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Post by buspete on Jun 13, 2024 21:39:07 GMT
So if it was seen as undesirable to split the Ore/Eastbourne and Littlehampton trains at Haywards Heath, then why not the same for Bognor Regis ans Chichester trains then?
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 13, 2024 22:14:24 GMT
So if it was seen as undesirable to split the Ore/Eastbourne and Littlehampton trains at Haywards Heath, then why not the same for Bognor Regis ans Chichester trains then? Different scenario. On the Brighton Line capacity is at a premium. Splitters allowed the continued provision of through services twice an hour to both coasts but at a cost of most portions being restricted to 4-cars. That proved inadequate. However another benefit was that the loops at Haywards Heath could be used for the split / combine operation while fast trains ran through on the "through" platforms. All very nice when everything was on time but it rarely was. One portion could delay the other or the entire train could be delayed by a late-running fast not booked to call and given priority despite the delays. Much of the need for overtaking has gone with the reduction in service levels and the use of the former Brighton semi-fast paths for coastal trains. There is still an extended stop at Haywards Heath but the previous nine minutes or so was frustrating in the extreme. The couple / split can be done in two or three minutes. Arun Valley trains split at Horsham where there is no pressure on capacity most of the time and where nothing else uses the route beyond Horsham. It helps to minimise journey times to have a fast portion rather than have the entire train stop at all stations south of Horsham most of which are very quiet and don't require an 8-car or 12-car train calling every half-hour. Historically fast and slow trains were entirely separate but hourly and the split on the fasts took place at Barnham. So this pattern represents an improvement both in service levels and journey times. If only there was a direct link between Littlehampton and stations Arundel to Crawley without having to endure a fussy change at Ford .....
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 13, 2024 22:24:07 GMT
The pathing was extremely tight. What worked in theory on a computer didn't work on the ground. A 3-minute headway gets shot to pieces when a train takes two minutes for station duties at Clapham Junction; the train behind is delayed and the domino effect occurs.
It happened every day. In the end the way out was to skip advertised stops with Southern running fast to or from Victoria omitting Clapham and sometimes East Croydon to clear the delays. The entire route could quickly become affected too. One train even seconds out of path at a conflicting junction would affect all others in the area. Littlehampton trains regularly got turned back at West Worthing or ran fast Haywards Heath - Hove - Worthing - Littlehampton (or vice versa) to regain time. The service was a mess.
Thinning it out brought about an overnight improvement. Punctuality has seldom been the Brighton Line's strong point but with the reduced timetable there was a little wriggle room. GatEx would still like their trains to be timed out of Victoria exactly on the hour and half hour (currently at xx29 and xx59) but that extra minute would affect so many other moves.
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Post by buspete on Jun 13, 2024 23:18:45 GMT
Thanks.
I get no pressure at Horsham, however trains still take an hour to get from Chichester to Gatwick which is soooooo slow. If there was a separate Bognor/Chichester train it could be possible to run a 15 minute service to Horsham/Barnham?
As a few posters have said the Gatwick Express is from a bygone era and if not many people use it - there is no point keeping it or alternatively still keep the brand but make the service relevant to today by not just having a Gatwick - Victoria service when the other part comes back, if it does.
