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Post by PGAT on Jun 12, 2024 8:27:32 GMT
I would say that is a good idea, as the report suggests people don’t mind a bit longer journey as long as they’re not troubled by changing, hence a 1 seat ride. Going off piste I also thought the extention of the Gatwick Express to Brighton was a great idea, but would also suggest the stock used are more commuter train than the former Inter City and should be treated as so. When the service resumes again to 4tph I certainly would advocate extending this service to Southampton/Portsmouth, I also would stop all 4 trains at Clapham Junction/East Croydon. By extending to Portsmouth/Southampton it avoids the delay at Horsham to split trains. I go to Chichester a lot and the part past Gatwick is so slow. As I say the train is more commuter service now. If you call at Clapham Junction and East Croydon its not really a “Gatwick Express” service and you can’t justify charging premiums for the same service Southern provided
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 12, 2024 10:02:22 GMT
"Gatwick Express" is still considered to be a premium brand and (aside from a few early and late trips) is a non-stop service. It is also the successor to the long-lasting non-stop, latterly one-stop, Victoria - Brighton service introduced in 1932 at electrification. As such it is popular with Brighton Line users who otherwise have to endure at best a semi-fast service on Thameslink seats aboard a class 700.
I don't know of any plans to "resume 4tph" on this service. Gatwick Airport generates huge amounts of traffic but the existing service can cope. It would however cope better if the two "GatEx" Brighton fasts were to stop alternately at either Clapham Junction or East Croydon easing the pressure on Southern services at those locations. It would also help if more trains on that corridor were 12-car not 8-car.
There is significant congestion of services on the Brighton Line. Southern gave up the pathways used for their Victoria - Brighton fast trains some years ago using them instead for enhanced service to east and west coast lines and with more stops introduced. That has eased the previous overloading on what used to be split trains (4-car to Hastings / 4-car to Littlehampton) which often left people behind at places like Worthing and Lewes through lack of capacity. GatEx was suspended during Covid but was already under-used despite the railways carrying record loadings in the years before the pandemic. Passengers voted with their wallets and bought the cheapest ticket which was "Southern Only" or "Not Gatwick Express" for a time penalty of as little as three minutes. Many needed then, and still need today, the interchange facilities of Clapham Junction and, to a lesser extent, East Croydon and are obliged to use Southern services. These then overload and are subject to delays as everyone tries to board or alight. The success of TfL's fares structure hasn't helped those either since they are often inundated at East Croydon with local passengers travelling to Clapham or Victoria, or heavily loaded from Victoria in the reverse direction.
Dwell time has blown out massively since the days of slam-door stock being allowed 30 seconds or a minute before "ding-ding and away". Electrostars now often require 2 - 3 minutes for a major station stop which impacts upon line capacity. Witness the queueing of trains to get a platform at East Croydon and Clapham Junction with one or two sitting outside on red signals while the train ahead unloads.
To my mind the existing service level is adequate most of the time but the airport loading needs to be netter balanced. This can be done by applying one fare for all trains and stopping the GatEx trains alternately as described. 12-car trains will help but rolling stock remains in short supply. The 377/5s, which are Southern units on sub-lease, were supposed to come back to Southern but South Eastern has disposed of its 465/9 Networker fleet before gatting anything else meaning they are still needed there to maintain services. When more 387s cascade to Southern things might improve.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 12, 2024 10:22:19 GMT
I don't know of any plans to "resume 4tph" on this service. Gatwick Airport generates huge amounts of traffic but the existing service can cope. It would however cope better if the two "GatEx" Brighton fasts were to stop alternately at either Clapham Junction or East Croydon easing the pressure on Southern services at those locations. It would also help if more trains on that corridor were 12-car not 8-car. I agree that at a minimum, a Clapham Junction stop should be added to Gatwick Express services. East Croydon is less of an issue, as it still has Thameslink, but Clapham Junction no longer has any direct services to Brighton. Strangely though, Southern does still operate a semi-fast Victoria-Brighton service on Sundays. In my experience the Gatwick Express is never significantly busy (likely as other options are cheaper), and seems fine with 8 cars. It's all the other services on the Brighton main line that get overcrowded - Thameslink stopping services to Brighton, and Southern services via Hove or Lewes. I also question the need for a premium service on this route. From Victoria to Gatwick, the GX is only very slightly quicker than the more frequent Southern services (which make two additional stops). And from London to Brighton, Thameslink services towards Cambridge are only slightly slower than GX. For most passengers, price is more important than comfort, and there would be very little difference compared to Southen services when more 387s are introduced (from Great Northern). And for Airport passengers specifically, Thameslink is probably the most popular option, since it links directly to multiple areas of Central London - in the same way that many Heathrow Express passengers would have now switched to the Elizabeth Line.
