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Post by snoggle on Aug 8, 2018 21:10:56 GMT
It costs over £1m a year for a low frequency service that does nothing that regular buses don't already do. In stringent times when other routes are being axed wholesale and suburban routes are being cut contrary to Mayoral commitments it makes no sense *at all* to keep running it. If I end up with a worse service on the 123 on the new contract I will certainly be drawing the comparison to the Mayor's and my local AM's attention. It's about time this utter nonsense started having political consequences. Why is so much fuss made about the 15H? It could be argued that it's a heritage service and therefore not subject to the usual criteria and there are plenty of other routes that carry far fewer passengers. You can call it what you like. I only expressed an opinion (as per usual. You'd think it was a crime). |
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Post by sid on Aug 8, 2018 21:13:27 GMT
Why is so much fuss made about the 15H? It could be argued that it's a heritage service and therefore not subject to the usual criteria and there are plenty of other routes that carry far fewer passengers. You can call it what you like. I only expressed an opinion (as per usual. You'd think it was a crime). Just as I expressed an opinion. Who said anything about it being a crime? |
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Post by redbus on Aug 8, 2018 21:18:45 GMT
The 15H serves a purpose for tourists and those wishing to travel on a Routemaster. I have taken it a few times and on each occasion there are always other passengers waiting specifically for the 15H. I am not suggesting it covers its costs by any means and on a pure financial basis you would axe it, but then I am afraid that is true for a lot of bus services.
If sentimentality is brought in, you would certainly keep it. If you are being unsentimental you would axe it, but with only a few buses the savings would not be massive and set against the potential outcry, probably isn't worth the fight, more important battles to fight.
If it were axed, don't expect any replacement, the 15 would be left to cope with no extra buses. It costs over £1m a year for a low frequency service that does nothing that regular buses don't already do. In stringent times when other routes are being axed wholesale and suburban routes are being cut contrary to Mayoral commitments it makes no sense *at all* to keep running it. If I end up with a worse service on the 123 on the new contract I will certainly be drawing the comparison to the Mayor's and my local AM's attention. It's about time this utter nonsense started having political consequences. I understand exactly where you are coming from, and if axing the 15H meant a better service elsewhere such as the 123, it would make a compelling argument. Unfortunately I don't think axing the 15H would make any difference in that respect given the ways things seem to work, not least because we were originally told that cuts to central London services would fund improvements to outer London. Has that happened, no, on the contrary outer London services are being cut as well, never mind improved, and if they weren't we would not be concerned about the 123! All of these cuts come down to political priorities and I would be most surprised if the fate of the 15H made any material difference.
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Post by redbus on Aug 8, 2018 21:29:19 GMT
I think you'll get a free ride on the 15H if you present you contactless card to the conductor. Indeed I did the one time I made the mistake but it just seems madness that the service only takes Oyster! I know there is issues with the existing ticket machines but if they don't plan to update these surely another reason to scrap the service. I would much rather this and the RV1 scrapped than a more useful service.
This makes me see red! Red of a London bus!!!!  I could not believe the 15H did not take Contactless. I now know it doesn't because my wife and I wanted to take our son on it. We waited patiently at Tower Hill and my son and I boarded the bus. As my wife boarded, the conductor shouted 'no contactless'. My wife only had contactless (or cash) and explained this who the conductor who denied her boarding. I went with my son to the back of the bus to see what was going on, by which time the conductor had rung the bell, the bus moved off leaving my son and I on board, and my wife left at the bus stop. Utterly ridiculous.  |
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Post by jay38a on Aug 8, 2018 21:33:06 GMT
You can call it what you like. I only expressed an opinion (as per usual. You'd think it was a crime). Just as I expressed an opinion. Who said anything about it being a crime? Guys please.....keep it calm. |
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Post by redbus on Aug 8, 2018 21:35:18 GMT
Here's a radical proposal. Withdraw the 15H altogether from the TfL bus network, run it as a 'special service' in its present form, but double the fare, get the conductor doing a proper job for the first time, taking contactless cards and, most radical of all, shock! horror!, CASH!!! Conductors to receive a commission on all cash sales, as an inducement. The route would have to be renumbered to make it clear it's no longer a 15, I suggest RM1. Extend it up Regent Street to the Conduit Street stand, and allow boarding there. Also, create a new stop at Tower Hill just for this route. The cable cars in San Francisco pay for themselves, as well as helping to draw many to the city, and there's no reason why the RMs should not do the same, once TfL have worked out a way of getting traffic in the area to move at more than 3 mph! Much to be said for this, however not sure the existing 15H route is correct. Might be best with a totally new route going places that will attract passengers.
