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Post by evergreenadam on Oct 28, 2023 9:20:55 GMT
Would it be any more reliable to swap termini with the 77? So a Waterloo-Wimbledon route and an Aldwych-Tooting route (both via Wandsworth Road)? Maybe but I can’t see why it would need to. If anything TfL should just cut the Aldwych to Trafalgar Square section to improve the 87 given how the Strand barely moves some days and that’s outside of rush hour. In fact I’m surprised TfL haven’t cut the 91 back to Aldwych and the 87 to Trafalgar Square to further reduce buses sat in traffic towards Trafalgar Square. There would still be plenty of links to either end and it’s not that far to walk. I agree, have always thought the cost of running the 91 from Aldwych to Trafalgar Square must far outweigh the level of benefit to the few passengers that don’t get off the bus as soon as it hits the traffic on the Strand. Providing the overlap between the 87 and 91 between Aldwych and Trafalgar Square must be one of the most expensive examples in Central London given how slow the traffic moves on the Strand and that passengers on both routes are thinning out as the routes are approaching their termini. I thought it would be a dead cert for rerouting to Waterloo when the Waterloo to Holborn corridor was being examined to remove ‘excess capacity’ but I guess there were other more low hanging fruit like the 521 and 168 to pick off first. I do think that there is a need for a Holborn to Trafalgar Square service in some form, but perhaps this would be better served by a short extension of the 87 from Aldwych to Holborn, which would open up a wider range of journey opportunities from the Holborn area to Parliament Square and the Tate Gallery. The 91 could be rerouted to Waterloo, reinstating the Waterloo to King’s Cross direct link. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Oct 28, 2023 9:34:28 GMT
Could consider extending the 436 over the 156 to Clapham Junction, then send the 156 somewhere else for some new links? Or might an 87/156 merger work (going via Wandsworth Road)? Would be a similar length to the 77 - and has been mentioned the 156 gets busy between Wandsworth and Wimbledon, so could do with an frequency increase to match the 87. Or reroute the 156 via Falcon/Grant Road and then take over the C3 route to Earls Court and extend the 436 from Battersea Park via the 156 to Clapham Junction. Thought about this, but the routeing would be a bit convoluted near Wandsworth, going to Clapham Junction then back to Wandsworth Bridge again. Another option might be to send the 156 over Battersea Bridge to Sloane Square, replacing part of the 319 - this would also relieve the busy 170 between Wandsworth and Chelsea. Then merge the C3 with the rest of the 319 to operate between Earls Court and Streatham Hill. |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 28, 2023 9:41:59 GMT
Maybe but I can’t see why it would need to. If anything TfL should just cut the Aldwych to Trafalgar Square section to improve the 87 given how the Strand barely moves some days and that’s outside of rush hour. In fact I’m surprised TfL haven’t cut the 91 back to Aldwych and the 87 to Trafalgar Square to further reduce buses sat in traffic towards Trafalgar Square. There would still be plenty of links to either end and it’s not that far to walk. I agree, have always thought the cost of running the 91 from Aldwych to Trafalgar Square must far outweigh the level of benefit to the few passengers that don’t get off the bus as soon as it hits the traffic on the Strand. I thought it would be a dead cert for rerouting to Waterloo when the Waterloo to Holborn corridor was being examined to remove ‘excess capacity’ but I guess there were other more low hanging fruit like the 521 and 168 to pick off first. I do think that there is a need for a Holborn to Trafalgar Square service in some form, but perhaps this would be better served by a short extension of the 87 from Aldwych to Holborn, which would open up a wider range of journey opportunities from the Holborn area to Parliament Square and the Tate Gallery. I agree about the 91, it's just like buses terminating at Oxford Circus from the east, most people get off and walk if the traffic is bad. Ideally I think the 87 and 91 should be merged into one route like the 1 and 168 were but Wandsworth to Crouch End would be too long a route. |
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Post by abellion on Oct 28, 2023 9:51:48 GMT
Or reroute the 156 via Falcon/Grant Road and then take over the C3 route to Earls Court and extend the 436 from Battersea Park via the 156 to Clapham Junction. Thought about this, but the routeing would be a bit convoluted near Wandsworth, going to Clapham Junction then back to Wandsworth Bridge again. Another option might be to send the 156 over Battersea Bridge to Sloane Square, replacing part of the 319 - this would also relieve the busy 170 between Wandsworth and Chelsea. Then merge the C3 with the rest of the 319 to operate between Earls Court and Streatham Hill. Best option would be to leave the 77,87,156,319,344,C3 alone because there’s nothing wrong with the current routes… cutting the 87 to Trafalgar wouldn’t be a bad idea though |
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Post by WH241 on Oct 28, 2023 10:48:47 GMT
