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Post by snoggle on Oct 15, 2015 9:41:33 GMT
No not the annual debate but the fact that TfL have produced a paper on the subject which goes to next week's Surface Transport Panel. Looks like the basic conclusion is "not value for money" given the basic analysis undertaken so far. Clearly the decision about whether to do more work is being left to the Panel members to decide. content.tfl.gov.uk/stp-20151022-part-1-item13-christmas-day-bus-services.pdf
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Post by rambo on Oct 15, 2015 21:17:22 GMT
It will come eventually......
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Post by riverside on Oct 16, 2015 10:49:56 GMT
The fact that New York and Paris can run Christmas Day services rather puts London to shame. Nobody expects a full Sunday service to operate, such a level of service never operated in the past when LT ran buses on Christmas Day. A reduced Sunday service should be sufficient but not on every single route. Somehow in the past LT managed to publicise services. Nowadays there are many more ways to get information to the public so I don't think publicity should be a problem.
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Post by John tuthill on Oct 16, 2015 11:04:58 GMT
The fact that New York and Paris can run Christmas Day services rather puts London to shame. Nobody expects a full Sunday service to operate, such a level of service never operated in the past when LT ran buses on Christmas Day. A reduced Sunday service should be sufficient but not on every single route. Somehow in the past LT managed to publicise services. Nowadays there are many more ways to get information to the public so I don't think publicity should be a problem. I'm old enough to remember when buses and UG ran on Christmas Day, usually started about 09:30, and ran 'til about 16:30. One of the reasons given for dropping the services was the growth in car ownership
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Post by sid on Oct 16, 2015 11:46:11 GMT
The fact that New York and Paris can run Christmas Day services rather puts London to shame. Nobody expects a full Sunday service to operate, such a level of service never operated in the past when LT ran buses on Christmas Day. A reduced Sunday service should be sufficient but not on every single route. Somehow in the past LT managed to publicise services. Nowadays there are many more ways to get information to the public so I don't think publicity should be a problem. I don't disagree with you at all but the issue is how to decide who gets a service and who doesn't, inevitably somebody isn't going to be happy!
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Post by towerman on Oct 16, 2015 12:28:25 GMT
The fact that New York and Paris can run Christmas Day services rather puts London to shame. Nobody expects a full Sunday service to operate, such a level of service never operated in the past when LT ran buses on Christmas Day. A reduced Sunday service should be sufficient but not on every single route. Somehow in the past LT managed to publicise services. Nowadays there are many more ways to get information to the public so I don't think publicity should be a problem. I'm old enough to remember when buses and UG ran on Christmas Day, usually started about 09:30, and ran 'til about 16:30. One of the reasons given for dropping the services was the growth in car ownership Can remember even further back both buses & tube ran from approx 8am to 10:30 pm.
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Post by LX09FBJ on Oct 16, 2015 15:36:01 GMT
Perhaps a limited Piccadilly line, LHR bus services and maybe something on the lines of the Sulivans/Reading Buses service used on tube strikes to and from the airport to Hammersmith (albeit extended to Victoria) could be viable on Christmas Day but that's about it.
One thing that I think would be beneficial would be to run night buses throughout the night on the night of the 24th/25th to get people who go out at night on Christmas Eve home. I remember TOLST operated some services a few years back.
I imagine there would be understandable opposition from staff and unions.
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Post by schedcomp on Oct 16, 2015 16:58:53 GMT
Perhaps a limited Piccadilly line, LHR bus services and maybe something on the lines of the Sulivans/Reading Buses service used on tube strikes to and from the airport to Hammersmith (albeit extended to Victoria) could be viable on Christmas Day but that's about it. One thing that I think would be beneficial would be to run night buses throughout the night on the night of the 24th/25th to get people who go out at night on Christmas Eve home. I remember TOLST operated some services a few years back. I imagine there would be understandable opposition from staff and unions. Various people have banded about the benefit of running night bus routes during the day on Xmas Day. This would ensure all the major corridors are served between say 830 & 1900. Regarding Xmas eve night, demand would probably be less than on Xmas Day. Besides all non-24 hour bus routes run till last bus on the 24th, some of which are at 2am Xmas day.