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 12, 2024 10:53:30 GMT
When I worked at Clapham (for SWR) a very large number of customers was amazed and frustrated that there was no direct service to Brighton. Often as not the quickest way was to put them on the Littlehampton service for a change at Hove. Ticketing easements have always meant that is a valid route. "Via Lewes" is also valid but takes longer. As is, curiously, "via Barnham" which allows the double-run from Ford and therefor use of the faster Portsmouth portion of Arun Valley trains. The only restrictive tickets i.e. must travel via Hassocks are the Southern web-only discounted ones which are "Booked train only".
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Post by PGAT on Jun 12, 2024 10:56:35 GMT
It's a tourist trap. Despite not getting humongous passenger loads it's clearly doing well enough charging premiums that GTR/DfT aren't willing to give up this service. Once again, they will not stop at Clapham Junction or East Croydon because they cannot get away with charging premiums for doing so.
I'd say the ideal scenario is copy what happens on Sundays: cut the GX to Gatwick Airport making it a shuttle and use the existing path as a Southern semi-fast to Brighton which can then call at Clapham and East Croydon.
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 12, 2024 11:23:18 GMT
It's a tourist trap. Despite not getting humongous passenger loads it's clearly doing well enough charging premiums that GTR/DfT aren't willing to give up this service. Once again, they will not stop at Clapham Junction or East Croydon because they cannot get away with charging premiums for doing so. I'd say the ideal scenario is copy what happens on Sundays: cut the GX to Gatwick Airport making it a shuttle and use the existing path as a Southern semi-fast to Brighton which can then call at Clapham and East Croydon. The pathways are not really there for that on weekdays if I understand you correctly. A half-hourly Victoria - Gatwick only service and a Southern semi-fast Victoria - Brighton service presumably half-hourly. This was effectively the level of service offered pre-Covid (though with four tph to Gatwick two of which ran on fast to Brighton) but was found to create congestion as trains were timed at minimum headways. What works on a computer screen does not always work on the ground. 60-second station stops are unrealistic at Gatwick, Croydon and Clapham. Trains stopping at Gatwick are now typically allowed three minutes to do so. Dwell time at Croydon and Clapham is an issue with many trains requiring the same two or three minutes simply because of the numbers wishing to alight and board. Often with multiple suitcases if they are airline passengers. Hence the need to serve those stations with a fast service to the airport what ever colour the trains are. Brighton is important enough to warrant better than a semi-fast service to London all day. If anything has to go it should be some of the Thameslink services south of Three Bridges. The faster ones are lightly used off-peak; the slower ones can mop up the capacity without losing service at intermediate stations. For those travelling to London from mid-Sussex stations the Littlehampton and Eastbourne trains offer a faster service anyway although some users along the coast would be delighted if they no longer had to stop at almost all stations south of Gatwick; they used to be Gatwick - Haywards Heath - Hove / Lewes and are now slower than steam was in the 1920s for journeys between the coast and London. Albeit making more stops.
