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Post by Unorm on Sept 19, 2014 20:42:38 GMT
I've been planning this, it'd be useful one day in life. The blue font indicates a 'why-not?' further extension, it may benefit. It may parallel some parts of routes, but would be useful, as a SD route at the least. Route 433; Crystal Palace Parade / West Norwood Rosendale / Herne Hill - London Bridge* / Stratford City, via: Gipsy Hill, South Croxted Road, Park Hall Road, Rosendale Road, Turney Road (direct via Rosendale Road on return), Croxted Road, Norwood Road, Herne Hill, Denmark Hill, Camberwell Road, Walworth Road, Elephant & Castle, Newington Causeway, Borough High Street, London Bridge, Eastcheap, East Smithfield, The Highway, Butcher Row, East India Dock Road, Blackwall Tunnel Northern Approach, Stratford High Street, Great Eastern Road?, Leyton Road, Montifichet (Avenue?), Stratford City Bus Station. The length of the full may be crazy, but the length (in full of course) rivals the length of 111 and 246's. Herne Hill to Stratford City should approximately be 9-10 miles. Crystal Palace to London Bridge should be around 7-8 miles too. Frequency; M-F 10 minutes, Saturday 30 minutes, Sunday no service What's ya thoughts about this? This could do with some minor relieveing with 68/468, especially in the peaks. And could help off the loadings with the City routes from E&C entering London Bridge (also in the peaks too). And from London Bridge to Stratford City, would create a 'faster, but more traffic chance' link to Stratford. Was thinking for this to be a DD route, but after Herne Hill would be a bit wrecked for a DD chance. At West Norwood Rosendale, it would use that abandoned bus stand. Crystal Palace Parade however, would be either the bus station on either side (don't think there is much space) or a circle around Crystal Palace via Gipsy Hill, then via 3 back down, and so on via Sth Croxted Road. Herne Hill would be the 201 stand. London Bridge would be a hard one, it'd be the 43's stand I guess haha. Stratford City shouldn't be out of space yet. As much as Stratford to Crystal Palace is an interesting link, it would be way too long in practice hitting many traffic hotspots along the way. Crystal Palace to London Bridge could work though but that would mean forfitting part of Rosendale Road as Park Hall Road can't use buses that have more than 8 passengers aboard - out of service buses can use the road as I've seen N run 249's, 417's & 432's up to Anerley & Palace via that route in the past. Deckers should manage Rosendale Road with no issues as both bridges are high enough to take deckers and length won't be an issue as coaches used to stand up on Rosendale Road by the steel railway bridge.. I know the many traffic hotspots it serves, that's why I made sections of Crystal Palace to London Bridge or Stratford City, or even forgetting the whole south bit and E&C to Stratford. Park Hall Road - I know it does restrict buses but to only 8 passengers?! That's pathetic! 3 and 322 did diversions on there (322 did that many times, 322 missed the entire H&R section  3 however, serving Rosendale Road for the first time I've seen  Thanks to Croxted Road works  ). Therefor a backup plan was always in mind <- have the 433 in two divisions. Crystal Palace to London Bridge which should be 8-10 miles and London Bridge to Stratford City should be 5-7ish. But division two would have to link with 25 on the London Bridge, unless passengers know what they're doing and go down and take a 100 then 433 (I'd call the northern leg 443). Thanks for your feedback btw. |
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Post by Unorm on Sept 19, 2014 20:49:49 GMT
I've been planning this, it'd be useful one day in life. The blue font indicates a 'why-not?' further extension, it may benefit. It may parallel some parts of routes, but would be useful, as a SD route at the least. Route 433; Crystal Palace Parade / West Norwood Rosendale / Herne Hill - London Bridge* / Stratford City, via: Gipsy Hill, South Croxted Road, Park Hall Road, Rosendale Road, Turney Road (direct via Rosendale Road on return), Croxted Road, Norwood Road, Herne Hill, Denmark Hill, Camberwell Road, Walworth Road, Elephant & Castle, Newington Causeway, Borough High Street, London Bridge, Eastcheap, East Smithfield, The Highway, Butcher Row, East India Dock Road, Blackwall Tunnel Northern Approach, Stratford High Street, Great Eastern Road?, Leyton Road, Montifichet (Avenue?), Stratford City Bus Station. The length of the full may be crazy, but the length (in