I’ve just had a look at the off peak fares;
Gatwick to London Victoria (Gatwick Express) £23 Gatwick to London Victoria (Southern) £20.40 Brighton to London Victoria (Gatwick Express) £23.90 (£35.20 return) Gatwick to London Bridge (Thameslink) £13.80 Brighton to London Bridge (Thameslink) £22.60
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Post by lj61nwc on Jun 13, 2024 23:58:36 GMT
The pathing was extremely tight. What worked in theory on a computer didn't work on the ground. A 3-minute headway gets shot to pieces when a train takes two minutes for station duties at Clapham Junction; the train behind is delayed and the domino effect occurs. It happened every day. In the end the way out was to skip advertised stops with Southern running fast to or from Victoria omitting Clapham and sometimes East Croydon to clear the delays. The entire route could quickly become affected too. One train even seconds out of path at a conflicting junction would affect all others in the area. Littlehampton trains regularly got turned back at West Worthing or ran fast Haywards Heath - Hove - Worthing - Littlehampton (or vice versa) to regain time. The service was a mess. SWR have had same affect from Clapham with three minute gap and few years ago omitted the scheduled Earlsfield stop from Shepperton services to help clear any delays that build up. It provides inconvenience to those travelling from Earlsfield onto Norbiton onwards but is scheduled one and not randomly occurring one like Southern used to be
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Post by PGAT on Jun 14, 2024 6:08:07 GMT
Thanks. I get no pressure at Horsham, however trains still take an hour to get from Chichester to Gatwick which is soooooo slow. If there was a separate Bognor/Chichester train it could be possible to run a 15 minute service to Horsham/Barnham? As a few posters have said the Gatwick Express is from a bygone era and if not many people use it - there is no point keeping it or alternatively still keep the brand but make the service relevant to today by not just having a Gatwick - Victoria service when the other part comes back, if it does. I’ve just had a look at the off peak fares; Gatwick to London Victoria (Gatwick Express) £23 Gatwick to London Victoria (Southern) £20.40 Brighton to London Victoria (Gatwick Express) £23.90 (£35.20 return) Gatwick to London Bridge (Thameslink) £13.80 Brighton to London Bridge (Thameslink) £22.60 With an Adult Oyster the off peak fares to Victoria and London Bridge is £10.10
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 14, 2024 10:12:17 GMT
Let's put some numbers to this.
Chichester - Gatwick Airport via Crawley is 36 miles. A typical journey is 59 minutes therefore averaging 40mph Chichester - Brighton is 28¼ miles. The faster trains, which make more stops than the Arun Valley ones do, take around 50 minutes for an average of 34mph Brighton - Gatwick is 24¼ miles. A semi-fast Thameslink train takes typically 33 minutes for an average of 44mph; I used the semi-fast as the best comparison with the other routes rather than a non-stop because the other routes do not feature such runs.
The Brighton main line is fundamentally a 90 - 100 mph railway all the way with a few lower restrictions. The Arun Valley has few section where more than 75mph is permitted and numerous quite severe restrictions such as through Arundel and Ford Junctions. The Coastway line is beset with level crossings which limit line speed to an extent, has much the same speed restrictions through the junctions but is otherwise a medium-speed railway with 75mph permitted in places.
There has at times also been a service from Chichester to Gatwick via Hove at considerable time penalty but at the same fares. This was formed by the Portsmouth or Southampton portion off the Victoria - Littlehampton trains when they divided at Worthing. For a couple of years they even ran to Bournemouth. Fares from Chichester to Gatwick remain valid via Hove unless endorsed "Booked Train Only" which applies only to the Advance £10 promotion. "AP" (Any Permitted route) includes the Hove option but does not include travel via Brighton. A relic of the old direct service, perhaps.
In the scheme of things the Chichester - Gatwick journey is not unduly slow. There are normally only four intermediate stops; Barnham, Horsham, Crawley and Three Bridges. A passenger wishing to travel between Chichester and Southampton Airport, which is closer at just 32 miles, will have a longer and slower journey and will now have to change trains at least once - either at Southampton Central or at Fareham and Eastleigh. Typical journey times are 74 - 94 minutes.
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Post by route53 on Jun 14, 2024 10:29:39 GMT
With regards to Clapham I think it’s lunacy that trains to one of the most popular seaside cities in the South-East of England, doesn’t call at one of the largest interchange stations outside of Zone 1 without an underground connection
My view is that all trains should call at Clapham, it’s a major hub, the GatEx should stop there, I recall going to Brighton as a teen in the mid 00s with my mates, we got on at Victoria and it was the old Vic-CJ-EC-Brighton express service, very few got on at Victoria, but hordes of passengers got on at Clapham and Croydon.
The demand is there for a GatEx stop at Clapham, East Croydon not so much since that has other Southern services plus the Thameslink’s to link it with Gatwick and Brighton.
