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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2015 22:50:33 GMT
It's time this nonsense is put to rest. A bus service runs on the ISLE OF WIGHT on Christmas Day, so why not London ?. It's time TfL took their heads out of their arses and get this put right for 2016. I don't think this comparison is entirely fair - the decision by Southern Vectis to run a Christmas Day service was a managerial one at a local level in response to a clear demand. It's a small and easy network to provide and operate, only needs a handful of drivers and perhaps a couple of back office staff, and special higher fares are charged. I'm sure it was on the former (and very good) bus blog centred on Bournemouth (name escapes me now) that it was stated the Christmas Day services run on the IoW broke even in its trial year, hence the continued provision - I think this is the third or fourth year now. As far as I'm aware the rest of the Go-Ahead group companies in the South* haven't touched the concept with a barge pole. It did plenty for the sector's image and scored a lot of goodwill points, and continues to do so. It was a sensible commercial decision. The problem with London is that you can't do micro-level decisions like that. It would be lovely if Centrewest (as was) had decided to run the 207/607 and a handful of the E/U routes round Ealing and Uxbridge on Xmas day, the 105 into the Airport, etc, taking a commercial risk with special fares, but in the current TfL climate you would never see anything like that get the green light in a million years. It's all (at least in area terms) or nothing and the leap is a much bigger one. And with standard fares the network would probably lose more money than on a normal day, unless staff costs were somehow kept down (find me bus drivers who want to work for time and a half or less on xmas day and maybe we can get somewhere). * The one exceptionI can think of being Metrobus at Gatwick with the fastway 20. There are thousands of people who have to work Christmas day anyway. Many pubs open up, mainly for lunch. Many local shops open. Sick people in the capitals hospitals are sat there hoping for visits. Hotels, the capitals three main airports are all fully functional. Predicted travel patterns can be scoped out and a network of routes can be run. I recall the Airbus operated on Christmas day for several years. It was just the A1 and during the morning it was packed. It's very easy to fall back on the arguement of high costs and lack of drivers. They are valid points, but TfL should be obliged to run some key services across all London boroughs. It is their duty to do so.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 30, 2015 23:25:09 GMT
There are thousands of people who have to work Christmas day anyway. Many pubs open up, mainly for lunch. Many local shops open. Sick people in the capitals hospitals are sat there hoping for visits. Hotels, the capitals three main airports are all fully functional. Predicted travel patterns can be scoped out and a network of routes can be run. I recall the Airbus operated on Christmas day for several years. It was just the A1 and during the morning it was packed. It's very easy to fall back on the arguement of high costs and lack of drivers. They are valid points, but TfL should be obliged to run some key services across all London boroughs. It is their duty to do so. In respect of the bus network this is what the GLA Act says. Note the references to "economic" in sub clause 1 and also the "as far as reasonably practicable" provision in sub clause 5. Both give TfL plenty of wriggle room to not provide services in certain instances. Doesn't have to do so if they're not economic so no one is owed a bus service in London and certainly not on Christmas Day. You clearly feel very strongly about it but there is no duty or obligation on TfL.
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Post by paulsw2 on Dec 31, 2015 2:02:05 GMT
It's time this nonsense is put to rest. A bus service runs on the ISLE OF WIGHT on Christmas Day, so why not London ?. It's time TfL took their heads out of their arses and get this put right for 2016. Back in early 2000's there were a few commercial routes operated by London Central & Stagecoach East London and a few other companies that operated on Christmas day 712 715 plus others they charged higher fares and did not accept ANY concessionary passes or travelcards and they were stopped as they were not financially viable taking into consideration staffing costs (dvrs & engineering) . if TfL were to run a skeleton service on a few trunk routes people would still complain (why aint the P13 running for example) plus finding sufficient volunteers to work could prove difficult as Christmas is a family time and I would not wish to work Christmas Day regardless of enhanced wages.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 2:35:09 GMT
Simply put, many people don't have families to spend Christmas with and would rather work throughout that period. Some would do it just for the money. I do feel strongly about it , probably because since working age I have been employed by organisations that work 24/7 365 days a year , and within that workforce, it is accepted that some have to work throughout Christmas. Ther is never any shortage of people wishing to do so. Many want to , but realistically can't because there isn't any public transport in London on Christmas Day.
