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Post by danorak on Mar 20, 2016 13:33:51 GMT
The Tower Hamlets document explains some of the thinking behind the recent proposals rather better than the consultation did (for example, the 108/D8 swap). It's a shame that more of this detail wasn't included or at least made easily available alongside.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 20, 2016 13:43:28 GMT
Reading the Newham one I think it would be a bit of a over kill running three routes from Custom House to Canning Town Via Keir Hardie - most buses on the 241 /147 run very light through this area. Also I am unsure of the demand for the mini bus stand and route extensions around Custom House Station again is there that much demand. I don't think the users of route 474 in the West Silvertown would be too impressed losing the route I know replacements have been suggested but still. I wonder if double decking the 325 would remove the need for 4 buses on route 678 as most of the route is duplicated by the 325. The 325 can't be double decked due to a height restriction by Jenkins Lane (billboard or advert is the offending piece of furniture). |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 13:56:02 GMT
Reading the Newham one I think it would be a bit of a over kill running three routes from Custom House to Canning Town Via Keir Hardie - most buses on the 241 /147 run very light through this area. Also I am unsure of the demand for the mini bus stand and route extensions around Custom House Station again is there that much demand. I don't think the users of route 474 in the West Silvertown would be too impressed losing the route I know replacements have been suggested but still. I wonder if double decking the 325 would remove the need for 4 buses on route 678 as most of the route is duplicated by the 325. The 325 can't be double decked due to a height restriction by Jenkins Lane (billboard or advert is the offending piece of furniture). You told this to me a little while back, but actually, on the Newham document, it actually says it is being considered. |
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Post by vjaska on Mar 20, 2016 13:57:27 GMT
The 417 extension proposal isn't that great TBH. Whilst it may give assistance to Queenstown Road & Nine Elms Lane and provide some areas with a new link to Waterloo, the reliability and heavy school traffic on the current routing could quite easily mess the route for those living south of Clapham Common. Also, now that the 452 and sadly, the 436, have been chosen to run along Wandsworth Road & Nine Elms Lane respectively, there's no need to supplement such an extension.
Personally, my old idea of extending the 417 to Clapham Junction is still the best idea. It gives much needed assistance to the 35 & 37 which are extremely busy over this section and isn't a particularly long extension so shouldn't cause too much issues.
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Post by danorak on Mar 20, 2016 14:50:50 GMT
Reading the Newham one I think it would be a bit of a over kill running three routes from Custom House to Canning Town Via Keir Hardie - most buses on the 241 /147 run very light through this area. Also I am unsure of the demand for the mini bus stand and route extensions around Custom House Station again is there that much demand. I don't think the users of route 474 in the West Silvertown would be too impressed losing the route I know replacements have been suggested but still. I wonder if double decking the 325 would remove the need for 4 buses on route 678 as most of the route is duplicated by the 325. The 325 can't be double decked due to a height restriction by Jenkins Lane (billboard or advert is the offending piece of furniture). Not familiar with the area but is this one of the billboards alongside the North Circular? As these documents seem to be looking long/medium term, I expect they have to examine the feasibility of double decking before they can discount it. If it's the spot I think from a look on Google Maps, they might be able to have the billboard shifted, or some build outs or a chicane put in to get buses away from the offending structure. They might even be able to move the road slightly! I expect it's something that it's not worth doing just to allow the occasional odd working at the moment. |
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 20, 2016 15:28:32 GMT
Thanks snoggle for the interesting read. The documents are a real eye opener into forward planning incorporating the changing travel patterns in conjunction with new housing opportunities. After a thorough reading of the South Newham report, post Crossrail these are the proposed changes in summary:
-better bus links south of the DLR line & Royal Albert Way to provide better access to students and workers in the area (UEL & 1000 Dockside)
-links between Gallions Reach and North Woolwich by rerouting/extending the 366 or 473. It is assumed both routes will not require change; only 1 option to be chosen
-route 104 to be split; 104 A from Stratford then divert from Lonsdale Avenue to serve the UEL area and terminate at West Silvertown. 104B from Manor Park will divert from Lonsdale Avenue to serve Newham hospital and Prince Regent Lane to a new stand at Custom House. Plans also include the 104B with decks to "duplicate 129 routing into North Greenwich."