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Post by rambo on Oct 16, 2015 19:52:43 GMT
What would the drivers be paid? Once a limited service is run on xmas day, then that opens the floodgates. New driver will be told that xmas day is a normal bank holiday and the slippery slope begins.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 16, 2015 21:24:31 GMT
What would the drivers be paid? Once a limited service is run on xmas day, then that opens the floodgates. New driver will be told that xmas day is a normal bank holiday and the slippery slope begins. We don't know because TfL have withheld their assumptions about costs. That must include a view about the likely pay rate to attract / compensate enough staff. We also have no idea about the relationship between service level and the likely need to compel staff to work that day rather than being able to run it with volunteers. These must be the crucial issues that make it difficult to get a business case that works. I note that Caroline Pidgeon, Lib Dem Assembly Member, has suggested TfL seek sponsorship for a Christmas Day bus service. My view is that TfL should pilot a limited service at Christmas 2016 using volunteer drivers and fitters / controllers. They will then at least some evidence as to how it runs, what the practical issues are and whether the public will use it. It won't be wholly representative but with some suitable promotion in the relevant areas then there might be a basis to proceed or not with a wider scheme. I'm sure you're right about how the bus companies would change T&Cs if a more comprehensive service was to be run. If you ran half hourly services on say the 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 16, 18, 25, 29, 31, 38, 43, 47, 53, 55, 63, 68, 73, 113, 137, 140, 148, 159, 188, 207 and 285 then that would cover a fair mix of the Central area plus key corridors and Heathrow. It's not ideal but it's a start of some coverage - I'm sure I've missed various links but you can't cover everywhere.
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Post by thesquirrels on Oct 16, 2015 21:58:30 GMT
What would the drivers be paid? Once a limited service is run on xmas day, then that opens the floodgates. New driver will be told that xmas day is a normal bank holiday and the slippery slope begins. We don't know because TfL have withheld their assumptions about costs. That must include a view about the likely pay rate to attract / compensate enough staff. We also have no idea about the relationship between service level and the likely need to compel staff to work that day rather than being able to run it with volunteers. These must be the crucial issues that make it difficult to get a business case that works. I note that Caroline Pidgeon, Lib Dem Assembly Member, has suggested TfL seek sponsorship for a Christmas Day bus service. My view is that TfL should pilot a limited service at Christmas 2016 using volunteer drivers and fitters / controllers. They will then at least some evidence as to how it runs, what the practical issues are and whether the public will use it. It won't be wholly representative but with some suitable promotion in the relevant areas then there might be a basis to proceed or not with a wider scheme. I'm sure you're right about how the bus companies would change T&Cs if a more comprehensive service was to be run. If you ran half hourly services on say the 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 16, 18, 25, 29, 31, 38, 43, 47, 53, 55, 63, 68, 73, 113, 137, 140, 148, 159, 188, 207 and 285 then that would cover a fair mix of the Central area plus key corridors and Heathrow. It's not ideal but it's a start of some coverage - I'm sure I've missed various links but you can't cover everywhere. I'd go slightly further with that list and throw in a few busier 'non-core' routes in areas with large Muslim or other non-christian populations who want to go about their business. H32, 115, 120. Possibly three or four buses an hour on the 207. I do worry that if a pilot is run one year then it will immediately become an expected thing that TfL won't be able to back down on in subsequent years, then obligations become placed on staff and frictions with unions start. Once you prod that boulder and it starts rolling down the hill, it isn't going to stop again. I think TfL would need to be pretty sure it intends to run services as a rule on Xmas day before it does the pilot, then uses the data gained as a way to plan subsequent years.
