|
|
Post by vjaska on Aug 9, 2018 10:42:42 GMT
Didn't someone say that the 15H is busy during the peaks?
|
|
|
|
Post by redbus on Aug 9, 2018 13:12:48 GMT
You're probably more likely to see Lord Lucan on a 15H than a revenue inspector but I understand your point but I'd certainly argue the case if there was any problem. They are not ticket machines. They are a simple hand held card reader. There are no cash handling facilities at any garage. Cash acceptance is a non starter. On a recent trip the conductor asked a person with a bank card to alight at the next stop and board the LT immediately behind. For many foreign visitors the thrill comes from riding on the top deck of a red London bus. Never seen more than a handful of people on a 15H in ages. If RMs are to be used it has to be a route where accessible buses are available as an alternative. Sorry but get rid. Once a year running day for enthusiasts is enough. I think busaholic came up with the best idea, have a RMs route that covers it's costs. It shouldn't cost three times as much to run the 15H than the 15, and if all payments methods were accepted (it's called being passenger friendly) and it had the right route, I think this would be possible. |
|
|
|
Post by sid on Aug 9, 2018 13:15:06 GMT
They are not ticket machines. They are a simple hand held card reader. There are no cash handling facilities at any garage. Cash acceptance is a non starter. On a recent trip the conductor asked a person with a bank card to alight at the next stop and board the LT immediately behind. For many foreign visitors the thrill comes from riding on the top deck of a red London bus. Never seen more than a handful of people on a 15H in ages. If RMs are to be used it has to be a route where accessible buses are available as an alternative. Sorry but get rid. Once a year running day for enthusiasts is enough. I think busaholic came up with the best idea, have a RMs route that covers it's costs. It shouldn't cost three times as much to run the 15H than the 15, and if all payments methods were accepted (it's called being passenger friendly) and it had the right route, I think this would be possible. Nice idea in theory but how's it going to work in reality? |
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Aug 9, 2018 13:18:45 GMT
You're probably more likely to see Lord Lucan on a 15H than a revenue inspector but I understand your point but I'd certainly argue the case if there was any problem. They are not ticket machines. They are a simple hand held card reader. There are no cash handling facilities at any garage. Cash acceptance is a non starter. On a recent trip the conductor asked a person with a bank card to alight at the next stop and board the LT immediately behind. For many foreign visitors the thrill comes from riding on the top deck of a red London bus. Never seen more than a handful of people on a 15H in ages. If RMs are to be used it has to be a route where accessible buses are available as an alternative. Sorry but get rid. Once a year running day for enthusiasts is enough. Ticket machines could be sourced. Cash handling facilities could be reinstated at one garage, just as happens in dozens of different bus garages in the UK. I'm not aware of any other city in the UK which refuses to take cash on buses, and there are many senior people in the bus industry who think that it was a regressive move, done only to favour the bus companies and ignoring the needs of the passenger, particularly the poorer ones who are most reliant on buses.
Passenger numbers on the 15H and all east-west routes in the area, especially in the off peak, have been drastically affected by the out-of-control road works, such that even someone who walks with a stick, like myself, good easily beat the bus on almost any given half mile stretch. When TfL decided to ditch the 9H Leon Daniels, then Head of Surface Transport, was asked why the 15H wasn't for the chop and replied (I paraphrase) 'the 15H performs a very useful purpose at the Tower in hoovering up a lot of passengers into an empty bus, particularly when there's a gap in service on the 15.' If that no longer pertains (which I doubt) then it's a reflection on TfL's inability to manage the roads properly.
