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Post by ADH45258 on Jan 17, 2024 15:13:55 GMT
I agree that some of these proposals don't make sense but I think it started with W12 requiring a frequency increase then LBWF not budging and things got out of hand. Also not easy to get short electrics. If TfL don't amend based on these responses then you are unlikely to amend anything. This one was genuinely not a consultation based on the LBWF stance. The required infrastructure changes is in Coppermill Lane to accommodate the new longer electrics. Things to note on report: - The forum gets a mention. Does that usually happen? - '358 coming soon.' But that has been the case for a while. This shows that they do notice what we are saying on here and are watching 👀 (Central London planned changes I'm sure some ideas came from here that they kept) they just don't listen overall . It's a shame because there were a lot of better alternatives suggested for the W12/W13/W14 consultation, and I'm sure local residents also would have raised concerns over some of the broken W12 links. These routes did need to be looked at, the infrequent 549 had room for improvment by incorporating into another route, and the W12 will benefit from having a higher frequency, plus the W13 is quite a short route so has scope for an extension. But a lot of established links will now be broken, particularly from Walthamstow to the area around the Central Line stations (Wanstead, South Woodford etc). For TFL's proposals to work they need one further change to cover those links, the W12 was never that direct anyway (plus low capacity/frequency), so something like a 357 extension would seem an ideal solution. Or alternatively just rework all of the proposals completely. Not sure though with what you say about the Central London consultation. The only changes that were really made (other than not going ahead with most of the proposals, and some renumberings such as keeping the 11) were the 6/98 swap. But in this case I think TFL's original version was better, as that would have maintained the 16's link from Victoria to Kilburn, rather than just to Maida Vale as the 6 does now (which just parallels the 36 more to Queens Park).
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Post by vjaska on Jan 17, 2024 16:30:50 GMT
This shows that they do notice what we are saying on here and are watching 👀 (Central London planned changes I'm sure some ideas came from here that they kept) they just don't listen overall . It's a shame because there were a lot of better alternatives suggested for the W12/W13/W14 consultation, and I'm sure local residents also would have raised concerns over some of the broken W12 links. These routes did need to be looked at, the infrequent 549 had room for improvment by incorporating into another route, and the W12 will benefit from having a higher frequency, plus the W13 is quite a short route so has scope for an extension. But a lot of established links will now be broken, particularly from Walthamstow to the area around the Central Line stations (Wanstead, South Woodford etc). For TFL's proposals to work they need one further change to cover those links, the W12 was never that direct anyway (plus low capacity/frequency), so something like a 357 extension would seem an ideal solution. Or alternatively just rework all of the proposals completely. Not sure though with what you say about the Central London consultation. The only changes that were really made (other than not going ahead with most of the proposals, and some renumberings such as keeping the 11) were the 6/98 swap. But in this case I think TFL's original version was better, as that would have maintained the 16's link from Victoria to Kilburn, rather than just to Maida Vale as the 6 does now (which just parallels the 36 more to Queens Park). The W12 wasn't designed to be direct though - the whole point of the W12 is to go around the houses to bring people away from the main roads. Not every route must be direct and not every short route must be extended either. I'd like to know from locals rather then me or you who don't live there whether the four routes did need looking at given two of the three W routes have kept their present routings since their creation bar the odd tiny diversion and the W14 has only been tweaked once or twice plus all three W routes presumably succeeded as two of the three shed minibuses for bigger single deckers as the years have gone on - W14 for instance has gone from breadvans to 10.8m DMV's. The 549 is different - this only became a TfL route in 2003 having been Essex's responsibility prior to this and having survived in some form since the 60's at least. It's gone from a half hourly route with an evening service to a route running every 1h 30 minutes with no evening service (the half hourly with evening service only ran between 2003-2005) so it's no wonder why many don't use it - had TfL maybe stuck with the 30 minute frequency and evening service and actually attempted to make it a success, things might be different.
