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Post by DE20106 on Jan 27, 2018 18:10:03 GMT
Created this thread as I haven’t seen any other discussion on it. There’s a lot of talk about single-deck routes that should be double-decked, but what about the other way round? I feel there are quite a few routes where deckers just aren’t needed. I’d also be very interested to know about times when they are needed.
I’d like to put forward the following:
D8 (obviously!)
241 - I’ve never seen it busy, may be a different story in the peaks/school periods
412 - I think they should run it like the 200, double deck school workings only. I feel it just doesn’t need them.
496
498
317
406/418 - (I’ve seen RATP use the 411/465 Versa’s on these anyway!)
175
415
61
482
17 - could be controversial. I have honestly never seen it with more than 3 people on the top deck, I’ve never even seen a half full bus on this route.
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Post by COBO on Jan 27, 2018 18:24:41 GMT
Created this thread as I haven’t seen any other discussion on it. There’s a lot of talk about single-deck routes that should be double-decked, but what about the other way round? I feel there are quite a few routes where deckers just aren’t needed. I’d also be very interested to know about times when they are needed. I’d like to put forward the following: D8 (obviously!) 241 - I’ve never seen it busy, may be a different story in the peaks/school periods 412 - I think they should run it like the 200, double deck school workings only. I feel it just doesn’t need them. 496 498 317 406/418 - (I’ve seen RATP use the 411/465 Versa’s on these anyway!) 175 415 61 482 17 - could be controversial. I have honestly never seen it with more than 3 people on the top deck, I’ve never even seen a half full bus on this route. I wouldn’t single deck the 17 because I’ve seen and been on packed 17s. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 27, 2018 18:26:26 GMT
Created this thread as I haven’t seen any other discussion on it. There’s a lot of talk about single-deck routes that should be double-decked, but what about the other way round? I feel there are quite a few routes where deckers just aren’t needed. I’d also be very interested to know about times when they are needed. I’d like to put forward the following: D8 (obviously!) 241 - I’ve never seen it busy, may be a different story in the peaks/school periods 412 - I think they should run it like the 200, double deck school workings only. I feel it just doesn’t need them. 496 498 317 406/418 - (I’ve seen RATP use the 411/465 Versa’s on these anyway!) 175 415 61 482 17 - could be controversial. I have honestly never seen it with more than 3 people on the top deck, I’ve never even seen a half full bus on this route. Yes to the D8 but certainly no to the 241, 496, 498, 406, 418, 175, 415, 61, 482 & 17. I’ve seen heavy loads on all these routes before in particular on the 175, 415, 61 & 482. The 415 is the one I can talk about the most as I live on the route - before it’s Old Kent Road extension, it was lightly used (IMO) even during the peaks but since the extension was implemented, it’s got a lot busier now and it’s busy during the peaks providing assistance to along Brixton Road & Tulse Hill. |
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Post by redexpress on Jan 27, 2018 18:35:31 GMT
The problem with many of these routes is that the peak / school loadings need DDs even if they are lightly used at most times. So what do you do - have a fleet of DDs just sitting around doing nothing for 22 hours a day? Running an extra DD can work in situations where you have a very specific peak flow to one school, e.g. 313. But on routes like the 412, the requirements are more complex. When the 412 was Dart-operated, the 612 needed 5 or 6 buses to cover all the various school movements. Nowadays it only needs 2 buses as the DD 412 can cope with everything else. So if you go back to SDs on the 412, you'd actually be increasing the overall PVR.
Often the least inefficient solution is to run the DDs throughout the day, even though you will end up with loads of spare capacity off-peak.
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Post by busman on Jan 27, 2018 18:35:50 GMT
I will say the 129 and 401.