full of course) rivals the length of 111 and 246's. Herne Hill to Stratford City should approximately be 9-10 miles. Crystal Palace to London Bridge should be around 7-8 miles too. Frequency; M-F 10 minutes, Saturday 30 minutes, Sunday no service What's ya thoughts about this? This could do with some minor relieveing with 68/468, especially in the peaks. And could help off the loadings with the City routes from E&C entering London Bridge (also in the peaks too). And from London Bridge to Stratford City, would create a 'faster, but more traffic chance' link to Stratford. Was thinking for this to be a DD route, but after Herne Hill would be a bit wrecked for a DD chance. At West Norwood Rosendale, it would use that abandoned bus stand. Crystal Palace Parade however, would be either the bus station on either side (don't think there is much space) or a circle around Crystal Palace via Gipsy Hill, then via 3 back down, and so on via Sth Croxted Road. Herne Hill would be the 201 stand. London Bridge would be a hard one, it'd be the 43's stand I guess haha. Stratford City shouldn't be out of space yet. I think it is far too long and far too much at risk of encountering serious traffic problems. Imagine if the Blackwall Tunnel had problems? - a daily occurrence. I think it would be very hard to schedule efficiently if it ran Stratford City - Norwood / Crystal Palace. I am not convinced by the very wide differential in frequencies. You seem to be forgetting that weekends are very busy. No Sunday service into Stratford City? - err hello?! If it had to run with single deckers it would be horrendously overloaded if trying to run through the City / Walworth Road. I agree with previous comments that this is possibly two or three routes. I'd also be tempted to run the route via Southwark Bridge to give a new link from the Walworth area into Monument / Tower Hill part of the City. I'd also be tempted to run via Canary Wharf and Leamouth. Crystal Palace - Camberwell Green single decks 15 peaks and interpeak / 20 evenings and Sundays Herne Hill - Canary Wharf / Canning Town double decks - this would give the eastwards link from Canary Wharf to Canning Town that's missing. It'd also give a South London - Canary Wharf bus lost when the 40 was chopped. 12 peaks and interpeak / 15 Sats / 20 evenings and Sundays Stratford City - Elephant and Castle double decks. This could go via London Bridge or could go via Tower Bridge and Tooely St to part relieve the RV1 which is overloaded because of the crowds from Fenchurch St and London Bridge. 15 peaks and interpeak / 20 evenings and Sundays Now OK my split service is much more resource intensive but is likely to be more reliable and avoids running single deckers where, in time, double deckers would be required. There are also plenty of garages and operators that could run any of the services with reasonable efficiency. Unfortunately all the routes are at risk of encountering horrible peak traffic at some point. I only suggested SDs because I doubted my route would be useful with DDs. I wouldn't go for Tower Bridge if I were you, I originally planned via Tower Bridge than London Bridge, but using the Bridge is slow, not that it would be in off peak that much, and also the bridge could open at a bad time, IMO. Also, that Herne Hill to Canary Wharf/Canning Town is a good idea. And my route plan was long as 15 miles, so I didn't intend for it to be one straight route. I intended it to be a division of two so it wouldn't be as hard to operate if it was to be in reality. Oh and I thought no Sunday service to Stratford City because you got the key routes intended for not too bad. If it was to have a Sunday service, it'd be 30 minutes  |
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Post by vjaska on Sept 19, 2014 22:25:44 GMT
I've been planning this, it'd be useful one day in life. The blue font indicates a 'why-not?' further extension, it may benefit. It may parallel some parts of routes, but would be useful, as a SD route at the least. Route 433; Crystal Palace Parade / West Norwood Rosendale / Herne Hill - London Bridge* / Stratford City, via: Gipsy Hill, South Croxted Road, Park Hall Road, Rosendale Road, Turney Road (direct via Rosendale Road on return), Croxted Road, Norwood Road, Herne Hill, Denmark Hill, Camberwell Road, Walworth Road, Elephant & Castle, Newington Causeway, Borough High Street, London Bridge, Eastcheap, East Smithfield, The Highway, Butcher Row, East India Dock Road, Blackwall Tunnel Northern Approach, Stratford High Street, Great Eastern Road?, Leyton Road, Montifichet (Avenue?), Stratford City Bus Station. The length of the full may be crazy, but the length (in full of course) rivals the length of 111 and 246's. Herne Hill to Stratford City should approximately be 9-10 miles. Crystal Palace to London Bridge should be around 7-8 miles too. Frequency; M-F 10 minutes, Saturday 30 minutes, Sunday no service What's ya thoughts about this? This could do with some minor relieveing with 68/468, especially in the peaks. And could help off the loadings with the City routes from E&C entering London Bridge (also in the peaks too). And from London Bridge to Stratford City, would create a 'faster, but more traffic chance' link to Stratford. Was thinking for this to be a DD route, but after Herne Hill would be a bit wrecked for a DD chance. At West Norwood Rosendale, it would use that abandoned bus stand. Crystal Palace Parade however, would be either the bus station on either side (don't think there is much space) or a circle around Crystal Palace via Gipsy Hill, then via 3 back down, and so on via Sth Croxted Road. Herne Hill would be the 201 stand. London Bridge would be a hard one, it'd be the 43's stand I guess haha. Stratford City shouldn't be out of space yet. I think it is far too long and far too much at risk of encountering serious traffic problems. Imagine if the Blackwall Tunnel had problems? - a daily occurrence. I think it would be very hard to schedule efficiently if it ran Stratford City - Norwood / Crystal Palace. I am not convinced by the very wide differential in frequencies. You seem to be forgetting that weekends are very busy. No Sunday service into Stratford City? - err hello?! If it had to run with single deckers it would be horrendously overloaded if trying to run through the City / Walworth Road. I agree with previous comments that this is possibly two or three routes. I'd also be tempted to run the route via Southwark Bridge to give a new link from the Walworth area into Monument / Tower Hill part of the City. I'd also be tempted to run via Canary Wharf and Leamouth. Crystal Palace - Camberwell Green single decks 15 peaks and interpeak / 20 evenings and Sundays Herne Hill - Canary Wharf / Canning Town double decks - this would give the eastwards link from Canary Wharf to Canning Town that's missing. It'd also give a South London - Canary Wharf bus lost when the 40 was chopped. 12 peaks and interpeak / 15 Sats / 20 evenings and Sundays Stratford City - Elephant and Castle double decks. This could go via London Bridge or could go via Tower Bridge and Tooely St to part relieve the RV1 which is overloaded because of the crowds from Fenchurch St and London Bridge. 15 peaks and interpeak / 20 evenings and Sundays Now OK my split service is much more resource intensive but is likely to be more reliable and avoids running single deckers where, in time, double deckers would be required. There are also plenty of garages and operators that could run any of the services with reasonable efficiency. Unfortunately all the routes are at risk of encountering horrible peak traffic at some point. I like the Herne Hill to Canning Town & Elephant to Stratford routes as they open up many new links and give another option for people who don't use the Underground. It could in effect slightly ease passenger levels on Brixton bound routes from Herne Hill. |
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Post by snoggle on Sept 19, 2014 22:50:38 GMT
I agree with previous comments that this is possibly two or three routes. I'd also be tempted to run the route via Southwark Bridge to give a new link from the Walworth area into Monument / Tower Hill part of the City. I'd also be tempted to run via Canary Wharf and Leamouth. Crystal Palace - Camberwell Green single decks 15 peaks and interpeak / 20 evenings and Sundays Herne Hill - Canary Wharf / Canning Town double decks - this would give the eastwards link from Canary Wharf to Canning Town that's missing. It'd also give a South London - Canary Wharf bus lost when the 40 was chopped. 12 peaks and interpeak / 15 Sats / 20 evenings and Sundays Stratford City - Elephant and Castle double decks. This could go via London Bridge or could go via Tower Bridge and Tooely St to part relieve the RV1 which is overloaded because of the crowds from Fenchurch St and London Bridge. 