Accessible buses would not need to be used as an alternative under my plan, as it wouldn't be part of the London bus network, and concessionary passes would not be accepted - think Sightseeing Tours. I agree this could be contentious, but I don't believe it's insuperable. Stagecoach might even like to run it as their own commercial service, under Special Licence. Okay, Oyster might prove problematic too.
|
|
|
|
Post by cl54 on Aug 9, 2018 13:40:43 GMT
They are not ticket machines. They are a simple hand held card reader. There are no cash handling facilities at any garage. Cash acceptance is a non starter. On a recent trip the conductor asked a person with a bank card to alight at the next stop and board the LT immediately behind. For many foreign visitors the thrill comes from riding on the top deck of a red London bus. Never seen more than a handful of people on a 15H in ages. If RMs are to be used it has to be a route where accessible buses are available as an alternative. Sorry but get rid. Once a year running day for enthusiasts is enough. Ticket machines could be sourced. Cash handling facilities could be reinstated at one garage, just as happens in dozens of different bus garages in the UK. I'm not aware of any other city in the UK which refuses to take cash on buses, and there are many senior people in the bus industry who think that it was a regressive move, done only to favour the bus companies and ignoring the needs of the passenger, particularly the poorer ones who are most reliant on buses.
Passenger numbers on the 15H and all east-west routes in the area, especially in the off peak, have been drastically affected by the out-of-control road works, such that even someone who walks with a stick, like myself, good easily beat the bus on almost any given half mile stretch. When TfL decided to ditch the 9H Leon Daniels, then Head of Surface Transport, was asked why the 15H wasn't for the chop and replied (I paraphrase) 'the 15H performs a very useful purpose at the Tower in hoovering up a lot of passengers into an empty bus, particularly when there's a gap in service on the 15.' If that no longer pertains (which I doubt) then it's a reflection on TfL's inability to manage the roads properly.
Accessible buses would not need to be used as an alternative under my plan, as it wouldn't be part of the London bus network, and concessionary passes would not be accepted - think Sightseeing Tours. I agree this could be contentious, but I don't believe it's insuperable. Stagecoach might even like to run it as their own commercial service, under Special Licence. Okay, Oyster might prove problematic too.
Your proposal certainly adds to the costs. Cashless has worked very well throughout London. Can't see how a crew route would ever make enough to keep it on the streets. The three doors on the LT hoover up passengers at Tower Hill nowadays. There are more than enough sightseeing buses on the streets. An RM is not that special for most people. |
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Aug 9, 2018 13:52:32 GMT
Ticket machines could be sourced. Cash handling facilities could be reinstated at one garage, just as happens in dozens of different bus garages in the UK. I'm not aware of any other city in the UK which refuses to take cash on buses, and there are many senior people in the bus industry who think that it was a regressive move, done only to favour the bus companies and ignoring the needs of the passenger, particularly the poorer ones who are most reliant on buses.
Passenger numbers on the 15H and all east-west routes in the area, especially in the off peak, have been drastically affected by the out-of-control road works, such that even someone who walks with a stick, like myself, good easily beat the bus on almost any given half mile stretch. When TfL decided to ditch the 9H Leon Daniels, then Head of Surface Transport, was asked why the 15H wasn't for the chop and replied (I paraphrase) 'the 15H performs a very useful purpose at the Tower in hoovering up a lot of passengers into an empty bus, particularly when there's a gap in service on the 15.' If that no longer pertains (which I doubt) then it's a reflection on TfL's inability to manage the roads properly.
Accessible buses would not need to be used as an alternative under my plan, as it wouldn't be part of the London bus network, and concessionary passes would not be accepted - think Sightseeing Tours. I agree this could be contentious, but I don't believe it's insuperable. Stagecoach might even like to run it as their own commercial service, under Special Licence. Okay, Oyster might prove problematic too.
Your proposal certainly adds to the costs. Cashless has worked very well throughout London. Can't see how a crew route would ever make enough to keep it on the streets. The three doors on the LT hoover up passengers at Tower Hill nowadays. There are more than enough sightseeing buses on the streets. An RM is not that special for most people. I agree there are more than enough sightseeing buses on the streets, but they wouldn't be there if they didn't make money. I don't agree with your last remark; you mightn't be aware of how many Routemasters are hired out for weddings, etc, at considerable cost, and see just how many feature on mugs, fridge magnets etc aimed at tourists. Again, they wouldn't be mass produced if they didn't sell. The traditional London red bus is up there with Tower Bridge, Buck House etc when tourists, especially foreign ones, are asked what they think of when London is mentioned. |
|
|
|
Post by sid on Aug 9, 2018 13:56:25 GMT
Ticket machines could be sourced. Cash handling facilities could be reinstated at one garage, just as happens in dozens of different bus garages in the UK. I'm not aware of any other city in the UK which refuses to take cash on buses, and there are many senior people in the bus industry who think that it was a regressive move, done only to favour the bus companies and ignoring the needs of the passenger, particularly the poorer ones who are most reliant on buses.