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Post by snoggle on Oct 16, 2015 22:05:26 GMT
We don't know because TfL have withheld their assumptions about costs. That must include a view about the likely pay rate to attract / compensate enough staff. We also have no idea about the relationship between service level and the likely need to compel staff to work that day rather than being able to run it with volunteers. These must be the crucial issues that make it difficult to get a business case that works. I note that Caroline Pidgeon, Lib Dem Assembly Member, has suggested TfL seek sponsorship for a Christmas Day bus service. My view is that TfL should pilot a limited service at Christmas 2016 using volunteer drivers and fitters / controllers. They will then at least some evidence as to how it runs, what the practical issues are and whether the public will use it. It won't be wholly representative but with some suitable promotion in the relevant areas then there might be a basis to proceed or not with a wider scheme. I'm sure you're right about how the bus companies would change T&Cs if a more comprehensive service was to be run. If you ran half hourly services on say the 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 16, 18, 25, 29, 31, 38, 43, 47, 53, 55, 63, 68, 73, 113, 137, 140, 148, 159, 188, 207 and 285 then that would cover a fair mix of the Central area plus key corridors and Heathrow. It's not ideal but it's a start of some coverage - I'm sure I've missed various links but you can't cover everywhere. I'd go slightly further with that list and throw in a few busier 'non-core' routes in areas with large Muslim or other non-christian populations who want to go about their business. H32, 115, 120. Possibly three or four buses an hour on the 207. I do worry that if a pilot is run one year then it will immediately become an expected thing that TfL won't be able to back down on in subsequent years, then obligations become placed on staff and frictions with unions start. Once you prod that boulder and it starts rolling down the hill, it isn't going to stop again. I think TfL would need to be pretty sure it intends to run services as a rule on Xmas day before it does the pilot, then uses the data gained as a way to plan subsequent years. And the counterbalance to your perfectly reasonable argument is that if you never try a trial and the issue just gets dismissed as being "unviable" then the issue never goes away because TfL can always be accused of never having any meaningful evidence on which to base their conclusion. You can't keep proclaiming you're some super duper world beating transport organisation that supports all Londoners and economic activity and then provide no transport service on Christmas Day. With increasing numbers of car less households then it does get harder and harder to maintain a position of "no service".
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Post by mondraker275 on Oct 17, 2015 10:14:17 GMT
Chicken and Egg situation. Is there little demand, because there's no supply? or is there no supply because there's little demand? Would shops open, theaters and sporting events take place on Christmas day if there was a service, like other cities? I think they would.
Personally, they should provide a service. Looking at the paper, a ratio of 2:1, looks far off at the moment. But the research technique for assessing demand is OK with me. They should look and see the traffic levels on christmas day as well as the night tube economy's change as a result of a new service. They could also look at the hire bike usage (which is free on Christmas day I think). A survey of shops and businesses would be good as well.
There should be no trial. They should just go and run a service for 5 years, and review the situation.
P.S. If a purchase a month travelcard in December, its kind of wrong that I cannot use it on Christmas day.
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Post by stuckonthe486 on Oct 31, 2015 16:04:17 GMT
Seems perverse to be worrying about Christmas Day when services on ordinary Sundays are already heaving.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2015 8:30:50 GMT
It's all about money really. As in understand it, most companies would have to pay enhanced rates. So the operators would likely argue that to provide a service on a TfL contracted route, the costs would increase the tender bids. There is limited incentive to provide a commercial service unless you are guaranteed of a good return of sale, such as on the airport express routes that do run on a limited basis.
My personal opinion is that TfL should actually be obliged to run a service for Londoners over that day simply because they are in total control of most public transport in London, it is a major capital city, there are many many tourists resident in London on that day, the airports open normally (except for domestic flights which are limited) , so there is a demand, not to mention the public sector workers who keep the country going who are compelled to work on this "sacred" day no matter their religion or way of life.
Working on the basis that demand will come from these areas, plus certain quarters of London that are made up of communities that don't particularly celebrate the day itself, you could create a network of routes that would be viable.
It would help the operators as well, because I believe some garages end up shuffling buses around simply because they can't all fit into their sheds at the same time.
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