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Post by greenboy on Jun 12, 2024 17:08:01 GMT
I don't know of any plans to "resume 4tph" on this service. Gatwick Airport generates huge amounts of traffic but the existing service can cope. It would however cope better if the two "GatEx" Brighton fasts were to stop alternately at either Clapham Junction or East Croydon easing the pressure on Southern services at those locations. It would also help if more trains on that corridor were 12-car not 8-car. I agree that at a minimum, a Clapham Junction stop should be added to Gatwick Express services. East Croydon is less of an issue, as it still has Thameslink, but Clapham Junction no longer has any direct services to Brighton. Strangely though, Southern does still operate a semi-fast Victoria-Brighton service on Sundays. In my experience the Gatwick Express is never significantly busy (likely as other options are cheaper), and seems fine with 8 cars. It's all the other services on the Brighton main line that get overcrowded - Thameslink stopping services to Brighton, and Southern services via Hove or Lewes. I also question the need for a premium service on this route. From Victoria to Gatwick, the GX is only very slightly quicker than the more frequent Southern services (which make two additional stops). And from London to Brighton, Thameslink services towards Cambridge are only slightly slower than GX. For most passengers, price is more important than comfort, and there would be very little difference compared to Southen services when more 387s are introduced (from Great Northern). And for Airport passengers specifically, Thameslink is probably the most popular option, since it links directly to multiple areas of Central London - in the same way that many Heathrow Express passengers would have now switched to the Elizabeth Line. I think an additional stop at Clapham Junction would suffice provided it's made clear that the train is fast from there to Gatwick Airport.
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Post by redexpress on Jun 12, 2024 22:24:13 GMT
I don't know of any plans to "resume 4tph" on this service. Gatwick Airport generates huge amounts of traffic but the existing service can cope. It would however cope better if the two "GatEx" Brighton fasts were to stop alternately at either Clapham Junction or East Croydon easing the pressure on Southern services at those locations. It would also help if more trains on that corridor were 12-car not 8-car. I agree that at a minimum, a Clapham Junction stop should be added to Gatwick Express services. East Croydon is less of an issue, as it still has Thameslink, but Clapham Junction no longer has any direct services to Brighton. Strangely though, Southern does still operate a semi-fast Victoria-Brighton service on Sundays. In my experience the Gatwick Express is never significantly busy (likely as other options are cheaper), and seems fine with 8 cars. It's all the other services on the Brighton main line that get overcrowded - Thameslink stopping services to Brighton, and Southern services via Hove or Lewes. I also question the need for a premium service on this route. From Victoria to Gatwick, the GX is only very slightly quicker than the more frequent Southern services (which make two additional stops). And from London to Brighton, Thameslink services towards Cambridge are only slightly slower than GX. For most passengers, price is more important than comfort, and there would be very little difference compared to Southen services when more 387s are introduced (from Great Northern). And for Airport passengers specifically, Thameslink is probably the most popular option, since it links directly to multiple areas of Central London - in the same way that many Heathrow Express passengers would have now switched to the Elizabeth Line. Agreed. My main gripe with GX is that it is not just a premium service, but an unjustifiably expensive one. During M-F peaks the fare difference is less than £5, which may be worth paying to avoid the crush loads on commuter services. But outside of these times the GX fare is more than twice the standard fare, for a service that is only marginally quicker. No wonder it is viewed as a rip-off. If a premium service is to be retained (which is debatable), the premium should be set at a more attractive level.
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Post by buspete on Jun 12, 2024 22:30:58 GMT
Just a few random thoughts, generated by post to my posts, some end with a question mark.
Firstly a colleague of mine, who works for TFL and lives in Harrow, she is also very frugal, she was going to Gatwick to catch a flight, she was going to go to Victoria and catch the Gatwick Express, I said to her “why are you going to Victoria” she said “Gatwick Express,” she said then “do you have a better idea.” I said “go to Farringdon and catch Thameslink” this was before the Thameslink project, she said “is the train slow,” which I then said “it is slow to London Bridge, then from there motors fast as to Gatwick,” she then asked “if it run non-stop to Gatwick,” which I said “it only stopped at East Croydon.” So here is clincher and bear in mind I said ‘she is frugal’ when I told her “it would be half the price of the Gatwick Express. So what part of her jaw hit the floor first. She now travels via Farringdon all the time and obviously this has been improved with the Thameslink project and saved her dosh.
