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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 21:03:51 GMT
Leave the D8 alone it clearly warrants double deckers  Joking aside 241 - This is my local route and it pains me to say this but been watching it closely since the crossrail consultation and have notice how lightly used it is between Custom House and Canning Town especially outside of shopping hours. Its a funny route that is duplicated with the 262 /473 and 69 much of the way towards Stratford and is lightly used to Westfield from Stratford where post people find it quicker to get off at Stratford and walk over the bridge. Even during peaks from Canning Town the 147 is very heavily loaded towards Prince Regent so maybe the 474 swap is the right thing. I think this could probably get away with single deckers. 425 - has this improved recently? most times I see this its lightly used. D7 - this seems lightly used outside of peaks |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 21:07:23 GMT
I will say the 129 and 401. Regarding the 129, it’s present route it is sutible to have Single Decker workings but once it’s extended to Lewisham it will 100% needs it’s DD’s You clearly don't know the 129, then! Often standing room only at peaks! A very well used route that warrants double decks! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 21:26:42 GMT
The reason for the D8 being converted is the new and very large school opposite Bromley-by-Bow station. Drivers would have to be typed trained for the single deckers and it would be dependent on the garage actually having single deckers suitable for the route. Surely it would have been simpler to have left the 108 / D8 as they were and introduced a School bus route. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 21:29:31 GMT
The reason for the D8 being converted is the new and very large school opposite Bromley-by-Bow station. Drivers would have to be typed trained for the single deckers and it would be dependent on the garage actually having single deckers suitable for the route. Surely it would have been simpler to have left the 108 / D8 as they were and introduced a School bus route. A school route would make much more sense than swapping these two routings! This was one of the worst changes, I would say. The 108 used to be quite a nice fast route. Now it meanders down side roads!  |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jan 27, 2018 21:52:45 GMT
Surely it would have been simpler to have left the 108 / D8 as they were and introduced a School bus route. A school route would make much more sense than swapping these two routings! This was one of the worst changes, I would say. The 108 used to be quite a nice fast route. Now it meanders down side roads! I would say the 108 change has been successful while the D8 change hasn't, many people near Devons Road actually use the 108 to get south of the river now while the D8 by this point serves barely any purpose. It's most useful purpose by this point is serving Bromley High Street. |
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Post by vjaska on Jan 27, 2018 22:05:20 GMT
I will say the 129 and 401. Regarding the 129, it’s present route it is sutible to have Single Decker workings but once it’s extended to Lewisham it will 100% needs it’s DD’s Afraid I’ll have disagree - I’ve not seen any changes in capacity around North Greenwich to warrant the 129 going back to single deckers. |
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Post by sid on Jan 27, 2018 22:10:55 GMT
The problem with many of these routes is that the peak / school loadings need DDs even if they are lightly used at most times. So what do you do - have a fleet of DDs just sitting around doing nothing for 22 hours a day? Often the least inefficient solution is to run the DDs throughout the day, even though you will end up with loads of spare capacity off-peak. Clearly you don’t use the buses in Romford frequently, I’ve driven 175’s 496’s and 498’s where I’ve been so full I’ve had to leave people behind, I’m surprised you say the those routes don’t need them yet the 365 which has very low use isn’t mentioned ?? There maybe times that you see these buses with very little people on but I’m telling you there are times when it’s the complete opposite, the 498 at school times is dreadful even the afternoon/evening peak and not to mentioned the 174/tfl rail are disrupted. I think you should do more research during all hours of the day. The above two posts sum up the issue with trying to remove double deckers from routes. Unless you have a large sample of observations across every day of the week and across all operating hours and across multiple points along every route you can never draw the correct conclusion about the validity of conversion to another vehicle type. Double deckers are marginally more expensive to run but they are vastly more efficient than the standard single deckers that TfL prefers to see in use in London. Travel demand in London fluctuates on many different parameters and for many different reasons so having vehicles that have the capacity to cope with variation makes a lot of sense. I am glad we are past the days of faffing around with taking double deckers off service and putting single deckers / midibuses onto routes for a few hours or on Sundays. It didn't work in the 80s and 90s and it wouldn't work now. Whether we like it or not the peak in London is often very intensive and requires double deckers. I can't think of a double deck route close to me that does not warrant its capacity because they can be full to crush loading in the peaks. Might I ask on what basis you have concluded that putting single deckers onto double decker routes in the evening and Sunday wouldn't work? Only it's common practice elsewhere in the UK. Yes Sundays are often as busy as Saturday's nowadays but there is plenty of scope for putting single deckers out on some double decker routes in the evening, the 412 being an obvious example. Is there really any point in running double deckers on journeys that are unlikely to carry more than a dozen passengers when there are single deckers sat in the garage gathering dust? Obviously it wouldn't be viable on some routes, the 202 for example where the distance between route and garage would make it impractical but on routes that terminate at or near their home garage? The 406 and 418 perhaps? Maybe the 132 or 486? The possibilities must be endless. |
