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Post by RandomBusesGirl on Oct 5, 2017 15:08:42 GMT
I really hope when limited night Overground commences, 75 will at least be added to the weekend night routes - even though 75N should be restored fully - but then 154N has also been snubbed despite 100+ people in the consultation saying it should run 7 nights a week!
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Post by snoggle on Oct 5, 2017 19:11:35 GMT
I also don't agree with the blanket freeze, there is no point in running buses that are no longer needed, it's just a complete and utter waste of resources. I do realise that there are going to be a small number of people worse off but that is an inevitable consequence of any scheme that benefits the vast majority, ie Crossrail and Tramlink. Meanwhile SE London has had little benefit from the night tube and the Vauxhall, Camberwell, Peckham, New Cross corridor urgently needs more resources and South Norwood still doesn't have any night service at all. That’s quite a dangerous road to go down , because If approached as such, you could then justify withdrawing a few routes . So whilst some reductions make sense, others do not. N155 clings onto its excellent headway as well as tube. Oh look it goes through Tooting! Yes of course people just transfer to Uber. If TfL stick to their guns, no more Uber. Piccadilly Line is ineffectual at weekends, no response on the matter despite hundreds of complaints on social media every weekend. People don't seem to have got their logic the right way round here. If you accept TfL's premise which looks to be two-fold - firstly the Night Tube has removed the need for enhanced frequencies at weekends and secondly there is an overall reduction in demand for night buses then there's no argument for more service anywhere. If we accept both of these as most people here seem to do then there is NO justification for any expansion of night bus services. There is demonstrably no need for extra buses in S/SE London if there is no justification for them elsewhere. If TfL can cut weeknight services that MUST mean overall demand is falling *irrespective of the night tube* and on a trend where TfL feels there is ZERO prospect of growth beyond providing 2 buses per hour. This says to me the night time economy and early hours employment is in a mess as I have been stating for months. People are clearly battening the hatches so they can put money aside to cope with the looming interest rises / job cuts / further pressure on wages or they've simply moved away. I don't believe this is exclusive to North London either. Therefore demands for extra night buses in South London are going precisely nowhere. TfL clearly see no issues on the Camberwell corridor or further SE as they happily chopped the N136 a few months back. If your premise is that North London can just "get on with it" in terms of frequency cuts then the argument that South and South East London "get on with it" in terms of whatever perceived inadequacies there are in the night bus network holds just as well. I fully expect the N155 will be hacked back in frequency pretty soon. It used to be full - had a handful of people on it when I saw it in August. Clearly far too many buses on it. A nice half hourly frequency should do OK.  |
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Post by snowman on Oct 5, 2017 19:31:51 GMT
It appears to me that some night routes are there more to complete the network than because there is a demand.
By chance, few weeks back had to get my daughter to her school at 4am to catch a coach to airport for a trip. Two night buses passed, one each way whilst we were waiting, the one towards Kingston was empty, the one from Kingston had 4 passengers. Do you really need an 87 capacity bus for this. In fact do you need the service at all.
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Post by sid on Oct 5, 2017 20:34:57 GMT
It appears to me that some night routes are there more to complete the network than because there is a demand. By chance, few weeks back had to get my daughter to her school at 4am to catch a coach to airport for a trip. Two night buses passed, one each way whilst we were waiting, the one towards Kingston was empty, the one from Kingston had 4 passengers. Do you really need an 87 capacity bus for this. In fact do you need the service at all. I don't know which routes you are referring to but I suppose they may have been busier on another section of the route? It doesn't surprise me though, I'm sometimes out in the early hours and most buses I see are carrying little more than fresh air. The whole nightbus network seems to have been thrown together on an ad hoc basis with excessive levels of service in one area, inadequate levels in another and no night buses at all in others. It's a shame that the weekend tube couldn't have been introduced in one go with the nightbus network revamped simultaneously. Clearly a high frequency on routes like the N29 are no longer needed and the N155 frequency can be halved, still x15 minutes, with resources redeployed elsewhere. Does the N109 need to go to Oxford Circus Fri/Sat night when the Victoria Line is running, surely the N3 and 159 are more than adequate? The buses saved can be used elsewhere, a far more intensive service is needed in South London because of the paucity of tube stations. |
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Post by snoggle on Oct 5, 2017 22:32:49 GMT
