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Post by rif153 on Jun 8, 2019 15:31:52 GMT
I agree about the Crossrail excuse being paper thin. I find it vexatious well used routes like the 25 and 53 are being hacked back from their Central London terminus with Crossrail used as the excuse even though there are plenty of people along both routes who will not be able to use Crossrail as an alternative The 25 is actually more justifiable being cut back to City Thameslink because the 25 does actually parallel CrossRail from Ilford to the West End. However that said I don’t agree with it being cut back because there are a lot of low income workers who rely on buses to get them to Central London from the middle/outer suburbs and many of them Won’t transfer to the fancy new line because they’ll want to save money. We need another mayor who actually valued buses and their commuters and Ken Livingstone (much as I dislike him) was that mayor 'The 25 is actually more justifiable being cut back to City Thameslink because the 25 does actually parallel CrossRail from Ilford to the West End' There are plenty of journeys that no longer can be done as a result of the 25 cut. People in areas such as Stepney get a raw deal as they won't be reached by Crossrail. Suggesting the 25 parallels Crossrail all the way from the West End to Ilford is outrageous, the 25 doesn't serve Liverpool Street and Crossrail will whilst on the flip side the 25 served Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail will not. The 25 was an important trunk route for Mile End Road which was well used and shouldn't have been tampered with. I would be less angry about the 25 cut if it had gone ahead with Crossrail but this idea that some of the 25 parallels Crossrail therefore the 25 cut is ok is nonesense. I do concede that the 25 cut is more justifiable than the 53 cut though |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 8, 2019 16:47:35 GMT
Suggesting the 25 parallels Crossrail all the way from the West End to Ilford is outrageous, the 25 doesn't serve Liverpool Street and Crossrail will whilst on the flip side the 25 served Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail will not. Err there is an enormous Crossrail station at Tottenham Court Road with two ticket hall entrances - one via the expanded tube station and the other half away along Oxford St east. |
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Post by rif153 on Jun 8, 2019 16:49:19 GMT
Suggesting the 25 parallels Crossrail all the way from the West End to Ilford is outrageous, the 25 doesn't serve Liverpool Street and Crossrail will whilst on the flip side the 25 served Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail will not. Err there is an enormous Crossrail station at Tottenham Court Road with two ticket hall entrances - one via the expanded tube station and the other half away along Oxford St east. I meant Oxford Circus/Holborn sorry my bad. Yes you could argue they’re both walking distance from TCR but the 25 does provide a convenient link to both for those who cannot walk far |
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Post by snoggle on Jun 8, 2019 16:57:27 GMT
Err there is an enormous Crossrail station at Tottenham Court Road with two ticket hall entrances - one via the expanded tube station and the other half away along Oxford St east. I meant Oxford Circus/Holborn sorry my bad. Yes you could argue they’re both walking distance from TCR but the 25 does provide a convenient link to both for those who cannot walk far Holborn is the place that is missed by Crossrail. Whenever Bond St Crossrail opens the Hanover Sq ticket hall is only a couple of mins from Oxford St / Hollies St where the 25 used to terminate. I don't want to get embroiled in this current argument about the 25 because it's been done to death and I won't add any value. It's self evident to me that buses and rail / tube lines can run alongside each other - there are thousands of such cases in Greater London. London's travel demand is SO high that the arguments for pure modal integration with little or no modal overlap on key corridors simply do not hold up. It works in many places in Europe but the demand levels are MUCH lower in places like Zurich, Amsterdam, Hamburg etc etc. It has to be a case of "horses for courses". |
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Post by busaholic on Jun 8, 2019 17:29:42 GMT
