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Post by sid on Jan 3, 2016 14:54:45 GMT
While it might seem a great idea to combine routes, how would passengers and/or drivers know where the bus would stop? I remember when the 1 had a Boxing Day extension to Bromley Garage, people didn't know which stop to wait at in Bromley High Street. I did witness some people miss the bus because they were waiting at the 'logical' stop i.e. the one towards Lewisham. A driver decided to stop at the other one - and didn't wait for them to run up the road. So they had 30 minutes to wait - still with the uncertainty of knowing where the next one would stop. There was a one-day Boxing Day '211' route in the Orpington area - again nothing on any stops. Probably best to keep it simple - it you really want people to use buses on Christmas Day better not to confuse them. Ted B There's no reason why buses can't change route number mid journey as happens elsewhere in the UK. For example a 159 to Streatham becomes a 109 to Croydon when it gets to Brixton and going the other way a 109 to Brixton becomes a 159 to Marble Arch when it gets to Streatham, should avoid any confusion.
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Post by ibus246 on Jan 3, 2016 15:05:52 GMT
Why would the 726 need to serve every stop on the line of route? Are you suggesting renumbering the X26 for the one day only? The alternative is three separate routes, 407,213 and 285. Look at the cost element - buses will have to be blinded etc... Bus stop publicity updated (?) reflecting that change etc... If TfL were going to run buses on Christmas Day I think they should just run routes which are already established, that passengers are aware of with no enhancement - yes by all mean reduce the service level but all this route combining, changing route numbers halfway from an enthusiasts POV seems perfectly logical, from an ordinary bus users view, I think it would look quite chaotic and messy with Chais reigning supreme on Christmas Day itself!
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Post by sid on Jan 3, 2016 15:12:22 GMT
The alternative is three separate routes, 407,213 and 285. Look at the cost element - buses will have to be blinded etc... Bus stop publicity updated (?) reflecting that change etc... If TfL were going to run buses on Christmas Day I think they should just run routes which are already established, that passengers are aware of with no enhancement - yes by all mean reduce the service level but all this route combining, changing route numbers halfway from an enthusiasts POV seems perfectly logical, from an ordinary bus users view, I think it would look quite chaotic and messy with Chais reigning supreme on Christmas Day itself! Not at all, these arrangements exist in other areas and don't cause any confusion at all. I mean if you get on a 159 going to Streatham and it changes to a 109 to Croydon at Brixton how is that confusing? The bus is still going where it was originally. If anything it confuses people more turning the bus at Kennington or whatever because of late running or no driver etc. Many bus stops have PID's anyway telling intending passengers what's coming.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 3, 2016 15:17:01 GMT
Why would the 726 need to serve every stop on the line of route? Are you suggesting renumbering the X26 for the one day only? The alternative is three separate routes, 407,213 and 285. No, the alternative is already there - the X26.
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Post by sid on Jan 3, 2016 15:20:01 GMT
The alternative is three separate routes, 407,213 and 285. No, the alternative is already there - the X26. But obviously the X26 is limited stop.
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Post by ibus246 on Jan 3, 2016 15:21:29 GMT
Look at the cost element - buses will have to be blinded etc... Bus stop publicity updated (?) reflecting that change etc... If TfL were going to run buses on Christmas Day I think they should just run routes which are already established, that passengers are aware of with no enhancement - yes by all mean reduce the service level but all this route combining, changing route numbers halfway from an enthusiasts POV seems perfectly logical, from an ordinary bus users view, I think it would look quite chaotic and messy with Chais reigning supreme on Christmas Day itself! Not at all, these arrangements exist in other areas and don't cause any confusion at all. I mean if you get on a 159 going to Streatham and it changes to a 109 to Croydon at Brixton how is that confusing? The bus is still going where it was originally. If anything it confuses people more turning the bus at Kennington or whatever because of late running or no driver etc. Many bus stops have PID's anyway telling intending passengers what's coming. Ok - so what if the routes you've mentioned were not both ran by Abellio? Think of all the extra driver training needed, blinds updates, publicity updates, website updates and so on. A total waste of money to provide a service on one day. Yes it happens in other parts of the country but it happens 364 days a year thus passengers being used to it. You are wanting it to happen on ONE day a year thus not the norm.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 3, 2016 15:21:48 GMT
Look at the cost element - buses will have to be blinded etc... Bus stop publicity updated (?) reflecting that change etc... If TfL were going to run buses on Christmas Day I think they should just run routes which are already established, that passengers are aware of with no enhancement - yes by all mean reduce the service level but all this route combining, changing route numbers halfway from an enthusiasts POV seems perfectly logical, from an ordinary bus users view, I think it would look quite chaotic and messy with Chais reigning supreme on Christmas Day itself! Not at all, these arrangements exist in other areas and don't cause any confusion at all. I mean if you get on a 159 going to Streatham and it changes to a 109 to Croydon at Brixton how is that confusing? The bus is still going where it was originally. If anything it confuses people more turning the bus at Kennington or whatever because of late running or no driver etc. Many bus stops have PID's anyway telling intending passengers what's coming. I can see what 'ibus246' & 'Ted B' are saying and TBH, they are good points (certainly something I didn't think of before doing my core network) - let's take the 109 & 159 for example. A blind change system would work if they share the same bus stops but they don't at Streatham Station - the 109 serves the stops on Streatham High Road whilst the 159 turns off into the stands next to Tesco.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 3, 2016 15:23:33 GMT
No, the alternative is already there - the X26. But obviously the X26 is limited stop. Then carry it on as a limited stopping arrangement and run the other routes - run all four at an hourly frequency and you'll have a 30 minute frequency on the main sections.