-route 474 to be redirected to serve Custom House Crossrail, with the option of serving Canning Town either via Kier Hardie Estate or Freemasons Road
-route 330 to be extended via Silvertown Way to circumvent the Royal Docks area & terminate at new (interchange) stand at Custom House
-route 300 to be restructured to start at Custom House Crossrail and be extended to Stratford City via Capel Road and Forest Gate, in an attempt to retain links lost by the 104 proposal. The 474 proposal is also aimed at retaining lost 300 links west to Canning Town. Frequency increases to 5bh
-route 325 to gain extension to UEL area and the potential for double deck operation. Conversion spurred by predicted demand for Crossrail from Barking Road
-no changes to frequency but revised to terminate at Canning Town station if the 474 is to be routed via Kier Hardie Estate
-no changes to route structure, increase to 9bph (6-7 min frequency) to match expected demand from Barking Road to Custom House Crossrail.
Interesting to note the need along North Woolwich Way for 7.5bph in future so the 474 is excluded as a simple fix and new links added in the form of 330 and retained links from the East Ham area with 104B. The direct broken links are given the option of DLR to complete journeys; with the average 6 night journey links that are broken "negligible" to the study. The terms '104A' and '104B' used to illustrate different proposals along the route and is not indicative of the final numbering.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 20, 2016 15:35:16 GMT
The 325 can't be double decked due to a height restriction by Jenkins Lane (billboard or advert is the offending piece of furniture). Not familiar with the area but is this one of the billboards alongside the North Circular? As these documents seem to be looking long/medium term, I expect they have to examine the feasibility of double decking before they can discount it. If it's the spot I think from a look on Google Maps, they might be able to have the billboard shifted, or some build outs or a chicane put in to get buses away from the offending structure. They might even be able to move the road slightly! I expect it's something that it's not worth doing just to allow the occasional odd working at the moment. Yep, right by the North Circular Road just north of Jenkins Lane. |
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 20, 2016 15:44:45 GMT
Reading the Newham one I think it would be a bit of a over kill running three routes from Custom House to Canning Town Via Keir Hardie - most buses on the 241 /147 run very light through this area. Also I am unsure of the demand for the mini bus stand and route extensions around Custom House Station again is there that much demand. I don't think the users of route 474 in the West Silvertown would be too impressed losing the route I know replacements have been suggested but still. I wonder if double decking the 325 would remove the need for 4 buses on route 678 as most of the route is duplicated by the 325. The 325 can't be double decked due to a height restriction by Jenkins Lane (billboard or advert is the offending piece of furniture). Went to DX a few months ago for some lost luggage and overheard the drivers talking. It turns out their woes about the morning peaks being unbearable won't end anytime soon due to the routeing on Fresh Wharf estate (before Jenkins Lane). Similar to the 80, the 325 isn't decked due to security concerns as the Beckton bound stop sits right outside a Metropolitan Police base. The billboards removed at the end of summer last year. |
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 20, 2016 16:29:12 GMT
Reading the Newham one I think it would be a bit of a over kill running three routes from Custom House to Canning Town Via Keir Hardie - most buses on the 241 /147 run very light through this area. Also I am unsure of the demand for the mini bus stand and route extensions around Custom House Station again is there that much demand. I don't think the users of route 474 in the West Silvertown would be too impressed losing the route I know replacements have been suggested but still. I wonder if double decking the 325 would remove the need for 4 buses on route 678 as most of the route is duplicated by the 325. You were too focused with the bus changes my friend; the document started stating some 18,000 new residences to be eventually built in the South Newham area. This and Crossrail at Custom