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Post by busoccultation on Jan 27, 2018 18:37:53 GMT
17 - could be controversial. I have honestly never seen it with more than 3 people on the top deck, I’ve never even seen a half full bus on this route. As for the 17 I would probably reduce the Weekday Daytime frequency to every 10 minutes (currently every 8-9 minutes) instead. |
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Post by VPL630 on Jan 27, 2018 18:47:57 GMT
Created this thread as I haven’t seen any other discussion on it. There’s a lot of talk about single-deck routes that should be double-decked, but what about the other way round? I feel there are quite a few routes where deckers just aren’t needed. I’d also be very interested to know about times when they are needed. I’d like to put forward the following: D8 (obviously!) 241 - I’ve never seen it busy, may be a different story in the peaks/school periods 412 - I think they should run it like the 200, double deck school workings only. I feel it just doesn’t need them. 496 498 317 406/418 - (I’ve seen RATP use the 411/465 Versa’s on these anyway!) 175 415 61 482 17 - could be controversial. I have honestly never seen it with more than 3 people on the top deck, I’ve never even seen a half full bus on this route. Clearly you don’t use the buses in Romford frequently, I’ve driven 175’s 496’s and 498’s where I’ve been so full I’ve had to leave people behind, I’m surprised you say the those routes don’t need them yet the 365 which has very low use isn’t mentioned ?? There maybe times that you see these buses with very little people on but I’m telling you there are times when it’s the complete opposite, the 498 at school times is dreadful even the afternoon/evening peak and not to mentioned the 174/tfl rail are disrupted. I think you should do more research during all hours of the day. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 27, 2018 18:54:48 GMT
I will say the 129 and 401. I disagree with both of these, every 401 I've seen has had healthy loads on both decks. I can understand why you've said the 129 but the loads this route gets is also quite surprising, it's extremely useful when events are on at North Greenwich and many people take it should it arrive first before a 188. |
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Post by snowman on Jan 27, 2018 18:57:40 GMT
The problem with many of these routes is that the peak / school loadings need DDs even if they are lightly used at most times. So what do you do - have a fleet of DDs just sitting around doing nothing for 22 hours a day? Running an extra DD can work in situations where you have a very specific peak flow to one school, e.g. 313. But on routes like the 412, the requirements are more complex. When the 412 was Dart-operated, the 612 needed 5 or 6 buses to cover all the various school movements. Nowadays it only needs 2 buses as the DD 412 can cope with everything else. So if you go back to SDs on the 412, you'd actually be increasing the overall PVR. Often the least inefficient solution is to run the DDs throughout the day, even though you will end up with loads of spare capacity off-peak. The inefficiency is also due to way routes are tendered individually. If a double deck route with low off peak use is paired up with a single deck route (that shares the same terminus), then it becomes easy to put the spare single decks onto the other route at quiet times. Logically if both routes use 5 buses less off peak, no reason why 10 double deckers cannot then rest between peaks rather than 5 of each type. However this is far too complicated for TfL when each route has own contract award without cross links. TfL would rather spend millions moving fresh air in big buses off peak, than incur a few extra minutes admin working out and entering the link details at contract offering time. Money is too plentiful to force management into devising radical solutions. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 27, 2018 19:06:59 GMT
The problem with many of these routes is that the peak / school loadings need DDs even if they are lightly used at most times. So what do you do - have a fleet of DDs just sitting around doing nothing for 22 hours a day? Often the least inefficient solution is to run the DDs throughout the day, even though you will end up with loads of spare capacity off-peak. Clearly you don’t use the buses in Romford frequently, I’ve driven 175’s 496’s and 498’s where I’ve been so full I’ve had to leave people behind, I’m surprised you say the those routes don’t need them yet the 365 which has very low use isn’t mentioned ?? There maybe times that you see these buses with very little people on but I’m telling you there are times when it’s the complete opposite, the 498 at school times is dreadful even the afternoon/evening peak and not to mentioned the 174/tfl rail are disrupted. I think you should do more research during all hours of the day. The above two posts sum up the issue with trying to remove double deckers from routes. Unless you have a large sample of observations across every day of the week and across all operating hours and across multiple points along every route you can never draw the correct conclusion about the validity of conversion to another vehicle type. Double deckers are marginally more expensive to run but they are vastly more efficient than the standard single deckers that TfL prefers to see in use in London. Travel demand in London fluctuates on many different parameters and for many different reasons so having vehicles that have the capacity to cope with variation makes a lot of sense. I am glad we are past the days of faffing around with taking double deckers off service and putting single deckers / midibuses onto routes for a few hours or on Sundays. It didn't work in the 80s and 90s and it wouldn't work now. Whether we like it or not the peak in London is often very intensive and requires double deckers. I can't think of a double deck route close to me that does not warrant its capacity because they can be full to crush loading in the peaks. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 19:54:54 GMT
I will say the 129 and 401. The 129 is a very well used route and can get very busy! Trust me, I live along the route and it can be standing room only at peak times. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 20:06:45 GMT
The reason for the D8 being converted is the new and very large school opposite Bromley-by-Bow station.
Drivers would have to be typed trained for the single deckers and it would be dependent on the garage actually having single deckers suitable for the route.
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Post by vjaska on Jan 27, 2018 20:12:36 GMT
I will say the 129 and 401. I disagree with both of these, every 401 I've seen has had healthy loads on both decks. I can understand why you've said the 129 but the loads this route gets is also quite surprising, it's extremely useful when events are on at North Greenwich and many people take it should it arrive first before a 188. The 129 used to get me out of a hole on a regular basis as the 188’s were rammed leaving North Greenwich and this was back when both routes were under Travel London and the 129 would be busy as well be it an Electrocity or Dart. All the times I’ve been back since hasn’t suggested that anything has changed. |
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Post by kmkcheng on Jan 27, 2018 20:39:28 GMT
I would say the H12. Double deckers are only needed when the schools start and finish
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Post by 700101 on Jan 27, 2018 20:58:44 GMT
I will say the 129 and 401. Regarding the 129, it’s present route it is sutible to have Single Decker workings but once it’s extended to Lewisham it will 100% needs it’s DD’s |
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