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Post by sid on Jan 3, 2016 15:46:46 GMT
Not at all, these arrangements exist in other areas and don't cause any confusion at all. I mean if you get on a 159 going to Streatham and it changes to a 109 to Croydon at Brixton how is that confusing? The bus is still going where it was originally. If anything it confuses people more turning the bus at Kennington or whatever because of late running or no driver etc. Many bus stops have PID's anyway telling intending passengers what's coming. Ok - so what if the routes you've mentioned were not both ran by Abellio? Think of all the extra driver training needed, blinds updates, publicity updates, website updates and so on. A total waste of money to provide a service on one day. Yes it happens in other parts of the country but it happens 364 days a year thus passengers being used to it. You are wanting it to happen on ONE day a year thus not the norm. You're just looking for problems that aren't there, what do you think used to happen on Boxing Days? What would be a total waste of money is running excessive buses that aren't needed just to keep things 'simple'! It would make the whole thing totally unviable.
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Post by snoggle on Jan 3, 2016 15:51:36 GMT
While it might seem a great idea to combine routes, how would passengers and/or drivers know where the bus would stop? I remember when the 1 had a Boxing Day extension to Bromley Garage, people didn't know which stop to wait at in Bromley High Street. I did witness some people miss the bus because they were waiting at the 'logical' stop i.e. the one towards Lewisham. A driver decided to stop at the other one - and didn't wait for them to run up the road. So they had 30 minutes to wait - still with the uncertainty of knowing where the next one would stop. There was a one-day Boxing Day '211' route in the Orpington area - again nothing on any stops. Probably best to keep it simple - it you really want people to use buses on Christmas Day better not to confuse them. Ted B How did passengers cope in the 90s when routes had extensions on Boxing Day. Must have had a melt down when a yellow bus turned up instead of a red one for example on the 277 or 22b. Wild guess - some coped, some were confused and missed the bus, some didn't bother at all. People were also more used to multi coloured buses back then. I suspect the present day operation of running existing services but to Sunday frequencies with a later start is more successful if only because there's no great learning curve for passengers. If you have variants to the normal then you do get in to a whole pile of extra cost. There is the publicity, web information, bus stop info, I-Bus and Countdown, driver and supervisor briefing / awareness, Centrecomm awareness, what do you do about blinds if the normal buses don't have the routes? These things are surmountable but there is a cost involved and we already know there is no business case so why would you opt for a solution that tips more cost into the equation and thus worsens the case? Worse you may dilute the benefit side if people would be confused about the services on offer and opt not to use the services on offer. There aren't easy choices here as evidenced by the fact TfL have evaluated three service level options.
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Post by stubag on Jan 3, 2016 16:56:42 GMT
No matter what services you could introduce. It all comes down to cost. Ibus controllers on x3 the daily rate, engineering on again x3 the daily rate, drivers and counter staff, Centrecom staff again on inflated wages. And as the service was not tendered to operate on the day, operating companies would have to "charge" TFL the additional costs. And as budgets are being stretched anyway can't see it happening. Also if you start with the bus then the tube would be a better option serves a greater area, but the unions can't agree on the night tube, let alone a Xmas day tube.
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Post by ibus246 on Jan 3, 2016 21:01:12 GMT
How did passengers cope in the 90s when routes had extensions on Boxing Day. Must have had a melt down when a yellow bus turned up instead of a red one for example on the 277 or 22b. Wild guess - some coped, some were confused and missed the bus, some didn't bother at all. People were also more used to multi coloured buses back then. I suspect the present day operation of running existing services but to Sunday frequencies with a later start is more successful if only because there's no great learning curve for passengers. If you have variants to the normal then you do get in to a whole pile of extra cost. There is the publicity, web information, bus stop info, I-Bus and Countdown, driver and supervisor briefing / awareness, Centrecomm awareness, what do you do about blinds if the normal buses don't have the routes? These things are surmountable but there is a cost involved and we already know there is no business case so why would you opt for a solution that tips more cost into the equation and thus worsens the case? Worse you may dilute the benefit side if people would be confused about the services on offer and opt not to use the services on offer. There aren't easy choices here as evidenced by the fact TfL have evaluated three service level options. You can always rely on 'Snoggle' to sum up the case perfectly
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Post by rambo on Jan 3, 2016 21:33:45 GMT
Personally, I would not like any bus services on Christmas Day. Transport workers especially the London bus workers work d*mn hard all year to provide and maintain a good level of service on all days of the year. One day out of the year where everyone can relax with their families and friends should be guaranteed. And so do NHS staff, Environment Agency staff etc. but they can't just shut up shop on Christmas Day Completely different, there are no alternatives.
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Post by sid on Jan 4, 2016 12:29:27 GMT
And so do NHS staff, Environment Agency staff etc. but they can't just shut up shop on Christmas Day Completely different, there are no alternatives. Just as there are no alternatives for people without a car who need to get somewhere
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Post by snoggle on Jan 4, 2016 15:59:52 GMT
Completely different, there are no alternatives. Just as there are no alternatives for people without a car who need to get somewhere There are alternatives. How palatable, practical or affordable they are is open to debate. People can walk, cycle, arrange a lift, take a taxi or minicab, hire a vehicle etc. As I said there are issues with each of these but they exist. We don't have an alternative fire service, most only have access to the NHS and there is only one police force and armed services. The alternative to those services not being provided is death, injury and crime which would not be acceptable to the electorate.
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