I thought the 4tph was axed to two trains per hour, because of rebuilding at Gatwick, but sounds I’m wrong on this?
Whenever I get a train to Chichester, more people get on at Clapham Junction and East Croydon than Victoria.
Incidentally is there a difference between a fare on Southern/Gatwick Express from Brighton to Victoria?
The only different between a Southern/Thameslink and Gatwick Express train imho is the price now?
I am saying axing the Southern Chichester/Portsmouth/Southampton service and turning it into Gatwick Express that doesn’t need to split at Horsham, from the ex Gatwick Express slots? However it sound the 2 Gatwick Express slots have been utilised?
The Southern stopping train is only 33 minutes (stopping at Clapham Junction/East Croydon opposed to the Gatwick Express being 31 minutes, so not much in it. I am not opposed to making additional stops, as long as it can be proved to be beneficial.
As said on the earlier post the Chichester portion is very slow, it takes an hour, for a distance of 46 miles, this is also on a limited stop fast train.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 13, 2024 9:47:44 GMT
Just a few random thoughts, generated by post to my posts, some end with a question mark. Firstly a colleague of mine, who works for TFL and lives in Harrow, she is also very frugal, she was going to Gatwick to catch a flight, she was going to go to Victoria and catch the Gatwick Express, I said to her “why are you going to Victoria” she said “Gatwick Express,” she said then “do you have a better idea.” I said “go to Farringdon and catch Thameslink” this was before the Thameslink project, she said “is the train slow,” which I then said “it is slow to London Bridge, then from there motors fast as to Gatwick,” she then asked “if it run non-stop to Gatwick,” which I said “it only stopped at East Croydon.” So here is clincher and bear in mind I said ‘she is frugal’ when I told her “it would be half the price of the Gatwick Express. So what part of her jaw hit the floor first. She now travels via Farringdon all the time and obviously this has been improved with the Thameslink project and saved her dosh. Would be even cheaper to use the hourly WLL Southern service from Harrow to Clapham Junction, and change there for any Gatwick service
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Post by rif153 on Jun 13, 2024 14:13:36 GMT
The lack of Southern services from Victoria-Brighton feels like such a glaring omission from the timetable. Its ridiculous that Brighton doesn't have a direct service to Clapham Junction whilst shacks on the South Cost like Bosham and Fishbourne now do. I do accept that the old situation of coastway services splitting/attaching at Haywards Heath simply had to go, but having 2tph Gatwick Express largely carrying fresh air down to Brighton is such a waste of main line capacity. Whilst the Gatwick Express primarily functions as a non-stop airport service, its lack of other handy stops really limits its usefulness, whilst the Thameslink offers lots of popular destinations and connections. Speed clearly isn't that important many Brighton line passengers, who mainly flock to the Thameslink, rather than going for the miniscule time saving offered by the Gatwick Express. I think the Thameslink programme has massively boosted this route's attractiveness and even if the Southern service was restored, I think Victoria trains would struggle to claw back custom.
Ticketing on the Brighton main line is a total mess too. The slightly higher fare for Victoria versus London Thameslink from Brighton needs to go (I believe there's at best a dubious legal basis for GTR charging more for Victoria). From Brighton there's a whole assortment of tickets up to London you can get, whilst most on the day SWML tickets, by comparison, seem to be to 'London Terminals', thus offering greater flexibility.
Last time I came through the ticket gates at Victoria platforms 15-19, I saw quite a lot of work going on to open up the area behind the escalators up to Victoria Place and provide more barriers. It looked to me like this would allow access to platform 14 from this side and at the time, I actually saw a Littlehampton train departing from 14. This made me wonder whether platform 14 might be turned over to use by South Coast services. There's no way the Gatwick Express should be allowed to hog two platforms at Victoria whilst running just two trains an hour. My understanding is that contactless users entering platforms 13/14 at Victoria are charged the GX fare and if Southern services use those platforms, contactless users have to tap out at platform 12's gates instead. More of a rethinking may be necessary to hand one of these platforms over.