Social mobility is also an important factor in a city as large as London. I don't see how TfL can decide on their own that there isn't sufficient demand, 1.3 million potential passengers was quoted somewhere, who indicated they would travel on Christmas Day. Rather a lot already, add the tourists resident in Central London and using airports , that's a fair amount.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 31, 2015 10:52:35 GMT
Simply put, many people don't have families to spend Christmas with and would rather work throughout that period. Some would do it just for the money. I do feel strongly about it , probably because since working age I have been employed by organisations that work 24/7 365 days a year , and within that workforce, it is accepted that some have to work throughout Christmas. Ther is never any shortage of people wishing to do so. Many want to , but realistically can't because there isn't any public transport in London on Christmas Day. Social mobility is also an important factor in a city as large as London. I don't see how TfL can decide on their own that there isn't sufficient demand, 1.3 million potential passengers was quoted somewhere, who indicated they would travel on Christmas Day. Rather a lot already, add the tourists resident in Central London and using airports , that's a fair amount. Be careful about the numbers. TfL did some research amongst various groups and then using the results scaled them up to a potential London wide demand level. There was never 1.3m people saying they would travel. While scaling up results from a sample to a population is an accepted statisticial technique it is still subject to potential error either way - too high or too low. This is why TfL want to do more work to try to refine the likely demand levels and its geographic spread to properly assess likely costs and revenue and then better understand the case for doing or not doing something. I await the publication of the minutes from the last Surface Transport Panel to see what was decided and what timescales apply. We may be waiting until Feb for those though. TfL decide all the time whether there is or is not a case to do something. Anyone doing a business case has to assess the options and likely outcomes - I am sure a whole pile of stuff never gets done because the numbers simply do not add up. The only stuff that gets done where the numbers do NOT add up are where the Mayor says it must happen regardless - X26 trial, Heritage RMs, NB4Ls, cable cars, 60+ Pass, Night Tube, Ken's last minute fare cuts etc etc. Plenty of examples there where TfL had to do something and shoulder the costs regardless. We know several of the above things cost a lot of money and deliver poor levels of benefit. Why do you think I said it was important to ask Mayoral Candidates about their views on Christmas Day buses? If a Mayor adopts that as a policy then it's very likely to happen!
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Post by vjaska on Dec 31, 2015 11:45:36 GMT
There is also the potential issue of that once you have a Christmas Day service, where would it stop? Next thing you know, supermarkets and high street stores will start opening on Christmas Day - we've seen it with shops on Sunday's which has gone from them not opening to a proposed relaxation of the 11-5 hours so that shops can open earlier and later on Sunday's. Once you implement one thing, its usually not enough for most people. So, I'm not particularly in favour of a Christmas Day service - besides people should make plans in advance anyway which would eliminate a bus service on Christmas Day.
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Post by Paul on Dec 31, 2015 17:43:10 GMT
So, I'm not particularly in favour of a Christmas Day service - besides people should make plans in advance anyway which would eliminate a bus service on Christmas Day. This is exactly right. It's one day a year - surely people can cope? It's advertised well in advance and is generally well known that there is no public transport. There's no real excuse for not making plans in advance
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Post by sid on Jan 1, 2016 10:18:19 GMT
Simply put, many people don't have families to spend Christmas with and would rather work throughout that period. Some would do it just for the money. I do feel strongly about it , probably because since working age I have been employed by organisations that work 24/7 365 days a year , and within that workforce, it is accepted that some have to work throughout Christmas. Ther is never any shortage of people wishing to do so. Many want to , but realistically can't because there isn't any public transport in London on Christmas Day. Social mobility is also an important factor in a city as large as London. I don't see how TfL can decide on their own that there isn't sufficient demand, 1.3 million potential passengers was quoted somewhere, who indicated they would travel on Christmas Day. Rather a lot already, add the tourists resident in Central London and using airports , that's a fair amount. There are also people who are just don't bother about Christmas for whatever reason who would be more than happy to work, certainly in jobs I've been in that involved some Christmas Day staffing there has been no shortage of volunteers. I would suggest a watered down version of the night bus network, routes wouldn't necessarily have to be run by the usual garage or even by the usual operators as used to happen with Boxing Day services years ago. There is clearly a demand and I wonder how much longer TfL can bury their head in the sand?