15 peaks and interpeak / 20 evenings and Sundays Now OK my split service is much more resource intensive but is likely to be more reliable and avoids running single deckers where, in time, double deckers would be required. There are also plenty of garages and operators that could run any of the services with reasonable efficiency. Unfortunately all the routes are at risk of encountering horrible peak traffic at some point. I like the Herne Hill to Canning Town & Elephant to Stratford routes as they open up many new links and give another option for people who don't use the Underground. It could in effect slightly ease passenger levels on Brixton bound routes from Herne Hill. We aim to please.  Obviously unorm came up with the original concept so credit where it's due. I do think new routes like these that deliberately create new links and get people to several big employment areas are part of what TfL need to be adding to the network when they get some cash. I am reluctant about running any service in inner London areas at 30 min headways during the day on any day of the week. It doesn't take people terribly long to work out when they've got a new bus service and to start using it and people in inner London are used to turn up and go buses. |
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Post by rmz19 on Sept 20, 2014 2:22:48 GMT
I like that proposal, some parts of the route would be useful, but I think the whole route would be far too long length and timewise, even more so than the 111 which is at 15 miles. Also keeping in mind those routes are situated further away from Central London than your proposed 433 so congestion would be relatively common with this route. Perhaps it would be best for your 433 route to be Elephant Castle - Stratford City, this would be long enough but capable I think, and since it would be a trunk route I would say increase the M-F frequency to 6-8 mins Then maybe a 443 down the river for the southern plan of 433? And maybe a frequency of 15 mins M-F and 20 on Sats with no Sunday service. And MPD operation lol. Thanks for your thoughts though No Sunday service?!.....such a suggestion should not even be remotely considered for an Inner London bus route I would say a Sunday frequency of 12-15 mins  |
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Post by sid on Sept 20, 2014 10:28:46 GMT
I don't think it'd be solved with actually 255 going around the loop. Think of it, three routes to Streatham (without directly serving A23 for at least along between the Church and Hill Stn section. And three to Norwood area (West Norwood / Crown Point). What would solve the problem is an extension of route 133, helping off 249 and making passengers use 133 rather than 315. ( Article for those interested) A new route would be better but would cost more money, but by making 133's dead run a service would be good, not that it would happen. A route directly serving the A23 for at least until Streatham Hill Station to go to West Norwood (or Crown Point where people can change for a 196/468 if they can bother to, well anyway 249 and 417 are well used and many passengers get off there from what I remember). So a route serving A23 for most would solve this problem. IMO the 255 wouldn't solve that much of a problem and is a bit infrequent. Why do all buses to Streatham have to serve that section of the High Road? And vjaska's suggestion would still see the 255 running between St Leonard's church and Streatham Hill station, it would only be the short section between Streatham Common North and St Leonard's it would miss, literally two stops northbound and three stops southbound, and with alternatives just around the corner for all but the one outside and opposite Tesco. The 249 does not need any help between the High Road and Crown Point. Streatham Common North is lightly populated with the common on one side then just one looping residential street off it when it becomes Crown Lane. A 133 extension is not needed as it would make the route unreliable; there is very little demand for a route from Streatham Common North (or elsewhere in Streatham) for Knight's Hill; a terminus at the Norwood bus depot would see it stop too short of the centre of West Norwood; and it would be too much of a loop for anyone from West Norwood to use it. For Streatham it would be just as quick to wait for the infrequent 315, and for no one will use it for Brixton over going directly via Tulse Hill. Even in the Streatham Guardian article no one is actually asking for a 133 extension, they just want to be able to catch the light running buses as they are already going to and from the High Road. And what happens if Arriva loses the 133 contract? A lot of buses have dead running, you cannot keep extending routes to the next depot along whenever another operator takes over. There were