House is expected to change travel demand. To refer to your overkill statement, the engineering works for the Elizabeth line has brought unbelievable disruption and as a result of through services sometimes being altered at a drop of a hat; if a bus journey is not a necessity in that area then it will not be undertaken. I would like to be upset at the 474 changes but the rationale behind makes it hard for me to do that. Lose a route with the gaining of 330 and 104B, with the potential for the latter to be sent to North Greenwich? Seems perfectly logical to me. Don't like the option of sending it up Freemasons Road though; keep the N551 along that stretch to retain (now established lool) night links and let the 474 go via Kier Hardie. Barely a soul alights or boards the route in either direction on the N551. Considering the report blew TfL trumpets for the excellent service through the area (not even I can argue at that. Brava TfL) it does highlight the lack of housing when compared to other areas of Newham and indeed inner London being a factor in that fact. The report has made me realise that London is constantly growing; and you need to be proactive when planning for the future so by that logic, I don't think it's sensible to remove the 678 completely. Maybe decrease the PVR by1 but nothing too drastic. In addition, the section past Prince Regent is where the route is used most by the students from the Upton Lane schools. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 17:04:24 GMT
Reading the Newham one I think it would be a bit of a over kill running three routes from Custom House to Canning Town Via Keir Hardie - most buses on the 241 /147 run very light through this area. Also I am unsure of the demand for the mini bus stand and route extensions around Custom House Station again is there that much demand. I don't think the users of route 474 in the West Silvertown would be too impressed losing the route I know replacements have been suggested but still. I wonder if double decking the 325 would remove the need for 4 buses on route 678 as most of the route is duplicated by the 325. You were too focused with the bus changes my friend; the document started stating some 18,000 new residences to be eventually built in the South Newham area. This and Crossrail at Custom House is expected to change travel demand. To refer to your overkill statement, the engineering works for the Elizabeth line has brought unbelievable disruption and as a result of through services sometimes being altered at a drop of a hat; if a bus journey is not a necessity in that area then it will not be undertaken. I would like to be upset at the 474 changes but the rationale behind makes it hard for me to do that. Lose a route with the gaining of 330 and 104B, with the potential for the latter to be sent to North Greenwich? Seems perfectly logical to me. Don't like the option of sending it up Freemasons Road though; keep the N551 along that stretch to retain (now established lool) night links and let the 474 go via Kier Hardie. Barely a soul alights or boards the route in either direction on the N551. Considering the report blew TfL trumpets for the excellent service through the area (not even I can argue at that. Brava TfL) it does highlight the lack of housing when compared to other areas of Newham and indeed inner London being a factor in that fact. The report has made me realise that London is constantly growing; and you need to be proactive when planning for the future so by that logic, I don't think it's sensible to remove the 678 completely. Maybe decrease the PVR by1 but nothing too drastic. In addition, the section past Prince Regent is where the route is used most by the students from the Upton Lane schools. Not being rude but most of the flats being built in Canning Town are going for 350,000 for one bed flats if you can afford these you are unlikely to use buses and likely to use the DLR and Crossrail. Hardly any social housing is being built in Canning Town and Custom House. Anyway none of this is confirmed so let's see what happens. Also the N551 no longer serves Freemasons |
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Post by john on Mar 20, 2016 17:35:16 GMT
I'm wondering whether the 101 could be re - instated to North Woolwich. If I'm honest, I've never really seen it that busy to Gallions Reach. Yes I know running times, reliability etc will come into it, but could be a half decent option to look at.