Passenger numbers on the 15H and all east-west routes in the area, especially in the off peak, have been drastically affected by the out-of-control road works, such that even someone who walks with a stick, like myself, good easily beat the bus on almost any given half mile stretch. When TfL decided to ditch the 9H Leon Daniels, then Head of Surface Transport, was asked why the 15H wasn't for the chop and replied (I paraphrase) 'the 15H performs a very useful purpose at the Tower in hoovering up a lot of passengers into an empty bus, particularly when there's a gap in service on the 15.' If that no longer pertains (which I doubt) then it's a reflection on TfL's inability to manage the roads properly.
Accessible buses would not need to be used as an alternative under my plan, as it wouldn't be part of the London bus network, and concessionary passes would not be accepted - think Sightseeing Tours. I agree this could be contentious, but I don't believe it's insuperable. Stagecoach might even like to run it as their own commercial service, under Special Licence. Okay, Oyster might prove problematic too.
Your proposal certainly adds to the costs. Cashless has worked very well throughout London. Can't see how a crew route would ever make enough to keep it on the streets. The three doors on the LT hoover up passengers at Tower Hill nowadays. There are more than enough sightseeing buses on the streets. An RM is not that special for most people. I don't see how cashless has worked well, it's lead to a considerable loss of revenue. However I don't see any realistic prospect of cash fares being reinstated on the 15H. The 15 wouldn't cope on it's own with loadings to and from the tower at busy times. |
|
|
|
Post by southlondonbus on Aug 9, 2018 14:02:32 GMT
I have to say I've used the 15H before and it was fairly well used and it was nice to still be able to ride an RM.
|
|
|
|
Post by SILENCED on Aug 9, 2018 14:13:03 GMT
Your proposal certainly adds to the costs. Cashless has worked very well throughout London. Can't see how a crew route would ever make enough to keep it on the streets. The three doors on the LT hoover up passengers at Tower Hill nowadays. There are more than enough sightseeing buses on the streets. An RM is not that special for most people. I agree there are more than enough sightseeing buses on the streets, but they wouldn't be there if they didn't make money. I don't agree with your last remark; you mightn't be aware of how many Routemasters are hired out for weddings, etc, at considerable cost, and see just how many feature on mugs, fridge magnets etc aimed at tourists. Again, they wouldn't be mass produced if they didn't sell. The traditional London red bus is up there with Tower Bridge, Buck House etc when tourists, especially foreign ones, are asked what they think of when London is mentioned. In that case they should charge tourist prices ... and not be a capped freebie. |
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Aug 9, 2018 16:44:05 GMT
Ticket machines could be sourced. Cash handling facilities could be reinstated at one garage, just as happens in dozens of different bus garages in the UK. I'm not aware of any other city in the UK which refuses to take cash on buses, and there are many senior people in the bus industry who think that it was a regressive move, done only to favour the bus companies and ignoring the needs of the passenger, particularly the poorer ones who are most reliant on buses.
Passenger numbers on the 15H and all east-west routes in the area, especially in the off peak, have been drastically affected by the out-of-control road works, such that even someone who walks with a stick, like myself, good easily beat the bus on almost any given half mile stretch. When TfL decided to ditch the 9H Leon Daniels, then Head of Surface Transport, was asked why the 15H wasn't for the chop and replied (I paraphrase) 'the 15H performs a very useful purpose at the Tower in hoovering up a lot of passengers into an empty bus, particularly when there's a gap in service on the 15.' If that no longer pertains (which I doubt) then it's a reflection on TfL's inability to manage the roads properly.