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Post by snoggle on Jan 1, 2016 10:39:34 GMT
Can I just republish the link to the TfL paper again and ask that people read what it says. content.tfl.gov.uk/stp-20151022-part-1-item13-christmas-day-bus-services.pdfEvery time people say there is definitely a case or the demand then it must be borne in mind that a) there is no great certainty about the demand at all or how it would be spread geographically / over the day. b) there are obvious concerns about the costs (although these are not detailed in the paper) c) there is no business case at all under any of the three service options TfL have evaluated. Are we really saying that we would prefer TfL to spend money on a scheme with insufficient benefits when funds are scarce and there are far more beneficial schemes to spend the money on? For the sake of one day's service do we want to deprive some Londoners of better or new bus services that would bring benefits for up to 364 days a year? Turning the argument on its head would people be willing to a) pay higher fares for 364 days to fund a Christmas Day network? b) see service cuts on the bus network to free up funding? c) pay a higher TfL council tax precept to fund a Christmas Day network? I'm just trying to push to see what choices people would make to raise the funding and whether it's "acceptable" to fund a project with negligible benefits relative to other initiatives.
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Post by sid on Jan 1, 2016 11:16:32 GMT
There is also the potential issue of that once you have a Christmas Day service, where would it stop? Next thing you know, supermarkets and high street stores will start opening on Christmas Day - we've seen it with shops on Sunday's which has gone from them not opening to a proposed relaxation of the 11-5 hours so that shops can open earlier and later on Sunday's. Once you implement one thing, its usually not enough for most people. So, I'm not particularly in favour of a Christmas Day service - besides people should make plans in advance anyway which would eliminate a bus service on Christmas Day. If and when that does happen I don't think it will be connected to bus provision, there are plenty of towns around the country thronging with shoppers on Boxing Day but no buses running at all. Personally I don't need to use buses on Christmas Day so from a selfish point of view I couldn't care less but clearly there are people who do need buses on Christmas Day and I think it's ridiculous for London to have no provision at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 11:25:18 GMT
Can I just republish the link to the TfL paper again and ask that people read what it says. content.tfl.gov.uk/stp-20151022-part-1-item13-christmas-day-bus-services.pdfEvery time people say there is definitely a case or the demand then it must be borne in mind that a) there is no great certainty about the demand at all or how it would be spread geographically / over the day. b) there are obvious concerns about the costs (although these are not detailed in the paper) c) there is no business case at all under any of the three service options TfL have evaluated. Are we really saying that we would prefer TfL to spend money on a scheme with insufficient benefits when funds are scarce and there are far more beneficial schemes to spend the money on? For the sake of one day's service do we want to deprive some Londoners of better or new bus services that would bring benefits for up to 364 days a year? Turning the argument on its head would people be willing to a) pay higher fares for 364 days to fund a Christmas Day network? b) see service cuts on the bus network to free up funding? c) pay a higher TfL council tax precept to fund a Christmas Day network? I'm just trying to push to see what choices people would make to raise the funding and whether it's "acceptable" to fund a project with negligible benefits relative to other initiatives. Based on above, I suggest that there would be no need to up fares for every other day apart from Christmas day simply to provide a skeleton service on that day. Ditto the council tax arguement. I say that because sometimes you don't need surveys to see the bleedin obvious. Large parts of this city don't celebrate Christmas so would obviously use public transport if it were available. I find these suggestions somewhat baffling. They suggest to me that it actually encourages people to balk at the idea. Which is probably what TfL want. Running night services over routes currently with no associated night tube strikes me as a waste of money for negligible benefit. Or running evening frequencies at levels that are welcome but far in excess of demand is another waste
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2016 11:30:14 GMT
There is also the potential issue of that once you have a Christmas Day service, where would it stop? Next thing you know, supermarkets and high street stores will start opening on Christmas Day - we've seen it with shops on Sunday's which has gone from them not opening to a proposed relaxation of the 11-5 hours so that shops can open earlier and later on Sunday's. Once you implement one thing, its usually not enough for most people. So, I'm not particularly in favour of a Christmas Day service - besides people should make plans in advance anyway which would eliminate a bus service on Christmas Day. But I bet if they did put services on, enthusiasts would be out there taking pics and talking advantage of a service ?? Shops are totally different and would require a change in the law ( for larger shops )
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Post by John tuthill on Jan 1, 2016 11:51:46 GMT
Happy New Year everyone. I'm old enough to remember when buses and the U/G ran on Christmas Day. They usually ran between 9am and 4pm. There decline and ultimate no service at all was put down to the increase in car ownership. As has been commented on, most people will either stay at home, or make other arrangements.