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Post by DE20106 on Jan 27, 2018 22:54:04 GMT
Created this thread as I haven’t seen any other discussion on it. There’s a lot of talk about single-deck routes that should be double-decked, but what about the other way round? I feel there are quite a few routes where deckers just aren’t needed. I’d also be very interested to know about times when they are needed. I’d like to put forward the following: D8 (obviously!) 241 - I’ve never seen it busy, may be a different story in the peaks/school periods 412 - I think they should run it like the 200, double deck school workings only. I feel it just doesn’t need them. 496 498 317 406/418 - (I’ve seen RATP use the 411/465 Versa’s on these anyway!) 175 415 61 482 17 - could be controversial. I have honestly never seen it with more than 3 people on the top deck, I’ve never even seen a half full bus on this route. Clearly you don’t use the buses in Romford frequently, I’ve driven 175’s 496’s and 498’s where I’ve been so full I’ve had to leave people behind, I’m surprised you say the those routes don’t need them yet the 365 which has very low use isn’t mentioned ?? There maybe times that you see these buses with very little people on but I’m telling you there are times when it’s the complete opposite, the 498 at school times is dreadful even the afternoon/evening peak and not to mentioned the 174/tfl rail are disrupted. I think you should do more research during all hours of the day. I don’t go to Romford often no, certainly not at peak times. From personal experiences I’ve only even seen and been on them with very very light loads, and also when you look at their usage figures it certainly doesn’t look like on paper that deckers are justified, I’m very interested to hear about busy experiences of routes I think are quite quiet. As for the 365 I literally know nothing about that route, I thought it was single deck!  |
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Post by DE20106 on Jan 27, 2018 22:58:59 GMT
Leave the D8 alone it clearly warrants double deckers Joking aside 241 - This is my local route and it pains me to say this but been watching it closely since the crossrail consultation and have notice how lightly used it is between Custom House and Canning Town especially outside of shopping hours. Its a funny route that is duplicated with the 262 /473 and 69 much of the way towards Stratford and is lightly used to Westfield from Stratford where post people find it quicker to get off at Stratford and walk over the bridge. Even during peaks from Canning Town the 147 is very heavily loaded towards Prince Regent so maybe the 474 swap is the right thing. I think this could probably get away with single deckers. 425 - has this improved recently? most times I see this its lightly used. D7 - this seems lightly used outside of peaks The 241 is an odd route definitely, very short and there’s no part of it that runs on it own, it only parallels other routes for its entire length. I go to Stratford and the surrounding area a lot and the 241 is always dead. The D7 I also thought about because I’ve never been on it or seen it busy, but if it carries 3 or so million people a year there must be some demand for it, as a general rule of thumb I think a single deck route that carries 3+ million people a year would struggle operating with single decks. As for the 425, I have seen it busy a few times. |
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Post by snoggle on Jan 27, 2018 23:26:49 GMT
The above two posts sum up the issue with trying to remove double deckers from routes. Unless you have a large sample of observations across every day of the week and across all operating hours and across multiple points along every route you can never draw the correct conclusion about the validity of conversion to another vehicle type. Double deckers are marginally more expensive to run but they are vastly more efficient than the standard single deckers that TfL prefers to see in use in London. Travel demand in London fluctuates on many different parameters and for many different reasons so having vehicles that have the capacity to cope with variation makes a lot of sense. I am glad we are past the days of faffing around with taking double deckers off service and putting single deckers / midibuses onto routes for a few hours or on Sundays. It didn't work in the 80s and 90s and it wouldn't work now. Whether we like it or not the peak in London is often very intensive and requires double deckers. I can't think of a double deck route close to me that does not warrant its capacity because they can be full to crush loading in the peaks. Might I ask on what basis you have concluded that putting single deckers onto double decker routes in the evening and Sunday wouldn't work? Only it's common practice elsewhere in the UK. Yes Sundays are often as busy as Saturday's nowadays but there is plenty of scope for putting single deckers out on some double decker routes in the evening, the 412 being an obvious example. Is there really any point in running double deckers on journeys that are unlikely to carry more than a dozen passengers when there are single deckers sat in the garage gathering dust? Obviously it wouldn't be viable on some routes, the 202 for example where the distance between route and garage would make it impractical but on routes that terminate at or near their home garage? The 406 and 418 perhaps? Maybe the 132 or 486? The possibilities must be endless. On the basis that London is not the rest of the UK. On the basis that London doesn't seem to have a major issue with crime or assaults on double deckers which is part of the reason for some areas outside London using single deckers in the evenings. On the basis that London has a much longer and higher peak flow and evening travel than the rest of the UK. On the basis that you still get strong surges of people leaving rail and tube services requiring onward bus connections. On the basis that I think swapping vehicles over is an unnecessary complication to scheduling and vehicle prep. Garages are busy enough coping with an inflow of vehicles from 1900 hrs onwards without having to manage swap overs of vehicle types. The savings are