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Post by PGAT on Jun 13, 2024 14:38:57 GMT
It's a tourist trap. Despite not getting humongous passenger loads it's clearly doing well enough charging premiums that GTR/DfT aren't willing to give up this service. Once again, they will not stop at Clapham Junction or East Croydon because they cannot get away with charging premiums for doing so. I'd say the ideal scenario is copy what happens on Sundays: cut the GX to Gatwick Airport making it a shuttle and use the existing path as a Southern semi-fast to Brighton which can then call at Clapham and East Croydon. The pathways are not really there for that on weekdays if I understand you correctly. A half-hourly Victoria - Gatwick only service and a Southern semi-fast Victoria - Brighton service presumably half-hourly. This was effectively the level of service offered pre-Covid (though with four tph to Gatwick two of which ran on fast to Brighton) but was found to create congestion as trains were timed at minimum headways. What works on a computer screen does not always work on the ground. 60-second station stops are unrealistic at Gatwick, Croydon and Clapham. Trains stopping at Gatwick are now typically allowed three minutes to do so. Dwell time at Croydon and Clapham is an issue with many trains requiring the same two or three minutes simply because of the numbers wishing to alight and board. Often with multiple suitcases if they are airline passengers. Hence the need to serve those stations with a fast service to the airport what ever colour the trains are. Brighton is important enough to warrant better than a semi-fast service to London all day. If anything has to go it should be some of the Thameslink services south of Three Bridges. The faster ones are lightly used off-peak; the slower ones can mop up the capacity without losing service at intermediate stations. For those travelling to London from mid-Sussex stations the Littlehampton and Eastbourne trains offer a faster service anyway although some users along the coast would be delighted if they no longer had to stop at almost all stations south of Gatwick; they used to be Gatwick - Haywards Heath - Hove / Lewes and are now slower than steam was in the 1920s for journeys between the coast and London. Albeit making more stops. Are you sure there isn't capacity? Remember pre-covid had 4 extra paths per hour that are no longer in use (The GX shuttle and the Caterham/Tattenham Corner service). Also I'm not convinced by your point about the semi-fast service from Brighton being crucial: extra stops at Preston Park, Hassocks and Burgess Hill already exist in the peak, and the off-peak service is so ridiculously padded it takes roughly the same time with and without the extra stops. If you were to convert that path into a Southern train calling at Clapham and East Croydon you could then sacrifice the stops at Hassocks and Preston Park (they gained extra peak services to Cambridge anyway in December) and the journey times would be equivalent to now, but with the added bonus of a direct Clapham to Brighton link restored and much cheaper fares.
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Post by PGAT on Jun 13, 2024 14:55:32 GMT
I thought the 4tph was axed to two trains per hour, because of rebuilding at Gatwick, but sounds I’m wrong on this? It is correct, as when Platforms 5 & 6 were closed there was no space to turn around the shuttle, although the reason now is probably DfT cuts as per usual.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 13, 2024 16:04:58 GMT
The pathways are not really there for that on weekdays if I understand you correctly. A half-hourly Victoria - Gatwick only service and a Southern semi-fast Victoria - Brighton service presumably half-hourly. This was effectively the level of service offered pre-Covid (though with four tph to Gatwick two of which ran on fast to Brighton) but was found to create congestion as trains were timed at minimum headways. What works on a computer screen does not always work on the ground. 60-second station stops are unrealistic at Gatwick, Croydon and Clapham. Trains stopping at Gatwick are now typically allowed three minutes to do so. Dwell time at Croydon and Clapham is an issue with many trains requiring the same two or three minutes simply because of the numbers wishing to alight and board. Often with multiple suitcases if they are airline passengers. Hence the need to serve those stations with a fast service to the airport what ever colour the trains are. Brighton is important enough to warrant better than a semi-fast service to London all day. If anything has to go it should be some of the Thameslink services south of Three Bridges. The faster ones are lightly used off-peak; the slower ones can mop up the capacity without losing service at intermediate stations. For those travelling to London from mid-Sussex stations the Littlehampton and Eastbourne trains offer a faster service anyway