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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 14:49:10 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Dec 12, 2016 16:30:39 GMT
TfL are suspending Overground services to New Cross during the Southern strike to allow more trains to run to Crystal Palace from Dalston. They are also increasing services between Shepherds Bush and Clapham Junction. I wonder if the latter are being operated with spare Class 172s dormant during the GOBLIN closure? tfl.gov.uk/campaign/southern-railway-strikes
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Post by ibus246 on Dec 12, 2016 18:21:16 GMT
Would you agree or disagree that the unions are holding the public to ransom? What are you personal thoughts? I thought the days of unions effectively in control were over after Thatcher.
It would be interesting to hear some of your views
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Post by John tuthill on Dec 12, 2016 18:34:52 GMT
Would you agree or disagree that the unions are holding the public to ransom? What are you personal thoughts? I thought the days of unions effectively in control were over after Thatcher. It would be interesting to hear some of your views Can someone remind me how many guards there are on the U/G? Is it coincidence that the unions are upsetting the most heavily used railway viz a viz commuters?
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Post by jay38a on Dec 12, 2016 18:36:57 GMT
The Government are just in blame as much as Southern for the issues. They are the ones who are dictating to Southern what they have to do, but they don't want to admit that.
Wish someone would actually let the passengers know that the backbone behind all this is the Government........as even in his message today Chris Grayling seems to say its Southern who want to trial new technologies.....and who is making them do it.......the government!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by SILENCED on Dec 12, 2016 18:52:05 GMT
The Government are just in blame as much as Southern for the issues. They are the ones who are dictating to Southern what they have to do, but they don't want to admit that. Wish someone would actually let the passengers know that the backbone behind all this is the Government........as even in his message today Chris Grayling seems to say its Southern who want to trial new technologies.....and who is making them do it.......the government!!!!!!!!!! I will keep this brief .... but what new technology that Thameslink is not or Crossrail will not be using? DOO is 30 years old on Southern.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 12, 2016 19:05:41 GMT
I have two concerns.
1. This is all government policy which they thought they could sneak through my making it a franchise commitment. It is worth saying similar "efficiencies" are being demanded in other recently awarded or planned for award franchises. Therefore this "battle" is likely to be repeated on other franchises. If this was purely an issue between the unions and company it would have been solved months ago. It has only continued because the DfT take revenue risk on this franchise so they are "bank rolling" Govia to implement their policy. The disingenuous stance from Government makes me sick.
2. I have no great issue with DOO trains *provided* there is a proper management of risks. LU has decades of experience of coping with DOO and increasing patronage in cramped, busy stations. LU has increased technology, improved its quality, changed timetables and put staff on platforms to try to ensure dwell times are matched to levels of demand and that drivers can see what's happening or be advised by platform staff in dispatching the train. Two years the ORR said TOCs and Network Rail were a long way behind LU practice and were not managing the risks around patronage growth properly. My really big concern on Southern is that I have read lots of reports from drivers who drive their routes about shoddy cameras, badly positioned mirrors and monitors not working in cabs or on platforms. THis is before you get to the issues of poor weather conditions / bright sunlight affecting cameras and monitors. I have years of direct experience of platform / train interface issues on LUL and have read many incident reports where things have sadly gone wrong. This experience and insight gives me a lot of sympathy for the drivers' position about having DOO imposed. the GTR franchise has had burgeoning patronage increases in recent years meaning that risks have changed and will keep changing as to how people board and alight trains and how well / badly drivers can safely dispatch trains. There are also some emerging concerns about the risk of criminal prosecution of drivers and / or guards if there is a PTI incident. What is missing from this dispute is a full and objective assessment of the PTI risks and ensuring they are all properly managed. That may or may not mean that DOO is the right way forward and may or may not mean guards are kept on some services or more platform staff are required. The main thing is that passenger safety is dealt with correctly rather than having a doctrinaire imposition of a union bashing / cost cutting agenda from the liars leading the DfT.