I agree, have always thought the cost of running the 91 from Aldwych to Trafalgar Square must far outweigh the level of benefit to the few passengers that don’t get off the bus as soon as it hits the traffic on the Strand. I thought it would be a dead cert for rerouting to Waterloo when the Waterloo to Holborn corridor was being examined to remove ‘excess capacity’ but I guess there were other more low hanging fruit like the 521 and 168 to pick off first. I do think that there is a need for a Holborn to Trafalgar Square service in some form, but perhaps this would be better served by a short extension of the 87 from Aldwych to Holborn, which would open up a wider range of journey opportunities from the Holborn area to Parliament Square and the Tate Gallery. I agree about the 91, it's just like buses terminating at Oxford Circus from the east, most people get off and walk if the traffic is bad. Ideally I think the 87 and 91 should be merged into one route like the 1 and 168 were but Wandsworth to Crouch End would be too long a route. Not trying to be picky but recently you have been advocating the 15 returning to Oxford Circus but admit the issues the route would face at Oxford Circus. |
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Post by greenboy on Oct 28, 2023 10:51:55 GMT
I agree about the 91, it's just like buses terminating at Oxford Circus from the east, most people get off and walk if the traffic is bad. Ideally I think the 87 and 91 should be merged into one route like the 1 and 168 were but Wandsworth to Crouch End would be too long a route. Not trying to be picky but recently you have been advocating the 15 returning to Oxford Circus but admit the issues the route would face at Oxford Circus. The 15 would approach Oxford Circus from the south, ie Regent Street. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 28, 2023 11:30:25 GMT
Thought about this, but the routeing would be a bit convoluted near Wandsworth, going to Clapham Junction then back to Wandsworth Bridge again. Another option might be to send the 156 over Battersea Bridge to Sloane Square, replacing part of the 319 - this would also relieve the busy 170 between Wandsworth and Chelsea. Then merge the C3 with the rest of the 319 to operate between Earls Court and Streatham Hill. Best option would be to leave the 77,87,156,319,344,C3 alone because there’s nothing wrong with the current routes… cutting the 87 to Trafalgar wouldn’t be a bad idea though Completely agree |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 29, 2023 10:30:22 GMT
The reduction on the 430 is no surprise given that TfL previously wanted to get rid of the ridiculously generous levels of capacity currently provided on the overlap with the 74 between Putney High Street and South Kensington, by withdrawing the 74 entirely. This achieves some savings but at the expense of passengers in Roehampton on the section where the 430 runs alone. Would have been better to withdraw the 430 between Putney Bridge and South Kensington or divert it at Lillie Road to run to Hammersmith instead. The 436 has become a route of two halves since being rerouted to Battersea Park Station. The Oval to Battersea Park section could probably cope with 5bph at the moment. Extending the 436 a bit further on, say to Battersea Latchmere would make it more useful. From what I’ve seen along Nine Elms Lane it just picks up a few stragglers who could otherwise easily have been accommodated on the 156 or 344, except during the peaks when the with the flow journeys are a bit more lively. The problem with the 436's diversion in the first place is there isn't any obvious place to extend it without causing an issue elsewhere. The section between Vauxhall & Battersea Park is quiet because the 156 & 344 offer links that have been around for donkeys, are more established as a result and beyond the Power Station & Battersea Park which probably see more custom via the tube, there isn't anything there along that section but luxury flats which probably aren't fully occupied half the time. Battersea could work as the 44 used to shadow the 344 to Vauxhall before being diverted to Victoria and the 44 would load well to and from Vauxhall even with the 156 on top but I'm not sure another route on top of the 44 & 344 west of Battersea Park would be needed. I'd prefer to see a Clapham Junction extension because of the new links east of Vauxhall it would bring but the issue with that is you will end up duplicating either the 156 or 344 in both instances The section to Vauxhall and even London Bridge used to be part of route 44 anyway. Routes 156 & 344 may have been around for donkeys, but there is still the risk that of they withdraw route 436 from the area, people might get the hump.  Actually, I don't completely feel like laughing about it. I did in a way get the hump yesterday when 4 or 5 successive 436s were not Ultracaps. I gave up and shortened my remaining itinerary, but did at least still cover my remaining 3 priority routes. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 29, 2023 10:36:03 GMT
One to take to the ideas thread but I wonder if a partial merger of the rerouted 211 and inner 436 might work, say Fulham Broadway to Peckham via Battersea Power Station, with the 11 continuing to Hammersmith and other services tweaked to pick up the slack beyond Peckham. Yes, extend route 11 to Hammersmith, but route 211 (starting from Fulham Broadway) to New Cross so it could link with other buses such as routes 225 & 321 as well as route 136 for the section to Lewisham. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 29, 2023 10:39:23 GMT