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Post by ibus246 on Jun 14, 2024 11:35:26 GMT
With regards to Clapham I think it’s lunacy that trains to one of the most popular seaside cities in the South-East of England, doesn’t call at one of the largest interchange stations outside of Zone 1 without an underground connection My view is that all trains should call at Clapham, it’s a major hub, the GatEx should stop there, I recall going to Brighton as a teen in the mid 00s with my mates, we got on at Victoria and it was the old Vic-CJ-EC-Brighton express service, very few got on at Victoria, but hordes of passengers got on at Clapham and Croydon. The demand is there for a GatEx stop at Clapham, East Croydon not so much since that has other Southern services plus the Thameslink’s to link it with Gatwick and Brighton. Then what would be the point in even having the Gatwick Express? And how is an experience 20 years ago at all relevant today?
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Post by greenboy on Jun 14, 2024 11:56:01 GMT
With regards to Clapham I think it’s lunacy that trains to one of the most popular seaside cities in the South-East of England, doesn’t call at one of the largest interchange stations outside of Zone 1 without an underground connection My view is that all trains should call at Clapham, it’s a major hub, the GatEx should stop there, I recall going to Brighton as a teen in the mid 00s with my mates, we got on at Victoria and it was the old Vic-CJ-EC-Brighton express service, very few got on at Victoria, but hordes of passengers got on at Clapham and Croydon. The demand is there for a GatEx stop at Clapham, East Croydon not so much since that has other Southern services plus the Thameslink’s to link it with Gatwick and Brighton. I don't think it would be possible for all trains to call at Clapham Junction without losing capacity, I think all SWR trains pass through platform 9 non stop in the pm peak for that reason.
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Post by route53 on Jun 14, 2024 13:41:17 GMT
With regards to Clapham I think it’s lunacy that trains to one of the most popular seaside cities in the South-East of England, doesn’t call at one of the largest interchange stations outside of Zone 1 without an underground connection My view is that all trains should call at Clapham, it’s a major hub, the GatEx should stop there, I recall going to Brighton as a teen in the mid 00s with my mates, we got on at Victoria and it was the old Vic-CJ-EC-Brighton express service, very few got on at Victoria, but hordes of passengers got on at Clapham and Croydon. The demand is there for a GatEx stop at Clapham, East Croydon not so much since that has other Southern services plus the Thameslink’s to link it with Gatwick and Brighton. Then what would be the point in even having the Gatwick Express? And how is an experience 20 years ago at all relevant today? Stansted Express has stops between London & Stansted, there’s no issues there, there would only be one stop added between London & Gatwick, it’s about connectivity. In a post Thameslink expansion/Elizabeth line world where people prefer to take a cheaper and more convenient route, The Thameslink from Gatwick serves a wider range of central London destinations and connections than the GatEx does, likewise for the EL when compared to HEx, Airport expresses will have to adapt. I stated my experience (one of many times) because it has a point, Clapham is a major interchange point, more people got on there for Brighton than Victoria, that’s the point I was making, didn’t realise it wasn’t clear…
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Post by vjaska on Jun 14, 2024 14:00:36 GMT
Then what would be the point in even having the Gatwick Express? And how is an experience 20 years ago at all relevant today? Stansted Express has stops between London & Stansted, there’s no issues there, there would only be one stop added between London & Gatwick, it’s about connectivity. In a post Thameslink expansion/Elizabeth line world where people prefer to take a cheaper and more convenient route, The Thameslink from Gatwick serves a wider range of central London destinations and connections than the GatEx does, likewise for the EL when compared to HEx, Airport expresses will have to adapt. I stated my experience (one of many times) because it has a point, Clapham is a major interchange point, more people got on there for Brighton than Victoria, that’s the point I was making, didn’t realise it wasn’t clear… I used to use Clapham Junction to reach Brighton until the Southern services to Brighton from Victoria ceased - now, I just grab a bus 10 minutes up the road to Tulse Hill, take a train to East Croydon and then change onto Thameslink. It's roughly a similar time as I don't have to sit on a busy 37, three routes run from my house to Tulse Hill though the drawback is the interchange at Croydon doesn't always work timing wise, especially the return where I can have 20 minute plus waits. Personally, I think the Gatwick Express services should be entirely replaced by Southern trains starting at Victoria - as others have said, these are rarely busy unlike most services along the Brighton Main Line
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Post by gwiwer on Jun 14, 2024 16:35:38 GMT
"Express" does not have to mean "Non-stop".