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Post by ADH45258 on Jan 17, 2024 17:50:12 GMT
It's a shame because there were a lot of better alternatives suggested for the W12/W13/W14 consultation, and I'm sure local residents also would have raised concerns over some of the broken W12 links. These routes did need to be looked at, the infrequent 549 had room for improvment by incorporating into another route, and the W12 will benefit from having a higher frequency, plus the W13 is quite a short route so has scope for an extension. But a lot of established links will now be broken, particularly from Walthamstow to the area around the Central Line stations (Wanstead, South Woodford etc). For TFL's proposals to work they need one further change to cover those links, the W12 was never that direct anyway (plus low capacity/frequency), so something like a 357 extension would seem an ideal solution. Or alternatively just rework all of the proposals completely. Not sure though with what you say about the Central London consultation. The only changes that were really made (other than not going ahead with most of the proposals, and some renumberings such as keeping the 11) were the 6/98 swap. But in this case I think TFL's original version was better, as that would have maintained the 16's link from Victoria to Kilburn, rather than just to Maida Vale as the 6 does now (which just parallels the 36 more to Queens Park). The W12 wasn't designed to be direct though - the whole point of the W12 is to go around the houses to bring people away from the main roads. Not every route must be direct and not every short route must be extended either. While that is true, Walthamstow is the nearest major town centre for places around South Woodford, Snaresbrook and Wanstead - and the W12 is the only bus linking these areas to Walthamstow, before and after the changes take place. The current W12 is a bit indirect going around the hospital loop, but is still a viable option to get to Walthamstow, going via Snaresbrook Road keeps it relatively quick. But when it gets rerouted via Leytonstone, it will be even more indirect for such journeys.
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Post by WH241 on Jan 17, 2024 20:09:37 GMT
The W12 wasn't designed to be direct though - the whole point of the W12 is to go around the houses to bring people away from the main roads. Not every route must be direct and not every short route must be extended either. While that is true, Walthamstow is the nearest major town centre for places around South Woodford, Snaresbrook and Wanstead - and the W12 is the only bus linking these areas to Walthamstow, before and after the changes take place. The current W12 is a bit indirect going around the hospital loop, but is still a viable option to get to Walthamstow, going via Snaresbrook Road keeps it relatively quick. But when it gets rerouted via Leytonstone, it will be even more indirect for such journeys. Walthamstow might have been a draw back in the 1990s and early 2000s but probably not so much now. South Woodford has a smallish amount of shops but enough for most needs and they same with Leytonstone. Also places like Westfield would be a major draw which is within easy reach by tube.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 17, 2024 23:16:15 GMT
It's a shame because there were a lot of better alternatives suggested for the W12/W13/W14 consultation, and I'm sure local residents also would have raised concerns over some of the broken W12 links. These routes did need to be looked at, the infrequent 549 had room for improvment by incorporating into another route, and the W12 will benefit from having a higher frequency, plus the W13 is quite a short route so has scope for an extension. But a lot of established links will now be broken, particularly from Walthamstow to the area around the Central Line stations (Wanstead, South Woodford etc). For TFL's proposals to work they need one further change to cover those links, the W12 was never that direct anyway (plus low capacity/frequency), so something like a 357 extension would seem an ideal solution. Or alternatively just rework all of the proposals completely. Not sure though with what you say about the Central London consultation. The only changes that were really made (other than not going ahead with most of the proposals, and some renumberings such as keeping the 11) were the 6/98 swap. But in this case I think TFL's original version was better, as that would have maintained the 16's link from Victoria to Kilburn, rather than just to Maida Vale as the 6 does now (which just parallels the 36 more to Queens Park). The W12 wasn't designed to be direct though - the whole point of the W12 is to go around the houses to bring people away from the main roads. Not every route must be direct and not every short route must be extended either. I'd like to know from locals rather then me or you who don't live there whether the four routes did need looking at given two of the three W routes have kept their present routings since their creation bar the odd tiny diversion and the W14 has only been tweaked once or twice plus all three W routes presumably succeeded as two of the three shed minibuses for bigger single deckers as the years have gone on - W14 for instance has gone from breadvans to 10.8m DMV's. The 549 is different - this only became a TfL route in 2003 having been Essex's responsibility prior to this and having survived in some form since the 60's at least. It's gone from a half hourly route with an evening service to a route running every 1h 30 minutes with no evening service (the half hourly with evening service only ran between 2003-2005) so it's no wonder why many don't use it - had TfL maybe stuck with the 30 minute frequency and evening service and actually attempted to make it a success, things might be different. The 549 came about from the outgoing 249 operated by Arriva as a Essex County Council route and was West Coaches with Metroriders. IIRC they had Leyland Nationals before and when LT had a garage at Loughton, this was actually a London route. So it came back under London control again from TfL. Loading's were very sparce, it was used a lot by Epping Forest College students and station commuters. The loadings on the W12 dropping is a result of TfL, traffic, LBWF and a poor frequency of 30 mins. The W14 really did not warrant DMV's never really had the loadings for it. Even when it had 9.4m DM's or even at Arriva when we had the 9.4m ADL's I have never carried a bus so full having to leave people at the stop, even if the bus in front was missing! During the daytime the W14 was busier than the W13, the W13's biggest loadings were always mainly school kids loadings.