no calls for a 133 extension to Norwood when it was run by London General. As I said on another thread recently, the main use of the 315 is for people to get to their local town centre rather than between them. I have been on many full buses from Balham that have significantly emptied out by St Leonard's, but then pick up a lot of people at the top of Gleneldon Road once it crosses the High Road. The flows in this part of south London are mostly radial along the main A-road corridors, there is no big demand for people travelling between Streatham and West Norwood. When people in West Norwood want to go to the cinema or larger shops their focus is mainly towards Brixton, not Streatham. And Streatham is a much bigger place so apart from B&Q there are little leisure or shopping attractions in West Norwood where there is no local equivalent or better. Including a larger Homebase by Streatham Common station. So there is almost no demand from the Streatham Common North area south of Leigham Court Road for West Norwood. The 255 suggestion would be far more useful as it would serve Valley Road and the streets leading off it with a High Road connection, a 133 extension would not solve the "Valley Road crisis" as those in the middle will still be just as far from a bus route. And for them needing to walk to Streatham Common North would not be worth the effort, time, and cost when it would be just as quick and free to walk to the High Road directly. The only downside is that ideally it is the area by Sunnyhill primary school and the Valley Road surgery at the centre of that area, and where the old dairy has been replaced by new housing development, which could really do with a proper High Road connection and not just the 315. If possible it would be better if a rerouted 255 could use Sunnyhill Road instead of Gleneldon and Stanthorpe Road although I think it would be too narrow with parked cars. I can see why there would be requests to run the 133 in service to/from Norwood Garage but as you say if it subsequently goes to another operator, or maybe moves to BN, then the service would just not be viable. I've often thought a new route from West Norwood/Tulse Hill (maybe the previously mentioned Peabody Estate?) up Knights Hill then Streatham Common and then heading towards Mitcham and St Georges Hospital although it would probably duplicate a lot of the 118 route unless it went via Norbury but then it would obviously duplicate the 255 |
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Post by Unorm on Sept 20, 2014 10:39:04 GMT
Seems my 433 plan is alright I originally planned it to be M-F 6-9 minutes, Sat 10-12 and Sunday 20. Running from Stratford to Crystal Palace, then tweaked it a bit and became Crystal Palace to Stratford City, but via London Bridge, first thought Tower Bridge, but has enough traffic and will break the route apart, Southwark Bridge is lonely, but the only way for it to get through it without many traffic hotspots is for it to go via 344. And since this plan was full as 15 miles. I thought as to break it into two of some sort. My first was CP - E&C, this section should be similar to 415 reliability-wise. And rivalling mileage, both 5 miles long. Then again, the lost 40 section (Herne Hill to Q and Aldgate to Blackwall), so thought of it as Herne Hill to Stratford City with that frequency (on the first paragraph) and double for the southern bit. All these plans and this were to have limited stop service too, (I thought I said it in my first post, nevermind). Herne Hill to - Q non-stop. Q to E&C - non-stop. E&C to London Bridge - Only stops at Stations London Bridge to Tower of London - non-stop Tower of London to Limehouse - stops at St Katherine Docks and Tobacco Dock only along the The Highway section Limehouse to Stratford City - Stops at London Uni of Cumbria in London and Poplar All Saints only (along the A13 section) and non-stop to Bromley-by-Bow then another non-stop, but to Stratford Bus Station. The next stop would be Stratford City Bus Station then. At one point I thought of the route to go to Canning Town then to Stratford, I didn't know how it could without making it longer other than to make it go via Upton Park or double run then go via A102. |
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Post by COBO on Sept 20, 2014 11:09:55 GMT
Withdraw the 7 between Oxford Circus and Russell Square and diverted to Trafalgar Square via the 23.
withdraw the 98 between Holborn and Tottenham Court Road Station and diverted to Russell Square via Great Russell Street and Montague Street.