The whole nightbus network seems to have been thrown together on an ad hoc basis with excessive levels of service in one area, inadequate levels in another and no night buses at all in others. Oh come on. The Night Bus network has existed for many many decades. Its purpose has changed and evolved over the years. To say it has been "thrown together" is just wrong. You (Philip Wallis) can't write two excellent and comprehensive books about something that's been "thrown together". Just because it doesn't do precisely what you might want to see does not equate to being "thrown together". There have been multiple studies, reviews and planned phased changes over the years. Even the two most recent nightly routes - 222 and 238 - seem to have had a very good start. Until about 2 years ago its demand trajectory was strongly ahead of the rest of the bus network. Clearly we are now in different circumstances - just as the network has been before. As has been much debated Uber and their ilf, the Night Tube, the general worsening of bus network speeds and a decline in the night time economy are now combining to provide challenging circumstances. TfL are clearly trying to respond, in some fashion, to those circumstances. I simply don't see expansion of night services being on the agenda for several years. I suspect things will get much worse with some routes going entirely and some of the weekend routes disappearing. Gap filling ain't gonna happen. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 5, 2017 22:46:12 GMT
You almost could dig out an old night bus guide and look to do that again. Routes that start in the west end the radiate out to the outskirts diverting to serve as many places. The N44 diverted through Carshalton and Wallington would mean there would never have been a need for the N213 beyond Sutton and now the 24h 154. Or like the N77 to Torworth taking away the 281 and restoring the N22 to Kingston.
In many most towns had atleast 1 night route and even like the old N109 Croydon was linked with Brixton, Streatham, Thornton Heath, New Addington, Purley and Coulsdon. Now there is the 64, N68, N109 to achieve that and Croydon now has 6 Night services at Weekends has only added night services to Mitcham,Tooting, Sutton, West Wickham and Bromley. 5 more night routes with only 5 more major settlements linked due to the overlapping of the 64, 250, N68 and N109.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 5, 2017 23:52:02 GMT
You almost could dig out an old night bus guide and look to do that again. Routes that start in the west end the radiate out to the outskirts diverting to serve as many places. The N44 diverted through Carshalton and Wallington would mean there would never have been a need for the N213 beyond Sutton and now the 24h 154. Or like the N77 to Torworth taking away the 281 and restoring the N22 to Kingston. In many most towns had atleast 1 night route and even like the old N109 Croydon was linked with Brixton, Streatham, Thornton Heath, New Addington, Purley and Coulsdon. Now there is the 64, N68, N109 to achieve that and Croydon now has 6 Night services at Weekends has only added night services to Mitcham,Tooting, Sutton, West Wickham and Bromley. 5 more night routes with only 5 more major settlements linked due to the overlapping of the 64, 250, N68 and N109. If you want to finish the Night Bus network off for good then you would revert to the routes in that old guide. Services were often hourly then, half hourly if you were very lucky. I should know - I did a night tour on the night buses in the mid 80s. It took a lot of planning and some standing around in silly places like Friern Barnet praying the bus hadn't gone. I also occasionally used the single deck operated N96. Yep single deckers on much lower frequencies than offered by the N38 / N55 (nearest equivalents). You have a multiplicity of routes these days because demand rose substantially, there was more night time activity and it was spread out towards centres like Croydon as well as inner areas like Brixton. Ironically the night tube probably ensures Brixton won't be too badly off if there are cuts because it is such a big interchange point and there are strong flows in multiple directions. Trying to turn it all back to long routes that cover everywhere is not likely to work and will bring us back to the days of unreliability. Who wants a bus from central London to New Addington if it regularly gets curtailed in Croydon and you have no service? Long routes are also unlikely to be schedule efficient meaning more buses and drivers needed to try to offer a reliable service. There are balances to be struck. I know people don't like to hear this but there are always trade offs. There is little point in having a spindly low frequency network these days. The minimum acceptable service level is clearly half hourly. Go below and you might as well not bother. When your competitor is Uber then low frequency and a complicated, slow, hard to understand network is the wrong answer. This is why I think TfL will have to face facts and accept that if demand levels are pitiful and / or declining then it's time to say "goodbye" to routes rather than try to reduce them again. That will cause problems for the Mayor and his "Night Czar" who keep perpetuating a myth that all is well with the night time economy when it demonstrably is not. |
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Post by sid on Oct 6, 2017 5:33:15 GMT