It means different things to different people but implies a fast(er) service. Heathrow Express makes no intermediate calls but neither does it have an obvioius interchange unserved - yet. What happens when Old Oak Common opens remains to be seen. The journey times is also much shorter than on Gatwick or Stansted Express services.
Go to Australia - as I did for some years - and "express" simply means "not stopping at" so for example a suburban train which might have a journey time of above an hour and stops at almost everywhere will be announced as "Running Express from A to B" if it skips just one station out of perhaps 20.
I see no problem at all in retaining the "Gatwick Express" branding with a stop at Clapham Junction included. It works on the current timetable too. Leave Victoria 2 minutes earlier than now (a pathway already available), allow an extra 3 minutes made up, notionally, of 90 seconds to brake and accelerate and 90 seconds station dwell and run 1 minutes later thence to Gatwick. It works on the Up as well; the GatEx has a small window ahead and behind it with nothing scheduled so could be stopped at Clapham and arrive at Victoria 2 - 3 minutes later than currently.
Those who want to argue the point might wish to remind themselves that these trains also call at Haywards Heath meaning they are not non-stop between Gatwick and Brighton either.
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Post by PGAT on Jun 14, 2024 17:06:06 GMT
"Express" does not have to mean "Non-stop". It means different things to different people but implies a fast(er) service. Heathrow Express makes no intermediate calls but neither does it have an obvioius interchange unserved - yet. What happens when Old Oak Common opens remains to be seen. The journey times is also much shorter than on Gatwick or Stansted Express services. Go to Australia - as I did for some years - and "express" simply means "not stopping at" so for example a suburban train which might have a journey time of above an hour and stops at almost everywhere will be announced as "Running Express from A to B" if it skips just one station out of perhaps 20. I see no problem at all in retaining the "Gatwick Express" branding with a stop at Clapham Junction included. It works on the current timetable too. Leave Victoria 2 minutes earlier than now (a pathway already available), allow an extra 3 minutes made up, notionally, of 90 seconds to brake and accelerate and 90 seconds station dwell and run 1 minutes later thence to Gatwick. It works on the Up as well; the GatEx has a small window ahead and behind it with nothing scheduled so could be stopped at Clapham and arrive at Victoria 2 - 3 minutes later than currently. Those who want to argue the point might wish to remind themselves that these trains also call at Haywards Heath meaning they are not non-stop between Gatwick and Brighton either. I strongly disagree here due to the context of the scenario. "Express" might not always mean "non-stop" but in this case the "express" service only skips out on one station. The time saving isn't even that great either, since Platform 1 at East Croydon has a 30mph limit and there is frequently congestion at Windmill Bridge Jn so in the other direction the train crawls past Selhurst waiting for its slot. The Gatwick Express branding is already on thin ice - it already has a horrible reputation domestically for essentially being a rip-off and they're the first services to go during the event of disruption, a strike or even the COVID emergency timetable. At least by being non-stop it gave the illusion that the service was much faster than the alternatives to tourists who are not savvy with the network. Now, there's no excuse. The "trouble" is that Gatwick Airport is on a mainline and already sees ample express trains already. Great if you are GTR/DfT, not so great if you're a fan of using rolling stock efficiently. Re the Gatwick to Brighton bit, the stop at Haywards Heath doesn't matter because it does not make money off of gullible tourists but rather monopolises the only direct service from Victoria to Brighton.