I can't see TfL increasing bus speeds (it's in the too awkward to do box), to make this workable, but a nice idea.
I'd also be interested to know what income the 15H raises. It might be more than we expect, as there are likely to be fewer concessionary fares and buses don't run early or late. Lack of contactless will reduce revenue though.
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Post by busaholic on Aug 8, 2018 21:49:46 GMT
Here's a radical proposal. Withdraw the 15H altogether from the TfL bus network, run it as a 'special service' in its present form, but double the fare, get the conductor doing a proper job for the first time, taking contactless cards and, most radical of all, shock! horror!, CASH!!! Conductors to receive a commission on all cash sales, as an inducement. The route would have to be renumbered to make it clear it's no longer a 15, I suggest RM1. Extend it up Regent Street to the Conduit Street stand, and allow boarding there. Also, create a new stop at Tower Hill just for this route. The cable cars in San Francisco pay for themselves, as well as helping to draw many to the city, and there's no reason why the RMs should not do the same, once TfL have worked out a way of getting traffic in the area to move at more than 3 mph! Much to be said for this, however not sure the existing 15H route is correct. Might be best with a totally new route going places that will attract passengers.
I can't see TfL increasing bus speeds (it's in the too awkward to do box), to make this workable, but a nice idea.
I'd also be interested to know what income the 15H raises. It might be more than we expect, as there are likely to be fewer concessionary fares and buses don't run early or late. Lack of contactless will reduce revenue though.
Thank you for your support. I think the route would need to include top tourist sites, and it's also a question of which operator is prepared to take it: it was notable with the 9H that First, then Tower Transit, operated it rather than London United, who were mightily relieved when the final RMs were withdrawn. I suspect only London General or, possibly, Arriva might vie with Stagecoach. I have to say I've only been on the 15H once, when it happened to be the first bus that came along for the journey I was doing: I wouldn't specifically wait for one. Oh, mind, if the only alternative was an LT and it was summer, maybe I would! |
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Post by sid on Aug 8, 2018 21:51:14 GMT
Indeed I did the one time I made the mistake but it just seems madness that the service only takes Oyster! I know there is issues with the existing ticket machines but if they don't plan to update these surely another reason to scrap the service. I would much rather this and the RV1 scrapped than a more useful service.
This makes me see red! Red of a London bus!!!! I could not believe the 15H did not take Contactless. I now know it doesn't because my wife and I wanted to take our son on it. We waited patiently at Tower Hill and my son and I boarded the bus. As my wife boarded, the conductor shouted 'no contactless'. My wife only had contactless (or cash) and explained this who the conductor who denied her boarding. I went with my son to the back of the bus to see what was going on, by which time the conductor had rung the bell, the bus moved off leaving my son and I on board, and my wife left at the bus stop. Utterly ridiculous. I'd have put in a complaint about that conductor. |
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Post by snoggle on Aug 8, 2018 21:53:08 GMT
I'd also be interested to know what income the 15H raises. It might be more than we expect, as there are likely to be fewer concessionary fares and buses don't run early or late. Lack of contactless will reduce revenue though. I can see the time coming when TfL use the cost of replacement conductor machines coupled with rising levels of contactless bank card acceptance as a reason to remove the 15H. "We cannot justify the cost of replacement ticket machines for conductors so therefore we must withdraw the service. The service also costs three times more than the normal route 15 to operate and we are unable to find the money for this." It's the same tactic in rough outline as they use for removing Tramlink ticket machines and, in some respects, closure of LU ticket offices. |
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Post by redexpress on Aug 8, 2018 22:15:04 GMT
The biggest downside to the 15H must be the lack of contactless payment! I can't remember the last time I used a Oyster card and always get frustrated when I have to let a bus go as I can't pay using my debit card. I think you'll get a free ride on the 15H if you present you contactless card to the conductor. In practice it may be a free ride but when I tried it, the conductor left me in no doubt that I would be on my own if a revenue inspection took place (and yes, I do still encounter revenue inspectors on my travels, before anyone pipes up about never seeing them). Why should I take the risk of getting into an argument with an inspector - and possibly even being charged a penalty fare - all because TfL's ticket machines are no longer fit for purpose? If TfL cannot be bothered to supply the equipment required to run the 15H it may as well be scrapped. |
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Post by busaholic on Aug 8, 2018 22:20:40 GMT