Accessible buses would not need to be used as an alternative under my plan, as it wouldn't be part of the London bus network, and concessionary passes would not be accepted - think Sightseeing Tours. I agree this could be contentious, but I don't believe it's insuperable. Stagecoach might even like to run it as their own commercial service, under Special Licence. Okay, Oyster might prove problematic too. TfL won't bring back cash payment. It's finished on the bus network. The removal of cash payment was to TfL's benefit not anyone else. TfL itself said they'd save £25m per annum from removing it. I assume they have now clawed that saving back as bus contracts have been retendered / renegotiated and from changes to banking and cash handling arrangements. I rather suspect the 15H's "hoover" capabilities are not much needed these days. The 15 has lost 1.1m pass jnys over the last 3 years (2014-17). Since 2005 it has lost over 5m pass jnys per annum as a result of route shortening, road works and reliability issues. The 15H has lost 244,000 pass jnys over the last 3 years and I expect it will be worse still when we get the 2017-18 financial year numbers. If TfL couldn't get private sector interest in the Heritage services back in 2005 they certainly aren't going to manage it now. The sightseeing market is over subscribed with far too many vehicle shuffling round Central London - witness the recent collapse of one operator. If someone wanted to run a RM sightseeing tour they could have done so by now but, apart from the afternoon tea tour, no one has. Instead they run *accessible* high capacity double deckers. Also no commercial tour, Stagecoach Megabus Sightseeing included, wants to be farting about with Oyster. If there was any demand for such a facility it would have emerged by now and it hasn't. Commercial companies rely on web based sales, their own staff "touting" their tours at busy stops and sales via hotels / agencies. The TfL bus network is irrelevant to them. So a brave suggestion but I can't see that it has any commercial basis whatsoever. |
|
|
|
Post by twobellstogo on Aug 9, 2018 17:03:07 GMT
Ticket machines could be sourced. Cash handling facilities could be reinstated at one garage, just as happens in dozens of different bus garages in the UK. I'm not aware of any other city in the UK which refuses to take cash on buses, and there are many senior people in the bus industry who think that it was a regressive move, done only to favour the bus companies and ignoring the needs of the passenger, particularly the poorer ones who are most reliant on buses.
Passenger numbers on the 15H and all east-west routes in the area, especially in the off peak, have been drastically affected by the out-of-control road works, such that even someone who walks with a stick, like myself, good easily beat the bus on almost any given half mile stretch. When TfL decided to ditch the 9H Leon Daniels, then Head of Surface Transport, was asked why the 15H wasn't for the chop and replied (I paraphrase) 'the 15H performs a very useful purpose at the Tower in hoovering up a lot of passengers into an empty bus, particularly when there's a gap in service on the 15.' If that no longer pertains (which I doubt) then it's a reflection on TfL's inability to manage the roads properly.
Accessible buses would not need to be used as an alternative under my plan, as it wouldn't be part of the London bus network, and concessionary passes would not be accepted - think Sightseeing Tours. I agree this could be contentious, but I don't believe it's insuperable. Stagecoach might even like to run it as their own commercial service, under Special Licence. Okay, Oyster might prove problematic too. TfL won't bring back cash payment. It's finished on the bus network. The removal of cash payment was to TfL's benefit not anyone else. TfL itself said they'd save £25m per annum from removing it. I assume they have now clawed that saving back as bus contracts have been retendered / renegotiated and from changes to banking and cash handling arrangements. I rather suspect the 15H's "hoover" capabilities are not much needed these days. The 15 has lost 1.1m pass jnys over the last 3 years (2014-17). Since 2005 it has lost over 5m pass jnys per annum as a result of route shortening, road works and reliability issues. The 15H has lost 244,000 pass jnys over the last 3 years and I expect it will be worse still when we get the 2017-18 financial year numbers. If TfL couldn't get private sector interest in the Heritage services back in 2005 they certainly aren't going to manage it now. The sightseeing market is over subscribed with far too many vehicle shuffling round Central London - witness the recent collapse of one operator. If someone wanted to run a RM sightseeing tour they could have done so by now but, apart from the afternoon tea tour, no one has. Instead they run *accessible* high capacity double deckers. Also no commercial tour, Stagecoach Megabus Sightseeing included, wants to be farting about with Oyster. If there was any demand for such a facility it would have emerged by now and it hasn't. Commercial companies rely on web based sales, their own staff "touting" their tours at busy stops and sales via hotels / agencies. The TfL bus network is irrelevant to them. So a brave suggestion but I can't see that it has any commercial basis whatsoever. As always (well, nearly always 😂 ) these are close to my thoughts too, snoggle. There may well be mileage in some proper Sunday running days (maybe one a month April - December, focussing on some different services each time), but there are better things to spend money on now than the 15H. As a Routemaster fan, it’s a shame, but sentiment doesn’t usually a good bus network make. |
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Aug 9, 2018 22:03:21 GMT
Ticket machines could be sourced. Cash handling facilities could be reinstated at one garage, just as happens in dozens of different bus garages in the UK. I'm not aware of any other city in the UK which refuses to take cash on buses, and there are many senior people in the bus industry who think that it was a regressive move, done only to favour the bus companies and ignoring the needs of the passenger, particularly the poorer ones who are most reliant on buses.