The whole nightbus network seems to have been thrown together on an ad hoc basis with excessive levels of service in one area, inadequate levels in another and no night buses at all in others. Oh come on. The Night Bus network has existed for many many decades. Its purpose has changed and evolved over the years. To say it has been "thrown together" is just wrong. You (Philip Wallis) can't write two excellent and comprehensive books about something that's been "thrown together". Just because it doesn't do precisely what you might want to see does not equate to being "thrown together". There have been multiple studies, reviews and planned phased changes over the years. Even the two most recent nightly routes - 222 and 238 - seem to have had a very good start. Until about 2 years ago its demand trajectory was strongly ahead of the rest of the bus network. Clearly we are now in different circumstances - just as the network has been before. As has been much debated Uber and their ilf, the Night Tube, the general worsening of bus network speeds and a decline in the night time economy are now combining to provide challenging circumstances. TfL are clearly trying to respond, in some fashion, to those circumstances. I simply don't see expansion of night services being on the agenda for several years. I suspect things will get much worse with some routes going entirely and some of the weekend routes disappearing. Gap filling ain't gonna happen. There are just so many inconsistencies, Croydon for example has three routes to Thornton Heath pond but nothing going west apart from the recently introduced weekend 154 service which should be 7 days a week and nothing to South Norwood. There are 4bph between Lewisham and Eltham which is way above demand midweek and a great gap around Belvedere. There are numerous other examples, it hardly smacks of a cohesive network. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 6, 2017 10:47:28 GMT
That was what I was tying to get out. Not reducing freqs back to 90s levels but seeing if 1 route can provide more links then ending up with lots of shorter standardised routes with inevitable overlaps.
In Kingston the N9(N22) and N77 linked Kingston with New Malden, Wimbledon, Raynes Park, Surbiton, Torworth, Teddington, Twickenham, Richmond and Putney. With the addition of a N213 from Chessington to Sutton a few more links would be created then a (N)111 Hounslow, Hampton and Heathrow would be added.
Instead we now have 2 routes (one every 10 mins alone) to New Malden and Raynes Park and Wimbledon, 3 routes through Teddington, 2 routes to Hounslow and Heathrow which bar maybe early Sunday morning is quite excessive.
All links from Kingston could be still served week nights with a 57, N9,N22, N111 and N213 with just losses to Ham and Hampton Hill rather then needing the 57, 65, 85, 111, 213, 281, 285 N87. Standardisation has brought unnecessarily a slight over bussing week nights.
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Post by vjaska on Oct 6, 2017 11:21:06 GMT
Oh come on. The Night Bus network has existed for many many decades. Its purpose has changed and evolved over the years. To say it has been "thrown together" is just wrong. You (Philip Wallis) can't write two excellent and comprehensive books about something that's been "thrown together". Just because it doesn't do precisely what you might want to see does not equate to being "thrown together". There have been multiple studies, reviews and planned phased changes over the years. Even the two most recent nightly routes - 222 and 238 - seem to have had a very good start. Until about 2 years ago its demand trajectory was strongly ahead of the rest of the bus network. Clearly we are now in different circumstances - just as the network has been before. As has been much debated Uber and their ilf, the Night Tube, the general worsening of bus network speeds and a decline in the night time economy are now combining to provide challenging circumstances. TfL are clearly trying to respond, in some fashion, to those circumstances. I simply don't see expansion of night services being on the agenda for several years. I suspect things will get much worse with some routes going entirely and some of the weekend routes disappearing. Gap filling ain't gonna happen. There are just so many inconsistencies, Croydon for example has three routes to Thornton Heath pond but nothing going west apart from the recently introduced weekend 154 service which should be 7 days a week and nothing to South Norwood. There are 4bph between Lewisham and Eltham which is way above demand midweek and a great gap around Belvedere. There are numerous other examples, it hardly smacks of a cohesive network. I think your over exaggerating a bit - no one said the night bus network is perfect but at the same time, it doesn't require wholesale changes you've mentioned before - there are certainly gaps to be filled but that doesn't mean the existing network isn't cohesive. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 12:10:30 GMT
People knew their nearest night routes two - three decades ago. There was a feeling the West End was the place to go drinking. Now it may not be. Hence the hot dog sellers are no longer visible outside Canada House in the small hours.
The Kingston night routes referred to above are actually well used, however I would say the N87 could go back to every other bus finishing at Wimbledon.
The 213 is the quietest route there.
The Heathrow routes have healthy loadings which should justify their presence.