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Post by bengady3 on Jan 1, 2016 11:51:46 GMT
Can I just republish the link to the TfL paper again and ask that people read what it says. content.tfl.gov.uk/stp-20151022-part-1-item13-christmas-day-bus-services.pdfEvery time people say there is definitely a case or the demand then it must be borne in mind that a) there is no great certainty about the demand at all or how it would be spread geographically / over the day. b) there are obvious concerns about the costs (although these are not detailed in the paper) c) there is no business case at all under any of the three service options TfL have evaluated. Are we really saying that we would prefer TfL to spend money on a scheme with insufficient benefits when funds are scarce and there are far more beneficial schemes to spend the money on? For the sake of one day's service do we want to deprive some Londoners of better or new bus services that would bring benefits for up to 364 days a year? Turning the argument on its head would people be willing to a) pay higher fares for 364 days to fund a Christmas Day network? b) see service cuts on the bus network to free up funding? c) pay a higher TfL council tax precept to fund a Christmas Day network? I'm just trying to push to see what choices people would make to raise the funding and whether it's "acceptable" to fund a project with negligible benefits relative to other initiatives. Based on above, I suggest that there would be no need to up fares for every other day apart from Christmas day simply to provide a skeleton service on that day. Ditto the council tax arguement. I say that because sometimes you don't need surveys to see the bleedin obvious. Large parts of this city don't celebrate Christmas so would obviously use public transport if it were available. I find these suggestions somewhat baffling. They suggest to me that it actually encourages people to balk at the idea. Which is probably what TfL want. Running night services over routes currently with no associated night tube strikes me as a waste of money for negligible benefit. Or running evening frequencies at levels that are welcome but far in excess of demand is another waste If it was me I would either keep it as it is or On Christmas Day routes 25,55,38,14,47,436,63,86,58,89,53,12,185,176,2,3,18,220,183,65,33,85,159,155,57,249,280,264,75,205,238,123,37,119,295,49,337,5,113,13,221,76,243,498,152,77,6,108,295,74,468,171,136,363,64 there are more routes I haven't added
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Post by snoggle on Jan 1, 2016 11:53:09 GMT
Can I just republish the link to the TfL paper again and ask that people read what it says. content.tfl.gov.uk/stp-20151022-part-1-item13-christmas-day-bus-services.pdfEvery time people say there is definitely a case or the demand then it must be borne in mind that a) there is no great certainty about the demand at all or how it would be spread geographically / over the day. b) there are obvious concerns about the costs (although these are not detailed in the paper) c) there is no business case at all under any of the three service options TfL have evaluated. Are we really saying that we would prefer TfL to spend money on a scheme with insufficient benefits when funds are scarce and there are far more beneficial schemes to spend the money on? For the sake of one day's service do we want to deprive some Londoners of better or new bus services that would bring benefits for up to 364 days a year? Turning the argument on its head would people be willing to a) pay higher fares for 364 days to fund a Christmas Day network? b) see service cuts on the bus network to free up funding? c) pay a higher TfL council tax precept to fund a Christmas Day network? I'm just trying to push to see what choices people would make to raise the funding and whether it's "acceptable" to fund a project with negligible benefits relative to other initiatives. Based on above, I suggest that there would be no need to up fares for every other day apart from Christmas day simply to provide a skeleton service on that day. Ditto the council tax arguement. I say that because sometimes you don't need surveys to see the bleedin obvious. Large parts of this city don't celebrate Christmas so would obviously use public transport if it were available. I find these suggestions somewhat baffling. They suggest to me that it actually encourages people to balk at the idea. Which is probably what TfL want. Running night services over routes currently with no associated night tube strikes me as a waste of money for negligible benefit. Or running evening frequencies at levels that are welcome but far in excess of demand is another waste. All I am saying, badly clearly , is that nothing comes for free and there are choices that *have* to be made. If there was a bottomless pit of money then TfL could throw money at the issue and not care about the cost but no one has discovered the pit. The options are mine not what TfL have said. Again just trying to find how people weigh up their priorities and what they'd pay or sacrifice to have something else. That sort of decision making happens all the time for people because people don't have unlimited funds. I am afraid I simply don't see the connection that "not celebrating Christmas" instantly means demand for public transport. If you look at the list of journey purposes that TfL identified from its surveys the biggest purpose was "visiting friends and relatives" and second was "worship" which I interpret (possibly incorrectly) that it is people who *do* celebrate Christmas who would travel and not those who do not. If there is insufficient demand to generate enough benefits from those who do celebrate Christmas then there must be an issue somewhere. The way this topic is being argued is that it is a matter of "blind faith" that demand would materialise to justify the effort and spending. I'm just not convinced and especially not when the wider network's funding is imperiled.
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