Both routes can be kicked out easily, just send the H22 back to Richmond, (either sharing a stand with the H37 or using the Queen's Road stand), along with a small frequency increase to the 267, and extend the 481 to Brentford County Court or Osterley Tesco as you have said. The H22 replaced the 110 over the Twickenham - WMH section and only after the initial consultation drew howls of protest about the loss of a direct link between Twickenham and the hospital itself. The 267 stops outside but access to the hospital requires crossing a busy road and a short but inconvenient walk up the approach road which has no continuous footpath and multiple access ways to negotiate. The H22 therefore meets the wishes of those who used to board the 110. Not large numbers but rather more than use the 481. I have argued before as to whether there is any value in continuing the 481 given its very low patronage. The responses I had here mentioned that it was considered for a school-only 600-series route but that it is somehow cheaper to run as an all-day public route. I don't entirely believe that if only because much more fuel is consumed than would be the case if it were confined to a couple of school runs. There is very little traffic indeed on the 481 which cannot be absorbed nor covered by other routes aside from the school trips. With RATP pulling out of their current contract for route 481, TfL could retender it as a schoolday only route, with a new 600s number. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 29, 2023 10:44:01 GMT
According to this month's LOTS publication the 211 will be rerouted to Battersea Power Station from Saturday November 18th, the 77 thus on the same day rerouted via Station Approach for Waterloo Station. When I saw that, I felt tempted to postpone Battersea Power Station to next year (but with the spare time head a bit further east to ride routes 1 & 91 instead). However, the significance of changing from one 20s railway to another (by travelling Paddington - Tottenham Court Road - Battersea Power Station) became too great.  |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 29, 2023 10:47:17 GMT
Some of the loads I've seen on the 9 after the 23 was pulled away suggest that passengers still very much use the bus from Central out to Hammersmith. While it would largely parallel the tube, I wonder if a link from Central London to Hammersmith via South Kensington might work, using the A4 to serve the area around Barons Court too? I think this could be done by rerouting route C1 via Hammersmith. It seems a bit pointless having it basically duplicate route 49 to White City. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 29, 2023 10:51:05 GMT
The Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction branch of the Overground is also frequently closed for engineering works, so duplicating the 156 and 344 seems to be a much more noticeable issue as you say. Could consider extending the 436 over the 156 to Clapham Junction, then send the 156 somewhere else for some new links? Or might an 87/156 merger work (going via Wandsworth Road)? Would be a similar length to the 77 - and has been mentioned the 156 gets busy between Wandsworth and Wimbledon, so could do with an frequency increase to match the 87. The 87 & 156 were effectively a through route (still then numbered 77a) until 1983 anyway. |
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Oct 29, 2023 10:53:38 GMT
The 156 is extremely susceptible to traffic and is often unreliable during school hours, it should not be extended especially over such a busy stretch. The 87 is heavily used already and the 156 has established demand on its routing via Battersea Park, I think both are worth more than what the 436 going to Clapham Junction would bring. The 156 is relatively quiet compared to other routes between Vauxhall and Clapham Junction. Admittedly it is the least direct, so probably rarely used by passengers between those points. That said, it does provide some useful round the corner links. I would have preferred to use route 156 to 344 yesterday, but route 344 provided a more suitable link with my then remaining routes without inevitable backtracking or additional rides needed. |
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Post by londonbuses on Oct 29, 2023 10:59:42 GMT
The H22 replaced the 110 over the Twickenham - WMH section and only after the initial consultation drew howls of protest about the loss of a direct link between Twickenham and the hospital itself. The 267 stops outside but access to the hospital requires crossing a busy road and a short but inconvenient walk up the approach road which has no continuous footpath and multiple access ways to negotiate. The H22 therefore meets the wishes of those who used to board the 110. Not large numbers but rather more than use the 481. I have argued before as to whether there is any value in continuing the 481 given its very low patronage. The responses I had here mentioned that it was considered for a school-only 600-series route but that it is somehow cheaper to run as an all-day public route. I don't entirely believe that if only because much more fuel is consumed than would be the case if it were confined to a couple of school runs. There is very little traffic indeed on the 481 which cannot be absorbed nor covered by other routes aside from the school trips. With RATP pulling out of their current contract for route 481, TfL could retender it as a schoolday only route, with a new 600s number. I highly doubt TfL would get rid of the 481, it serves many residental areas that would otherwise have no bus service (Sandy Lane, Hospital Bridge Road and Nelson Road). Maybe it will be converted back to single decker (with the school journeys operated by Abellio remaining DD) but I don't think the route will be scrapped. |
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