Passenger numbers on the 15H and all east-west routes in the area, especially in the off peak, have been drastically affected by the out-of-control road works, such that even someone who walks with a stick, like myself, good easily beat the bus on almost any given half mile stretch. When TfL decided to ditch the 9H Leon Daniels, then Head of Surface Transport, was asked why the 15H wasn't for the chop and replied (I paraphrase) 'the 15H performs a very useful purpose at the Tower in hoovering up a lot of passengers into an empty bus, particularly when there's a gap in service on the 15.' If that no longer pertains (which I doubt) then it's a reflection on TfL's inability to manage the roads properly.
Accessible buses would not need to be used as an alternative under my plan, as it wouldn't be part of the London bus network, and concessionary passes would not be accepted - think Sightseeing Tours. I agree this could be contentious, but I don't believe it's insuperable. Stagecoach might even like to run it as their own commercial service, under Special Licence. Okay, Oyster might prove problematic too. TfL won't bring back cash payment. It's finished on the bus network. The removal of cash payment was to TfL's benefit not anyone else. TfL itself said they'd save £25m per annum from removing it. I assume they have now clawed that saving back as bus contracts have been retendered / renegotiated and from changes to banking and cash handling arrangements. I rather suspect the 15H's "hoover" capabilities are not much needed these days. The 15 has lost 1.1m pass jnys over the last 3 years (2014-17). Since 2005 it has lost over 5m pass jnys per annum as a result of route shortening, road works and reliability issues. The 15H has lost 244,000 pass jnys over the last 3 years and I expect it will be worse still when we get the 2017-18 financial year numbers. If TfL couldn't get private sector interest in the Heritage services back in 2005 they certainly aren't going to manage it now. The sightseeing market is over subscribed with far too many vehicle shuffling round Central London - witness the recent collapse of one operator. If someone wanted to run a RM sightseeing tour they could have done so by now but, apart from the afternoon tea tour, no one has. Instead they run *accessible* high capacity double deckers. Also no commercial tour, Stagecoach Megabus Sightseeing included, wants to be farting about with Oyster. If there was any demand for such a facility it would have emerged by now and it hasn't. Commercial companies rely on web based sales, their own staff "touting" their tours at busy stops and sales via hotels / agencies. The TfL bus network is irrelevant to them. So a brave suggestion but I can't see that it has any commercial basis whatsoever. Scenario: TfL unleash a fabrication (sorry, consultation) on the proposed withdrawal of the 15H. Take your pick from the reasons; cost of conductor, non-accessible buses, shortage of spare parts, extra costs to keep them on the road, etc etc. Oh, and the main 15 can cope, thank you all the same.
Media/social media goes into an absolute frenzy. 'Save Our Routemaster' from people who wouldn't know one if it ran them over, mostly. Jacob Rees-Mogg announces his nanny used to transport him in a pram on one to Kensington Gardens; Russell Brand claims he was conceived on one; Katie Price offers to marry one, so long as there's no attendant publicity; Ant and Dec offer to get back together and do a show on one.