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Post by rif153 on Jun 14, 2024 20:21:11 GMT
The decline of what was once such a premium rail route to playing second fiddle to the Thameslink out of Brighton is really quite sad, although the days of the Brighton Belle may be long gone, we had Connex's Brighton Express in more recent times. If the Brighton-Victoria Southern services were restored Monday-Saturday, for me, the only non-negotiable intermediate stop would be Clapham Junction. Obviously it would call at the likes of Gatwick Airport and Haywards Heath too, but I don't think you need to have all the Sunday service's stops given that the Thameslink would still mop them up. The Littlehampton service has had stops added to it to offset for the loss of Southern's Victoria-Brighton services too. A stop at Three Bridges for any reinstated Victoria-Brighton service would be desirable though, given its a key interchange for Thameslink services and the Arun Valley line. I would happily have a Gatwick Express service with just a stop at Clapham Junction added in to be honest.
Express services are great for airports like Gatwick and Stansted to market themselves as well connected to London, given they are quite far out of the city. When you arrive at Gatwick, the terminal seems to be soaked in red GX branding to push you towards that option. Now the Gatwick Express is down to 2tph, its attractivness for anyone arriving at Gatwick is limited when you could get to Victoria faster by cutting a long wait or even in a similar time if you snub the express. I've seen talk that having an airport express can be reassuring to tourists arriving in a unfamilliar place, a narrative which I think is utterly insulting to visitors. If that were the case, why do so many tourists (who's first language isn't English) opt for Southern or Thameslink services instead. Tourists in plenty of cities around the world manage perfectly fine without a branded airport express service, there's no reason you can't apply the same to Gatwick. Look at Heathrow, where visitors flock to the Elizabeth Line over the comparatively useful Heathrow Express. Connectivity is ultimately more important than speed.
The Thameslink core could really do with more fast services to Gatwick to help mop up this demand. Northbound Thameslink services don't have the luxury of as leisurely a timetabled stop at Gatwick like the Southern ones do, which doesn't help Thameslink's already fragile relabililty. I would reroute the notoriously long and unreliable Horsham-Peterborough services via the Quarry and cut them back to Three Bridges to do this, I'm not familiar with the route's northern end so others are better placed to say if changes there are also neccesarry for that service. The Bedford-Three Bridges services would be extended through to Horsham to compensate for this and their stopping pattern would needed to be adjusted aprioriately.
Running services from Victoria dowwn to the Redhill line is of course an absolute nightmare as they have to cross from fasts to the slows either at Selhurst Triangle or Stoat's Nest, unless you run them down the slows all the way. Sending Southern services from Redhill up to London Bridge is also pretty much a non-starter at the moment due to a lack of paths through Windmill Bridge Junction. The current situation with the Reigate services is a complete mess, they leave Victoria very closely behind the Arun Valley services and can't afford to be affected by delays backing up as they run arrive at East Croydon just before the CAT/TAT services, which pick up intermediate stops between East Croydon and Purley. The situation with overcrowded four car trains on the main line reminds me of what we used to have in my neck of the woods when two car Paddington-bound trains from from Greenford arrived on packed platforms at Ealing Broadway. I would extend the Tonbridge-Redhill shuttle through to Reigate. They can be timed to connnect with 8 car trains to Victoria at Redhill which begin at Gatwick. Perhaps the Victoria service could be semi-stopping north of Redhill whilst the Thameslink would pick up all stations or vice-versa. I don't understand why the Bedford-Three Bridges services need to call at South Croydon to be honest.
Until Windmill Bridge Junction gets its long overdue remodelling, a quick fix solution to reduce conflicts could be for one of the Redhill line or East Grinstead line to lose their services to Victoria. The CAT/TAT services load very poorly throughout the day which has led me to wonder whether a Southern service from London Bridge down to the Redhill line would be a better use of the paths. Caterham and Tattenham Corner could have shuttles to Purley off-peak which through services to Victoria in the peaks like they used to. The London Bridge-East Croydon via Tulse Hill services would have to be extended back to Caterham or Coulsdon town to serve South Croydon and Purley Oaks all day in lieu of these thuogh. Alternatively, you could have all day Thameslink services to East Grinstead, perhaps finally sacrificing the bizarre Rainham services (paths through Windmill Bridge permitting of course). The only issue is that if people's final destination is beyond London Bridge, then there's little incentive to take a Southern service which terminates there.
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