although some users along the coast would be delighted if they no longer had to stop at almost all stations south of Gatwick; they used to be Gatwick - Haywards Heath - Hove / Lewes and are now slower than steam was in the 1920s for journeys between the coast and London. Albeit making more stops. Are you sure there isn't capacity? Remember pre-covid had 4 extra paths per hour that are no longer in use (The GX shuttle and the Caterham/Tattenham Corner service). Also I'm not convinced by your point about the semi-fast service from Brighton being crucial: extra stops at Preston Park, Hassocks and Burgess Hill already exist in the peak, and the off-peak service is so ridiculously padded it takes roughly the same time with and without the extra stops. If you were to convert that path into a Southern train calling at Clapham and East Croydon you could then sacrifice the stops at Hassocks and Preston Park (they gained extra peak services to Cambridge anyway in December) and the journey times would be equivalent to now, but with the added bonus of a direct Clapham to Brighton link restored and much cheaper fares. The Caterham service for services via Tulse Hill should never of been reduced and cut back to East Croydon - we went from 8 car services serving all stops to Caterham to 5 car services terminating at East Croydon and hogging platform 5. The Gatwick Express should really be removed if the extra paths are needed for other services - I mean, it's bonkers that no Southern services run to Brighton from Victoria other than Sundays
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Post by YY13VKP on Jun 13, 2024 20:25:41 GMT
I thought the 4tph was axed to two trains per hour, because of rebuilding at Gatwick, but sounds I’m wrong on this? It is correct, as when Platforms 5 & 6 were closed there was no space to turn around the shuttle, although the reason now is probably DfT cuts as per usual. Yep that is correct. The Gatwick Express frequency was halved due to the Gatwick rebuilding project with a view to restore the full 4tph GX service post rebuild. Unfortunately thanks to the "covid related" cuts to services and the withdrawal of the Class 313, 365 and 455 fleets there is no longer enough stock to run the full Gatwick Express service. 4 car 377's have had to be used to replace services previously operated by 455's in the metro area and to allow enough 377/3's to replace both 313's and 455's on the 2H/2J service groups. As a result, 387's were in use on the East Coastway since 2020 and are now being used on some West Coastway services (mainly Brighton to Southampton services) after the timetable recast that went live this month. If the demand suffices, there may be a chance of the 4tph to Gatwick returning late next year or even in 2026, but this is depending on how the fleet cascade goes. So far, Southern have gained just two 387's from Great Northern - 387201 which is back after 3 years away and GN's 379's require work to be done to them before they enter service which could take a while yet - so who knows how long this cascade may take. Are you sure there isn't capacity? Remember pre-covid had 4 extra paths per hour that are no longer in use (The GX shuttle and the Caterham/Tattenham Corner service). Also I'm not convinced by your point about the semi-fast service from Brighton being crucial: extra stops at Preston Park, Hassocks and Burgess Hill already exist in the peak, and the off-peak service is so ridiculously padded it takes roughly the same time with and without the extra stops. If you were to convert that path into a Southern train calling at Clapham and East Croydon you could then sacrifice the stops at Hassocks and Preston Park (they gained extra peak services to Cambridge anyway in December) and the journey times would be equivalent to now, but with the added bonus of a direct Clapham to Brighton link restored and much cheaper fares. The Caterham service for services via Tulse Hill should never of been reduced and cut back to East Croydon - we went from 8 car services serving all stops to Caterham to 5 car services terminating at East Croydon and hogging platform 5. The Gatwick Express should really be removed if the extra paths are needed for other services - I mean, it's bonkers that no Southern services run to Brighton from Victoria other than Sundays Capacity to terminate the London Bridge to Caterham via Tulse Hill services was created by withdrawing the London Bridge to East Croydon via Forest Hill services entirely. There are plans being drawn up to deliver some metro enhancements soon, possibly for May 2025 but I can't reveal much just yet! Though I don't think the Victoria to Brighton semi fast services can be restored in their original paths - I think these have now been taken by the Ore/Eastbourne and Littlehampton trains not needing to be split at Haywards Heath in the standard hour anymore, therefore they now run at 2tph each.
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