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Post by enviroPB on Jan 18, 2024 12:37:48 GMT
The W12 wasn't designed to be direct though - the whole point of the W12 is to go around the houses to bring people away from the main roads. Not every route must be direct and not every short route must be extended either. I'd like to know from locals rather then me or you who don't live there whether the four routes did need looking at given two of the three W routes have kept their present routings since their creation bar the odd tiny diversion and the W14 has only been tweaked once or twice plus all three W routes presumably succeeded as two of the three shed minibuses for bigger single deckers as the years have gone on - W14 for instance has gone from breadvans to 10.8m DMV's. The 549 is different - this only became a TfL route in 2003 having been Essex's responsibility prior to this and having survived in some form since the 60's at least. It's gone from a half hourly route with an evening service to a route running every 1h 30 minutes with no evening service (the half hourly with evening service only ran between 2003-2005) so it's no wonder why many don't use it - had TfL maybe stuck with the 30 minute frequency and evening service and actually attempted to make it a success, things might be different. The 549 came about from the outgoing 249 operated by Arriva as a Essex County Council route and was West Coaches with Metroriders. IIRC they had Leyland Nationals before and when LT had a garage at Loughton, this was actually a London route. So it came back under London control again from TfL. Loading's were very sparce, it was used a lot by Epping Forest College students and station commuters. The loadings on the W12 dropping is a result of TfL, traffic, LBWF and a poor frequency of 30 mins. The W14 really did not warrant DMV's never really had the loadings for it. Even when it had 9.4m DM's or even at Arriva when we had the 9.4m ADL's I have never carried a bus so full having to leave people at the stop, even if the bus in front was missing! During the daytime the W14 was busier than the W13, the W13's biggest loadings were always mainly school kids loadings. I was hoping someone would have mentioned the W14's DMVs only came about due to a cascade from the 308 as it converted to double deck (frequency increase on evenings and Sundays also happened at that time).
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Post by WH241 on Jan 18, 2024 13:01:19 GMT
The W12 wasn't designed to be direct though - the whole point of the W12 is to go around the houses to bring people away from the main roads. Not every route must be direct and not every short route must be extended either. I'd like to know from locals rather then me or you who don't live there whether the four routes did need looking at given two of the three W routes have kept their present routings since their creation bar the odd tiny diversion and the W14 has only been tweaked once or twice plus all three W routes presumably succeeded as two of the three shed minibuses for bigger single deckers as the years have gone on - W14 for instance has gone from breadvans to 10.8m DMV's. The 549 is different - this only became a TfL route in 2003 having been Essex's responsibility prior to this and having survived in some form since the 60's at least. It's gone from a half hourly route with an evening service to a route running every 1h 30 minutes with no evening service (the half hourly with evening service only ran between 2003-2005) so it's no wonder why many don't use it - had TfL maybe stuck with the 30 minute frequency and evening service and actually attempted to make it a success, things might be different. The 549 came about from the outgoing 249 operated by Arriva as a Essex County Council route and was West Coaches with Metroriders. IIRC they had Leyland Nationals before and when LT had a garage at Loughton, this was actually a London route. So it came back under London control again from TfL. Loading's were very sparce, it was used a lot by Epping Forest College students and station commuters. The loadings on the W12 dropping is a result of TfL, traffic, LBWF and a poor frequency of 30 mins. The W14 really did not warrant DMV's never really had the loadings for it. Even when it had 9.4m DM's or even at Arriva when we had the 9.4m ADL's I have never carried a bus so full having to leave people at the stop, even if the bus in front was missing! During the daytime the W14 was busier than the W13, the W13's biggest loadings were always mainly school kids loadings. You just gave me flashbacks to using the W14 is the late evening when it suffered frequent cuts to buses! This was back when it was Arriva from the Debden base.