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Post by jay38a on Dec 12, 2016 19:11:46 GMT
I have two concerns. 1. This is all government policy which they thought they could sneak through my making it a franchise commitment. It is worth saying similar "efficiencies" are being demanded in other recently awarded or planned for award franchises. Therefore this "battle" is likely to be repeated on other franchises. If this was purely an issue between the unions and company it would have been solved months ago. It has only continued because the DfT take revenue risk on this franchise so they are "bank rolling" Govia to implement their policy. The disingenuous stance from Government makes me sick. 2. I have no great issue with DOO trains *provided* there is a proper management of risks. LU has decades of experience of coping with DOO and increasing patronage in cramped, busy stations. LU has increased technology, improved its quality, changed timetables and put staff on platforms to try to ensure dwell times are matched to levels of demand and that drivers can see what's happening or be advised by platform staff in dispatching the train. Two years the ORR said TOCs and Network Rail were a long way behind LU practice and were not managing the risks around patronage growth properly. My really big concern on Southern is that I have read lots of reports from drivers who drive their routes about shoddy cameras, badly positioned mirrors and monitors not working in cabs or on platforms. THis is before you get to the issues of poor weather conditions / bright sunlight affecting cameras and monitors. I have years of direct experience of platform / train interface issues on LUL and have read many incident reports where things have sadly gone wrong. This experience and insight gives me a lot of sympathy for the drivers' position about having DOO imposed. the GTR franchise has had burgeoning patronage increases in recent years meaning that risks have changed and will keep changing as to how people board and alight trains and how well / badly drivers can safely dispatch trains. There are also some emerging concerns about the risk of criminal prosecution of drivers and / or guards if there is a PTI incident. What is missing from this dispute is a full and objective assessment of the PTI risks and ensuring they are all properly managed. That may or may not mean that DOO is the right way forward and may or may not mean guards are kept on some services or more platform staff are required. The main thing is that passenger safety is dealt with correctly rather than having a doctrinaire imposition of a union bashing / cost cutting agenda from the liars leading the DfT. I have my incline that the unions are not actually only fighting for southern employees but for future franchises as you say. We don't know what efficiencies the DfT have put into new South West franchise.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 21:11:43 GMT
1. Having recently ended up being pushed right onto the edge of the platform at London Bridge on the northern line, I was appreciative there was a nearby platform staff member keeping an eye on the crowds, making regular announcements not to push, and also comforting info passed on via intercom that no further passengers were being allowed into the platforms. This is a massive area of risk for all staff involved. The last line is the driver, who if something goes wrong, as others have said above, could face enquiries, so in this respect and that of overcrowding on this network, my sympathy is with the unions.
2. GoVia have outrageously tried to argue in court that the strike be called illegal because its effects were to impact on the right of movement within the EU. I'm so pleased the judges saw through the implications of going in the firms favour, because that judgement would have effectively ruled the right to strike illegal amongst those in the travel industry. Tip of the iceberg there I think.
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Post by snoggle on Dec 12, 2016 22:39:56 GMT
I have my incline that the unions are not actually only fighting for southern employees but for future franchises as you say. We don't know what efficiencies the DfT have put into new South West franchise. We do know in part - fleet replacement on the inner suburban services because of the way door sizes, vestibule sizes and dwell times are set out. The new franchisee will probably need to buy trains not dissimilar from Class 345s. I believe DOO is mandated on these services for the next franchise which is, of course, a big change from now as all services have guards. Therefore SWT will become the next London battle ground. I also understand DOO is partly mandated on some of the Northern franchise routes which run into large cities like Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester. There's no doubt in my mind that the unions consider the current govt stance to be an existential threat to their survival and also the T&Cs of their members. Why anyone would be surprised about this is beyond me given what unions exist for. Obviously some people won't like it or agree with it but that's not really the key issue here at all.
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Post by Steve80 on Dec 13, 2016 4:09:26 GMT
Heard on the radio that Southern are telling their passengers not to use their services for the next three days. I'm surprised at how long this dispute has been going on.
I used the train services a few times from East Croydon over the past few months and its has been a bit of a shambles. The trains are never on time and it is far too busy inside the train. Comparing it to the days when I used it regularly to University and when I used to work at Battersea garage, the service is so unreliable now. Before, I would hardly wait more than 5 minutes for a train which is a privilege when considering services from other parts of the uk. The few times I used it I have waited around 10 minutes or more.
Sometimes, when I'm at East Croydon and the train arrives packed then I would wait for the next one. Now I don't even consider that anymore
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Post by snowman on Dec 13, 2016 7:12:45 GMT
The alternative route for South London commuters via Victoria line at Brixton also has severe delays
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2016 7:58:39 GMT
Good luck to bus drivers in South London today. As usual, coming to the rescue when something running on metal goes wrong.
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Post by routew15 on Dec 13, 2016 9:06:52 GMT
Good luck to bus drivers in South London today. As usual, coming to the rescue when something running on metal goes wrong. BUT they have been doing the for the past however many months it has been the 40s and 176s that I have seen have been heaving but the difference of a strike day is that large crowds are left behind at bus stops. At a time when central London bus routes are moving extremely slow during peak hours, rail passengers still have more confidence in that slow moving than a southern train!
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Post by routew15 on Dec 13, 2016 9:25:23 GMT
1. Having recently ended up being pushed right onto the edge of the platform at London Bridge on the northern line, I was appreciative there was a nearby platform staff member keeping an eye on the crowds, making regular announcements not to push, and also comforting info passed on via intercom that no further passengers were being allowed into the platforms. This is a massive area of risk for all staff involved. The last line is the driver, who if something goes wrong, as others have said above, could face enquiries, so in this respect and that of overcrowding on this network, my sympathy is with the unions. 2. GoVia have outrageously tried to argue in court that the strike be called illegal because its effects were to impact on the right of movement within the EU. I'm so pleased the judges saw through the implications of going in the firms favour, because that judgement would have effectively ruled the right to strike illegal amongst those in the travel industry. Tip of the iceberg there I think. The northern line situation you just described seems to be a daily occurrence following the vast improvement in service. what is surprising to me is the increased amount of passengers travelling southbound in the AM Peak. WHen the Bank closure comes in it will be interesting to see how people change their journeys. Govia proceeding with legal action against the strikes, is quite popsturous. But better to seem like you're doing something 12 months later then nothing at all. What will happen next shall be interesting...
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