The purpose of this is so that the 7 acts as relief for the 23. The 98 will compensate for the lost link and provide new links.
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Post by thesquirrels on Sept 20, 2014 17:55:00 GMT
Withdraw the 7 between Oxford Circus and Russell Square and diverted to Trafalgar Square via the 23. withdraw the 98 between Holborn and Tottenham Court Road Station and diverted to Russell Square via Great Russell Street and Montague Street. The purpose of this is so that the 7 acts as relief for the 23. The 98 will compensate for the lost link and provide new links. How about extending the 7 further from Trafalgar Square down Northumberland Avenue, Embankment and Westminster Bridge to County Hall and Waterloo? Would give a shorter journey vs the 139 between the Oxford Street area and Waterloo (especially when the eastbound Strand jams up) and I think tourists would make use of the direct link to Westminster and County Hall. |
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Post by sid on Sept 20, 2014 19:05:46 GMT
Withdraw the 7 between Oxford Circus and Russell Square and diverted to Trafalgar Square via the 23. withdraw the 98 between Holborn and Tottenham Court Road Station and diverted to Russell Square via Great Russell Street and Montague Street. The purpose of this is so that the 7 acts as relief for the 23. The 98 will compensate for the lost link and provide new links. The link from Paddington to east of Oxford Circus would be lost and does the 23 need a relief? |
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Post by COBO on Sept 20, 2014 19:48:51 GMT
Withdraw the 7 between Oxford Circus and Russell Square and diverted to Trafalgar Square via the 23. withdraw the 98 between Holborn and Tottenham Court Road Station and diverted to Russell Square via Great Russell Street and Montague Street. The purpose of this is so that the 7 acts as relief for the 23. The 98 will compensate for the lost link and provide new links. The link from Paddington to east of Oxford Circus would be lost and does the 23 need a relief? Yes because the 23 gets busy between Paddington and Trafalgar Square. The alternative would be to extend the 159 back to Paddington Basin. Or a frequency increase. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 6:51:26 GMT
The alternative would be to extend the 159 back to Paddington Basin. Yes! The consultation was only supported by 25% of people and just one group, TravelWatch whose support was contingent on further evidence, so it would be a popular move. |
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Post by rmz19 on Sept 21, 2014 23:07:16 GMT
Withdraw the 7 between Oxford Circus and Russell Square and diverted to Trafalgar Square via the 23. withdraw the 98 between Holborn and Tottenham Court Road Station and diverted to Russell Square via Great Russell Street and Montague Street. The purpose of this is so that the 7 acts as relief for the 23. The 98 will compensate for the lost link and provide new links. The 7 would duplicate the 23 too much between Trafalgar Square and Westbourne Grove/Ladbroke Grove, making it quite pointless, I think it's fine the way it is. The 6 and 7 already provide relief for the 23, the 6 could be extended to St Pauls to provide extra relief. |
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Post by sid on Sept 21, 2014 23:29:31 GMT
The link from Paddington to east of Oxford Circus would be lost and does the 23 need a relief? Yes because the 23 gets busy between Paddington and Trafalgar Square. The alternative would be to extend the 159 back to Paddington Basin. Or a frequency increase. The 23 manages alright from what I've seen |
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Post by rmz19 on Sept 22, 2014 0:48:46 GMT
Yes because the 23 gets busy between Paddington and Trafalgar Square. The alternative would be to extend the 159 back to Paddington Basin. Or a frequency increase. The 23 manages alright from what I've seen The 23 infact gets regularly overcrowded, especially along the City/Fleet Street corridor in the peaks and the weekends by tourists. At least if the 6 is extended to St Pauls it would help out the 23 as well as the 15 between the City and the West End. |
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3 however, serving Rosendale Road for the first time I've seen 
Thanks to Croxted Road works 
).