Richmond - Chiswick / Stamford Brook area is an obvious untapped link - I think the 391 running at night may be more used than the current 33.
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Post by redexpress on Oct 6, 2017 12:29:35 GMT
People knew their nearest night routes two - three decades ago. There was a feeling the West End was the place to go drinking. Now it may not be. Hence the hot dog sellers are no longer visible outside Canada House in the small hours. The Kingston night routes referred to above are actually well used, however I would say the N87 could go back to every other bus finishing at Wimbledon. The 213 is the quietest route there. The Heathrow routes have healthy loadings which should justify their presence. Richmond - Chiswick / Stamford Brook area is an obvious untapped link - I think the 391 running at night may be more used than the current 33. Not sure if the 391 would justify a night service over its whole length. An N27 extended to Richmond would be a cheaper way of providing that link. I think the main reason for the 33's night service is to provide a service to East Sheen. If that's underutilised, I would have suggested replacing it with an N37 running between Peckham and Richmond, with the N22 diverted to follow the 33 between Twickenham and Fulwell. However the 33 does provide a link with the night tube at Hammersmith, which the N37 wouldn't do (well it does meet the night tube further east, but that's not much use for the western section). In general I agree that people are less likely to go out in the West End these days. There's a hell of a lot more nightlife in Zones 2-3 than there was 10-15 years ago, so a lot more scope for people to go out locally. |
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Post by 6HP502C on Oct 6, 2017 12:43:43 GMT
People knew their nearest night routes two - three decades ago. There was a feeling the West End was the place to go drinking. Now it may not be. Hence the hot dog sellers are no longer visible outside Canada House in the small hours. I think that's more to do with the police/Enviromental Health shutting them down. In my night bus riding days I would see the police move them on - only for them to return a few minutes later once the police busied themselves with something else. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 6, 2017 13:42:52 GMT
People knew their nearest night routes two - three decades ago. There was a feeling the West End was the place to go drinking. Now it may not be. Hence the hot dog sellers are no longer visible outside Canada House in the small hours. The Kingston night routes referred to above are actually well used, however I would say the N87 could go back to every other bus finishing at Wimbledon. The 213 is the quietest route there. The Heathrow routes have healthy loadings which should justify their presence. Richmond - Chiswick / Stamford Brook area is an obvious untapped link - I think the 391 running at night may be more used than the current 33. Not sure if the 391 would justify a night service over its whole length. An N27 extended to Richmond would be a cheaper way of providing that link. I think the main reason for the 33's night service is to provide a service to East Sheen. If that's underutilised, I would have suggested replacing it with an N37 running between Peckham and Richmond, with the N22 diverted to follow the 33 between Twickenham and Fulwell. However the 33 does provide a link with the night tube at Hammersmith, which the N37 wouldn't do (well it does meet the night tube further east, but that's not much use for the western section). In general I agree that people are less likely to go out in the West End these days. There's a hell of a lot more nightlife in Zones 2-3 than there was 10-15 years ago, so a lot more scope for people to go out locally. My only concern with a N37 is the current 37 at night isn’t particularly reliable - pretty much from around the end of rush hour in the evening, it can be erratic and not uncommon for gaps to occur. I’d like to see some reliability measures taken especially as it gets really good loadings due to the abundance of nightlife at Clapham Junction, Clapham Common & Brixton. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2017 15:38:14 GMT
People knew their nearest night routes two - three decades ago. There was a feeling the West End was the place to go drinking. Now it may not be. Hence the hot dog sellers are no longer visible outside Canada House in the small hours. I think that's more to do with the police/Enviromental Health shutting them down. In my night bus riding days I would see the police move them on - only for them to return a few minutes later once the police busied themselves with something else. Yes quite. The smelll was always strangely tempting, despite the half cooked sausages were stored in the metal chamber underneath the hot griddle for hours before being cooked through. Maybe it was the onions ! I never did South London routes mainly because I was too frightened back then. I stuck with West and North. One of particular favourites was to go back and forth between T Square and Victoria as you never knew whether you’d be on a Metrobus or Titan or Fleetline, given the multiple routes shuttling between the two on relief runs. Back to more modern times, it will be interesting to see how recorded passenger levels hold up ( or not ) on these revised frequencies. I have a sneaking feeling that on the N9 for example, it’s probably now just a very busy 20 min route. I’ll be checking it out later to see. |
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