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Post by joefrombow on Jan 18, 2024 13:46:30 GMT
The 549 came about from the outgoing 249 operated by Arriva as a Essex County Council route and was West Coaches with Metroriders. IIRC they had Leyland Nationals before and when LT had a garage at Loughton, this was actually a London route. So it came back under London control again from TfL. Loading's were very sparce, it was used a lot by Epping Forest College students and station commuters. The loadings on the W12 dropping is a result of TfL, traffic, LBWF and a poor frequency of 30 mins. The W14 really did not warrant DMV's never really had the loadings for it. Even when it had 9.4m DM's or even at Arriva when we had the 9.4m ADL's I have never carried a bus so full having to leave people at the stop, even if the bus in front was missing! During the daytime the W14 was busier than the W13, the W13's biggest loadings were always mainly school kids loadings. You just gave me flashbacks to using the W14 is the late evening when it suffered frequent cuts to buses! This was back when it was Arriva from the Debden base. Many a time I remember riding on a "Express" W14 running from Leytonstone chucking a left off of Green Man and straight up Hermon Hill to Woodford Bridge but stopping at the stops I'm assuming due to late running would never happen now days , I also believe the J reg "Breadvans" were the last Manual with a clutch buses operated in London don't think they ever got Arriva Livery, they were then replaced by newer automatic ones from the W15 when that got it darts which had Arriva London Livery , then the East Herts & Essex Darts came later on .
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Post by mkay315 on Jan 18, 2024 16:00:22 GMT
The 549 came about from the outgoing 249 operated by Arriva as a Essex County Council route and was West Coaches with Metroriders. IIRC they had Leyland Nationals before and when LT had a garage at Loughton, this was actually a London route. So it came back under London control again from TfL. Loading's were very sparce, it was used a lot by Epping Forest College students and station commuters. The loadings on the W12 dropping is a result of TfL, traffic, LBWF and a poor frequency of 30 mins. The W14 really did not warrant DMV's never really had the loadings for it. Even when it had 9.4m DM's or even at Arriva when we had the 9.4m ADL's I have never carried a bus so full having to leave people at the stop, even if the bus in front was missing! During the daytime the W14 was busier than the W13, the W13's biggest loadings were always mainly school kids loadings. You just gave me flashbacks to using the W14 is the late evening when it suffered frequent cuts to buses! This was back when it was Arriva from the Debden base. 😂😂😂😂 Oh shxt you really took it all the way back there in time 😂😂😂😂
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Post by WH241 on Jan 18, 2024 20:28:19 GMT
Sorry if a daft question but assume the revised W14 will double run at South Woodford station? the maps are really not very clear.
Scrap that - The answer is in the report.
W14: How will buses turn at South Woodford In order to serve South Woodford Station, route W14 will operate in both directions via George Lane, Mulberry Way, Daisy Road, Cowslip Road and George Lane back into line of route
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Post by mkay315 on Jan 18, 2024 22:57:48 GMT
Sorry if a daft question but assume the revised W14 will double run at South Woodford station? the maps are really not very clear.
Scrap that - The answer is in the report.