Sir Brian Souter (for it is he) throws his hat into the ring, saying that as a philanthropic gesture, and remembering how he first became a cowboy (sorry, busman) Stagecoach will offer to purchase the Routemasters they operate from TfL and run them themselves, on a route of their choosing, still on a daily basis, but not as part of the contracted bus network, so no Oyster, free passes etc, but discounts will be available for those holders. He proposes to run it from either Stratford or Canning Town bus stations down to North Woolwich, thus recreating one of the very first Routemaster operated bus routes.
Unlikely fantasy? Maybe, but stranger things have happened, and we'll need a bit of light relief in a benighted post-Brexit world. 
|
|
|
|
Post by snoggle on Aug 9, 2018 22:27:33 GMT
Scenario: TfL unleash a fabrication (sorry, consultation) on the proposed withdrawal of the 15H. Take your pick from the reasons; cost of conductor, non-accessible buses, shortage of spare parts, extra costs to keep them on the road, etc etc. Oh, and the main 15 can cope, thank you all the same.
Media/social media goes into an absolute frenzy. 'Save Our Routemaster' from people who wouldn't know one if it ran them over, mostly. Jacob Rees-Mogg announces his nanny used to transport him in a pram on one to Kensington Gardens; Russell Brand claims he was conceived on one; Katie Price offers to marry one, so long as there's no attendant publicity; Ant and Dec offer to get back together and do a show on one.
Sir Brian Souter (for it is he) throws his hat into the ring, saying that as a philanthropic gesture, and remembering how he first became a cowboy (sorry, busman) Stagecoach will offer to purchase the Routemasters they operate from TfL and run them themselves, on a route of their choosing, still on a daily basis, but not as part of the contracted bus network, so no Oyster, free passes etc, but discounts will be available for those holders. He proposes to run it from either Stratford or Canning Town bus stations down to North Woolwich, thus recreating one of the very first Routemaster operated bus routes.
Unlikely fantasy? Maybe, but stranger things have happened, and we'll need a bit of light relief in a benighted post-Brexit world. Social media and celebrities - yawn. It's perfectly possible for TfL and the Mayor to ignore such nonsense. It's been done umpteen times. It can be done again. I rather think Sir Brian Souter is a tad more concerned about the health of the Stagecoach group and the value of his investment than in pointless gestures in London. He has a sightseeing business in London but we do not yet know if it is making money and will remain or be wound down. Stagecoach have removed a lot of heritage vehicles from their various fleets over the years so I don't see sentiment overruling cold solid pounds. This is the same Mr Souter who had no qualms about selling up in London and who is sceptical at best about London's approach to bus services. I suspect the scale of tender losses and general retrenchment of work in London is causing questions in boardrooms of all bus companies who run TfL contracted services. We are hardly into the cut backs yet - 37m kms have to go over three years. That is a lot of work, a lot of vehicles and a lot of driver jobs. At some point serious questions have to be asked about the scale of business and profits. |
|
|
|
Post by sid on Aug 10, 2018 9:44:46 GMT
I have to say I've used the 15H before and it was fairly well used and it was nice to still be able to ride an RM. That's been my experience too although I'd question why it costs so much to operate? Would bids from the sightseeing operators be considered I wonder? They might be able to operate it cheaper as it's very much a non standard TfL route. I've often thought the route would be more interesting with guest appearances from other preserved buses although unlikely in the current climate. |
|
|
|
Post by busaholic on Aug 10, 2018 10:44:30 GMT
I have to say I've used the 15H before and it was fairly well used and it was nice to still be able to ride an RM. That's been my experience too although I'd question why it costs so much to operate? Would bids from the sightseeing operators be considered I wonder? They might be able to operate it cheaper as it's very much a non standard TfL route. I've often thought the route would be more interesting with guest appearances from other preserved buses although unlikely in the current climate. Guest appearances did happen occasionally in the Hendy days, but they're like ancient history now! Probably the 15H's only chance of survival is to take it out of TfL's hands one way or another. |
|