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Post by enviroPB on Mar 20, 2016 17:44:29 GMT
I'm wondering whether the 101 could be re - instated to North Woolwich. If I'm honest, I've never really seen it that busy to Gallions Reach. Yes I know running times, reliability etc will come into it, but could be a half decent option to look at. If you ever saw the 101 departing Gallions Reach at any time during the day on Sunday, you'd know why that link is vital and shouldn't be changed. |
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Post by john on Mar 20, 2016 18:13:22 GMT
I'm wondering whether the 101 could be re - instated to North Woolwich. If I'm honest, I've never really seen it that busy to Gallions Reach. Yes I know running times, reliability etc will come into it, but could be a half decent option to look at. If you ever saw the 101 departing Gallions Reach at any time during the day on Sunday, you'd know why that link is vital and shouldn't be changed. This could be said of many routes of a Sunday really. You can't take into account one days loadings for a route over 7 days really. One counter could be to divert the 262 via Cyprus to retain a link. Alternatively extend the 325 from East Ham. There are ways to retain a link if needed. Tbh though I don't see the 101 being in TfL's plans for Crossrail. Seems some of the less established routes and more changed ones are more likely to be altered. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 18:34:17 GMT
Thanks snoggle for the interesting read. The documents are a real eye opener into forward planning incorporating the changing travel patterns in conjunction with new housing opportunities. After a thorough reading of the South Newham report, post Crossrail these are the proposed changes in summary: -better bus links south of the DLR line & Royal Albert Way to provide better access to students and workers in the area (UEL & 1000 Dockside) -links between Gallions Reach and North Woolwich by rerouting/extending the 366 or 473. It is assumed both routes will not require change; only 1 option to be chosen -route 104 to be split; 104 A from Stratford then divert from Lonsdale Avenue to serve the UEL area and terminate at West Silvertown. 104B from Manor Park will divert from Lonsdale Avenue to serve Newham hospital and Prince Regent Lane to a new stand at Custom House. Plans also include the 104B with decks to "duplicate 129 routing into North Greenwich." -route 474 to be redirected to serve Custom House Crossrail, with the option of serving Canning Town either via Kier Hardie Estate or Freemasons Road -route 330 to be extended via Silvertown Way to circumvent the Royal Docks area & terminate at new (interchange) stand at Custom House -route 300 to be restructured to start at Custom House Crossrail and be extended to Stratford City via Capel Road and Forest Gate, in an attempt to retain links lost by the 104 proposal. The 474 proposal is also aimed at retaining lost 300 links west to Canning Town. Frequency increases to 5bh -route 325 to gain extension to UEL area and the potential for double deck operation. Conversion spurred by predicted demand for Crossrail from Barking Road - Route 241 - no changes to frequency but revised to terminate at Canning Town station if the 474 is to be routed via Kier Hardie Estate - Route 147 - no changes to route structure, increase to 9bph (6-7 min frequency) to match expected demand from Barking Road to Custom House Crossrail. Interesting to note the need along North Woolwich Way for 7.5bph in future so the 474 is excluded as a simple fix and new links added in the form of 330 and retained links from the East Ham area with 104B. The direct broken links are given the option of DLR to complete journeys; with the average 6 night journey links that are broken "negligible" to the study. The terms '104A' and '104B' used to illustrate different proposals along the route and is not indicative of the final numbering. You forgot to add the routes for the last 2 points, so I've added the routes in the comments to not confuse people that much. Please note, route 474 does nothing to replace route 300, its more to provide a link to Custom House from London City Airport and North Woolwich. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 18:36:30 GMT
If you ever saw the 101 departing Gallions Reach at any time during the day on Sunday, you'd know why that link is vital and shouldn't be changed. This could be said of many routes of a Sunday really. You can't take into account one days loadings for a route over 7 days really. One counter could be to divert the 262 via Cyprus to retain a link. Alternatively extend the 325 from East Ham. There are ways to retain a link if needed. Tbh though I don't see the 101 being in TfL's plans for Crossrail. Seems some of the less established routes and more changed ones are more likely to be altered. The problem with rerouting the 262 is that there would be longer journeys, something that shoppers on the route wouldn't enjoy. What do you mean by extending route 325 from East Ham? The route doesn't terminate at East Ham. |
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