too many Night Tube drivers have now moved on to "day" tube driving that the Picc Line night service is understaffed. District Dave Forum says 11 drivers short last night. Under the agreements there are two distinct groups of drivers hence the problem as day drivers can't be used. Someone's not been managing recruitment, transfers and training properly by the looks of things. And apparently these days no trained managers who could be called in to cover, or perhaps they refuse to operate during service hours as well. Why don't they simply do a British airways and introduce a mixed fleet category that can be used for either, or does a stroppy union control the line these days (presumably yes as the daft segregation agreement was enacted) Oh I think the trade unions knew all along that we'd get to this point. They're not daft. Why would they give way on a more flexible arrangement immediately when they know they will have an opportunity for a later negotiation when a segregated approach fails? This is what happens when you have politically driven timescales for pet projects - the balance of power shifts in the negotiation process from management to staff side. The unions were under no great obligation to be helpful to the night tube's introduction. I think we also have a general pay negotiation looming on the Tube which is going to add to the fun. |
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Post by redexpress on Aug 6, 2017 12:49:55 GMT
Probably best not start withdrawing night buses just yet The service ended up being wholly suspended. Bet that brought the pains on for some people forced to use night buses instead. I was going to do some night bus photography last night but was too knackered. Would have been funny to have seen how people reacted to their being no service. I understand too many Night Tube drivers have now moved on to "day" tube driving that the Picc Line night service is understaffed. District Dave Forum says 11 drivers short last night. Under the agreements there are two distinct groups of drivers hence the problem as day drivers can't be used. Someone's not been managing recruitment, transfers and training properly by the looks of things. I happened to be on the N91 last night - surprisingly it was just as quiet as any other weekend night. I only realised there was a problem on the Picc when we passed Caledonian Road station and saw the gates locked. Even then we only picked up a couple of extra passengers. In fact the run up the Cally was quieter than a typical night-tube night! Then again it always is quieter on this stretch when the students are away. I suspect that many people at this end of the Picc would have shifted to the Vic for part of their journey, perhaps picking up an N29 at Finsbury Park, rather than face a long bus slog all the way from central London. Or shifted to Uber, of course. I guess the N9 and N97 would have been busier as there aren't as many 24-hour rail alternatives out west (though the Central Line might help for some journeys). |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 6, 2017 13:05:39 GMT
I happened to be on the N91 last night - surprisingly it was just as quiet as any other weekend night. I only realised there was a problem on the Picc when we passed Caledonian Road station and saw the gates locked. Even then we only picked up a couple of extra passengers. In fact the run up the Cally was quieter than a typical night-tube night! Then again it always is quieter on this stretch when the students are away. I suspect that many people at this end of the Picc would have shifted to the Vic for part of their journey, perhaps picking up an N29 at Finsbury Park, rather than face a long bus slog all the way from central London. Or shifted to Uber, of course. I guess the N9 and N97 would have been busier as there aren't as many 24-hour rail alternatives out west (though the Central Line might help for some journeys). North London passengers would also have the Night W3 and W7 from Finsbury Park and N41 from Archway to give access to part of the N91 corridor. I suspect night time demand is not terribly high at present as people are on their hols away from London and, as you say, the students are away too. |
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Post by redexpress on Aug 6, 2017 14:19:30 GMT
I happened to be on the N91 last night - surprisingly it was just as quiet as any other weekend night. I only realised there was a problem on the Picc when we passed Caledonian Road station and saw the gates locked. Even then we only picked up a couple of extra passengers. In fact the run up the Cally was quieter than a typical night-tube night! Then again it always is quieter on this stretch when the students are away. I suspect that many people at this end of the Picc would have shifted to the Vic for part of their journey, perhaps picking up an N29 at Finsbury Park, rather than face a long bus slog all the way from central London. Or shifted to Uber, of course. I guess the N9 and N97 would have been busier as there aren't as many 24-hour rail alternatives out west (though the Central Line might help for some journeys). North London passengers would also have the Night W3 and W7 from Finsbury Park and N41 from Archway to give access to part of the N91 corridor. I suspect night time demand is not terribly high at present as people are on their hols away from London and, as you say, the students are away too. Absolutely, Crouch Enders deserted the N91 for the W3/W7 from Finsbury Park as soon as the night tube launched. There are large chunks of Crouch End and Hornsey that are within easy reach of both W3 and W7, so people coming off the tube at FPk have a 5bph service - which is much better than trying to time a connection with a half-hourly service as you have to do with most weekend night routes. Most of the remaining demand on the N91 now is along the Caledonian Road, and to Hornsey Road / Hornsey Rise. I know TfL initially said the N91 wasn't in scope for a reduction, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does get a reduction if/when they pull their finger out with this night bus review. I'd hope that it retains 4bph up to Crouch End - only because that's the most convenient turn beyond Hornsey Rise - but it could easily go down to 2bph further out. I have a sneaking feeling it will go down to 2bph throughout though. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 6, 2017 14:31:25 GMT
I thought the night bus review had already happened and the outcome was services would stay as they.
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Post by snoggle on Aug 6, 2017 14:48:54 GMT
I thought the night bus review had already happened and the outcome was services would stay as they. Not what Val Shawcross said back in 2016. She paused the changes that had been consulted on until "Spring 2017" to give time for changes to demand to become evident. Nothing has been published by TfL since that specifically deals with Night Buses. The Central London bus consultation covered a few night bus changes like the N73 and N15. However what has *actually* happened is that TfL have been cutting night bus frequencies for months and months with no consultation whatsoever. This is just another example of inconsistent behavioutr by politicians who don't keep their promises and TfL who use consultation when it suits them. You either consult on things or you don't. |
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