I think you'll get a free ride on the 15H if you present you contactless card to the conductor. In practice it may be a free ride but when I tried it, the conductor left me in no doubt that I would be on my own if a revenue inspection took place (and yes, I do still encounter revenue inspectors on my travels, before anyone pipes up about never seeing them). Why should I take the risk of getting into an argument with an inspector - and possibly even being charged a penalty fare - all because TfL's ticket machines are no longer fit for purpose? If TfL cannot be bothered to supply the equipment required to run the 15H it may as well be scrapped. I agree that revenue inspection takes place, in central/inner London at least, probably because of LTs being in the ascendant there. |
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Post by ronnie on Aug 8, 2018 22:27:38 GMT
Post today’s consultation on the 88 / C2, I reckon routes “cut to fit demand / avoid overbussing” (I.e., hacked senselessly to bits by tfl) would be prime target to be removed completely
I reckon 100, RV1 and 242 to be gone soon (with some sort of replacement service)
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Post by redbus on Aug 8, 2018 23:12:35 GMT
I'd also be interested to know what income the 15H raises. It might be more than we expect, as there are likely to be fewer concessionary fares and buses don't run early or late. Lack of contactless will reduce revenue though. cepting I can see the time coming when TfL use the cost of replacement conductor machines coupled with rising levels of contactless bank card acceptance as a reason to remove the 15H. "We cannot justify the cost of replacement ticket machines for conductors so therefore we must withdraw the service. The service also costs three times more than the normal route 15 to operate and we are unable to find the money for this." It's the same tactic in rough outline as they use for removing Tramlink ticket machines and, in some respects, closure of LU ticket offices. You may well be right, although I think when the next refurbishment of the RMs is needed that could be a tipping point.
As for payment methods, at the risk of being called regressive, revolutionary etc, the conductor could accept something called cash!!!! In respect of contactless, I would argue it's down to TfL Sure the existing contactless system may be difficult / expensive to get to work, but that's looking at it the wrong way. TfL *could* use one of the new payments providers who can provide mobile card readers at a low cost which would enable contactless on the buses.
As for costing THREE times as much as the regular 15, it seems to me the wheel has fallen off. Why? Clearly I am missing something. The cost of the buses (RMs) are written off, garage etc surely costs much the same, the big difference is the conductor, but how can that TREBLE the cost?
Ultimately TfL will always find an excuse / justification for any cut they wish to make, 15H included.
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Post by sid on Aug 9, 2018 5:43:07 GMT
I think you'll get a free ride on the 15H if you present you contactless card to the conductor. In practice it may be a free ride but when I tried it, the conductor left me in no doubt that I would be on my own if a revenue inspection took place (and yes, I do still encounter revenue inspectors on my travels, before anyone pipes up about never seeing them). Why should I take the risk of getting into an argument with an inspector - and possibly even being charged a penalty fare - all because TfL's ticket machines are no longer fit for purpose? If TfL cannot be bothered to supply the equipment required to run the 15H it may as well be scrapped. You're probably more likely to see Lord Lucan on a 15H than a revenue inspector but I understand your point but I'd certainly argue the case if there was any problem. |
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Post by cl54 on Aug 9, 2018 6:48:23 GMT
In practice it may be a free ride but when I tried it, the conductor left me in no doubt that I would be on my own if a revenue inspection took place (and yes, I do still encounter revenue inspectors on my travels, before anyone pipes up about never seeing them). Why should I take the risk of getting into an argument with an inspector - and possibly even being charged a penalty fare - all because TfL's ticket machines are no longer fit for purpose? If TfL cannot be bothered to supply the equipment required to run the 15H it may as well be scrapped. You're probably more likely to see Lord Lucan on a 15H than a revenue inspector but I understand your point but I'd certainly argue the case if there was any problem. They are not ticket machines. They are a simple hand held card reader. There are no cash handling facilities at any garage. Cash acceptance is a non starter. On a recent trip the conductor asked a person with a bank card to alight at the next stop and board the LT immediately behind. For many foreign visitors the thrill comes from riding on the top deck of a red London bus. Never seen more than a handful of people on a 15H in ages. If RMs are to be used it has to be a route where accessible buses are available as an alternative. Sorry but get rid. Once a year running day for enthusiasts is enough. |
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