likely to be extremely marginal and potentially counter productive in terms of operational complexity and additional contractual compliance checking. If you want to save meaningful money then the thing to do is reduce the number of drivers, vehicles and shifts. This is why TfL are attacking peak frequencies and also flattening the difference between peak / off peak / evening on many routes. The next stage in the process is removal of entire routes or taking out early and late services to take operation down from 3 shifts to 2 plus the odd spreadover. I doubt we are yet at the point where TfL decide to take out AM and PM peak cover to just leave off peak coverage (1 shift plus meal break cover) on low use routes but if TfL have to take out more than 10% of the network mileage then we are headed in that direction. Anyone with any familiarity of deregulated areas will have seen a lot of these practices over many years so London would just be following the dire trends from elsewhere in England, Wales and Scotland. |
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Post by sid on Jan 28, 2018 0:11:23 GMT
Might I ask on what basis you have concluded that putting single deckers onto double decker routes in the evening and Sunday wouldn't work? Only it's common practice elsewhere in the UK. Yes Sundays are often as busy as Saturday's nowadays but there is plenty of scope for putting single deckers out on some double decker routes in the evening, the 412 being an obvious example. Is there really any point in running double deckers on journeys that are unlikely to carry more than a dozen passengers when there are single deckers sat in the garage gathering dust? Obviously it wouldn't be viable on some routes, the 202 for example where the distance between route and garage would make it impractical but on routes that terminate at or near their home garage? The 406 and 418 perhaps? Maybe the 132 or 486? The possibilities must be endless. On the basis that London is not the rest of the UK. On the basis that London doesn't seem to have a major issue with crime or assaults on double deckers which is part of the reason for some areas outside London using single deckers in the evenings. On the basis that London has a much longer and higher peak flow and evening travel than the rest of the UK. On the basis that you still get strong surges of people leaving rail and tube services requiring onward bus connections. On the basis that I think swapping vehicles over is an unnecessary complication to scheduling and vehicle prep. Garages are busy enough coping with an inflow of vehicles from 1900 hrs onwards without having to manage swap overs of vehicle types. The savings are likely to be extremely marginal and potentially counter productive in terms of operational complexity and additional contractual compliance checking. If you want to save meaningful money then the thing to do is reduce the number of drivers, vehicles and shifts. This is why TfL are attacking peak frequencies and also flattening the difference between peak / off peak / evening on many routes. The next stage in the process is removal of entire routes or taking out early and late services to take operation down from 3 shifts to 2 plus the odd spreadover. I doubt we are yet at the point where TfL decide to take out AM and PM peak cover to just leave off peak coverage (1 shift plus meal break cover) on low use routes but if TfL have to take out more than 10% of the network mileage then we are headed in that direction. Anyone with any familiarity of deregulated areas will have seen a lot of these practices over many years so London would just be followed the dire trends from elsewhere in England, Wales and Scotland. But the fact remains that on a route like the 412 which carries just a handful of passengers in the evening single deckers are more cost effective than double deckers and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. The 412 could perhaps be interworked with the 166 in the evening with buses changing route at West Croydon? |
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Post by joefrombow on Jan 28, 2018 2:44:17 GMT
I would say the 173 outside of school times carries alot of fresh air and could easily be single deck again , it's crazy to think that it used to run to Stratford via the current 473 routing many years back that's what you call round the houses same as the 296 running to Harold Wood via the 496 can you imagine that now 😯 ?
I think the 296 could do with double decks it does regularly see them though to be fair , The 496 I think runs every 20 minutes so the double decks are justified in that it's less frequent but does see some usage especially during shopping hours and peaks etc .
The 175 seems busy mainly when I see it so surprised about that one and as for the D8 it should have never been awarded with double deckers for the new contract , it simply doesn't need them unless they reverted to the original routing but even then I wouldn't say it was exactly busy even with the school loadings 7.8m Optare solos would of been fine for it I can't see it lasting long though tbf if loadings don't pick up once this new housing development in the Pudding Mill/Sugarhut Lane area is built , I think Tfl need to change there way of thinking on standardisation of routes bring back in routes that don't run in the evenings or weekends and peaks only etc make the specs a bit more relaxed so smaller operators can get a piece of the pie .
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Post by MetrolineGA1511 on Jan 28, 2018 7:33:50 GMT
Route E1. A short route. I rode it end to end early one Saturday afternoon last year, having only just missed the bus before, and there were never many passengers upstairs.
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Post by sid on Jan 28, 2018 7:42:46 GMT
The 353 is another one that probably doesn't need double deckers, I've done Orpington to Addington Village and nobody else on the top deck.
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Post by ctrh136 on Jan 28, 2018 8:15:16 GMT
The 353 is another one that probably doesn't need double deckers, I've done Orpington to Addington Village and nobody else on the top deck. Again that's down to school loadings like the 412. Also peak times can get a bit busy anyway. |
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