W14: How will buses turn at South Woodford In order to serve South Woodford Station, route W14 will operate in both directions via George Lane, Mulberry Way, Daisy Road, Cowslip Road and George Lane back into line of route
I would assume so looking at the map.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 18, 2024 23:14:17 GMT
The 549 came about from the outgoing 249 operated by Arriva as a Essex County Council route and was West Coaches with Metroriders. IIRC they had Leyland Nationals before and when LT had a garage at Loughton, this was actually a London route. So it came back under London control again from TfL. Loading's were very sparce, it was used a lot by Epping Forest College students and station commuters. The loadings on the W12 dropping is a result of TfL, traffic, LBWF and a poor frequency of 30 mins. The W14 really did not warrant DMV's never really had the loadings for it. Even when it had 9.4m DM's or even at Arriva when we had the 9.4m ADL's I have never carried a bus so full having to leave people at the stop, even if the bus in front was missing! During the daytime the W14 was busier than the W13, the W13's biggest loadings were always mainly school kids loadings. You just gave me flashbacks to using the W14 is the late evening when it suffered frequent cuts to buses! This was back when it was Arriva from the Debden base. I remember it always being every 30 minutes. I would have to go back through old timetables. I think it then in the 2000's got increased to 20 mins in the evenings.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 18, 2024 23:16:21 GMT
You just gave me flashbacks to using the W14 is the late evening when it suffered frequent cuts to buses! This was back when it was Arriva from the Debden base. Many a time I remember riding on a "Express" W14 running from Leytonstone chucking a left off of Green Man and straight up Hermon Hill to Woodford Bridge but stopping at the stops I'm assuming due to late running would never happen now days , I also believe the J reg "Breadvans" were the last Manual with a clutch buses operated in London don't think they ever got Arriva Livery, they were then replaced by newer automatic ones from the W15 when that got it darts which had Arriva London Livery , then the East Herts & Essex Darts came later on . A lot of routes used to do things like that without the mileage being logged. When everything got logged via ibus, it was not as easy for operators to pull stunts like this. It can be done, but then it would have to be recorded and they may be no benefit whatsoever if it does not close a gap in the service.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Jan 19, 2024 1:56:24 GMT
You just gave me flashbacks to using the W14 is the late evening when it suffered frequent cuts to buses! This was back when it was Arriva from the Debden base. Many a time I remember riding on a "Express" W14 running from Leytonstone chucking a left off of Green Man and straight up Hermon Hill to Woodford Bridge but stopping at the stops I'm assuming due to late running would never happen now days , I also believe the J reg "Breadvans" were the last Manual with a clutch buses operated in London don't think they ever got Arriva Livery, they were then replaced by newer automatic ones from the W15 when that got it darts which had Arriva London Livery , then the East Herts & Essex Darts came later on . I had that a few times, think it was when the A12 upgrade works were taking place between Wanstead Station and the Green Man roundabout. Occasionally, drivers would also turn round at Woodford Bridge, rather than go into Claybury Hospital. The W14 was always one of my "go-to" routes when it had the J-reg Mercedes Breadvans, although Darts from the Townlink commercial routes often made appearances on the route as well. I think it only ever happened once or twice (perhaps locals will know more) but the Lynxs also appeared on the W14, which were certainly an upgrade from the 709Ds.
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Post by capitalomnibus on Jan 20, 2024 3:10:45 GMT
Many a time I remember riding on a "Express" W14 running from Leytonstone chucking a left off of Green Man and straight up Hermon Hill to Woodford Bridge but stopping at the stops I'm assuming due to late running would never happen now days , I also believe the J reg "Breadvans" were the last Manual with a clutch buses operated in London don't think they ever got Arriva Livery, they were then replaced by newer automatic ones from the W15 when that got it darts which had Arriva London Livery , then the East Herts & Essex Darts came later on . I had that a few times, think it was when the A12 upgrade works were taking place between Wanstead Station and the Green Man roundabout. Occasionally, drivers would also turn round at Woodford Bridge, rather than go into Claybury Hospital. The W14 was always one of my "go-to" routes when it had the J-reg Mercedes Breadvans, although Darts from the Townlink commercial routes often made appearances on the route as well. I think it only ever happened once or twice (perhaps locals will know more) but the Lynxs also appeared on the W14, which were certainly an upgrade from the 709Ds. In early years they were strict with allocation it was mainly the J reg 709D's with odd workings with the route 505 G reg 709D's. We then also got the Optare City Pacers from the 505 and a few years later the Iveco minibuses making odd workings. A few years into the contract then some Plaxton Pointer Dennis Darts made odd workings then after the take-over of West Coaches some of their buses used to appear on the route making odd workings. Their MCW Metroriders from the 249 made odd-workings and bought back memories of the W12. Some of the Wright bodied Darts made odd-workings. I would also never forgot a few times years later the route 66 Leyland Lynx odd workings or when W15 was changed the 811D's were used on the route.
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