53 used to go Plumstead to Camden Town 109 to Victoria Embankment 108 Crystal Palce to Bromley By Bow( Seven Stars) 54 Woolwich to Croydon 12 Park Royal/ Harlesden to South Croydon London's longest Route 726 ( now X26) Heathrow to Gravesend 88 Acton Green to Banstead Happy Days Didn’t the 53 also used to run from Erith in the early days? Remember the current 53 is actually the former 53A and the “main” 53 used to run via New Charlton & Greenwich while the 53 runs via Charlton Village & Blackheath and i think the Original 53 in the 1930s and 40s ran to Erith. The 54 cutback was also a mistake at the time even supporters of the tram were against this cutback. I think the 171 cutback is even worse than the 53, the 171 is a handy cross river route, I honestly wonder if anyone sane runs TfL, they refuse to give the lengthy commuter routes like the 18, 25, 53 & 109 express routes yet the 140 will gain an express version. I remember the 53 being extended on a Sunday from Plumstead Garage (the old one in Wickham Lane) to Erith, taking over the Sunday service on the 122A over that section, but, let's be honest, the real reason for Plumstead Common to AM garage getting a Sunday only service in the first place was operational convenience, as P.C. had no refreshment facilities on a Sunday and a proportion of the service was allocated to AM anyway, so crew reliefs. Tacking the 122A section on saved the unnecessary cost of going via Plumstead Station on a Sunday, and would have saved at least one, probably two, buses. Yes, I was a tram supporter who always thought the 54 cutback was an error, though a slightly understandable one. |
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Post by route53 on Jun 8, 2019 18:12:09 GMT
The 25 is actually more justifiable being cut back to City Thameslink because the 25 does actually parallel CrossRail from Ilford to the West End. However that said I don’t agree with it being cut back because there are a lot of low income workers who rely on buses to get them to Central London from the middle/outer suburbs and many of them Won’t transfer to the fancy new line because they’ll want to save money. We need another mayor who actually valued buses and their commuters and Ken Livingstone (much as I dislike him) was that mayor 'The 25 is actually more justifiable being cut back to City Thameslink because the 25 does actually parallel CrossRail from Ilford to the West End' There are plenty of journeys that no longer can be done as a result of the 25 cut. People in areas such as Stepney get a raw deal as they won't be reached by Crossrail. Suggesting the 25 parallels Crossrail all the way from the West End to Ilford is outrageous, the 25 doesn't serve Liverpool Street and Crossrail will whilst on the flip side the 25 served Tottenham Court Road and Crossrail will not. The 25 was an important trunk route for Mile End Road which was well used and shouldn't have been tampered with. I would be less angry about the 25 cut if it had gone ahead with Crossrail but this idea that some of the 25 parallels Crossrail therefore the 25 cut is ok is nonesense. I do concede that the 25 cut is more justifiable than the 53 cut though Don’t get me wrong I don’t agree with the 25 being cut that far. I was looking at this from a TfL perspective, but I definitely see where you are coming from. |
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Post by route53 on Jun 8, 2019 18:25:56 GMT
The fact is Sadiq Khan will have a hard enough time being re-elected in 2020, it’s all well and good introducing the bus hopper fare, but journeys such as the 53 and 25 can take up to and/or over an hour, it took me 50 mins to get from Woolwich to Elephant & Castle the other day, I then had to head into the City and waited for 20 mins for a 388 therefore I missed out on my hopper fare.
CrossRail (if it ever opens in this decade) will solve a number of problems, not least it’ll take a load and pressure of several underground lines; such as the Central, District, Jubilee and Piccadilly (Heathrow Branch) and national rail suburban lines such as the local Great Eastern suburban line, local suburban Great Western lines and the North Kent/Greenwich Lines.
That doesn’t mean you should be chopping up useful bus routes, in that case there are plenty of bus routes in North London that need chopping up because the bulk of the underground network is based there.
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Post by busaholic on Jun 8, 2019 19:53:17 GMT
The fact is Sadiq Khan will have a hard enough time being re-elected in 2020, it’s all well and good introducing the bus hopper fare, but journeys such as the 53 and 25 can take up to and/or over an hour, it took me 50 mins to get from Woolwich to Elephant & Castle the other day, I then had to head into the City and waited for 20 mins for a 388 therefore I missed out on my hopper fare. I've always been opposed to hopper fare for reasons I've given on here on various occasions, so I won't regurgitate them here. I have, however, also been consistent in stressing that if the hopper fare was here to stay (and it obviously was) then the time period it applies for should be 90 minutes (for public consumption) or 100 minutes in practice, and the sooner this happens the less the hopper fare will come under scrutiny for its inadequacies.. Quite why I should point this out I don't know, except that I'm always pro getting the best for the bus passenger. |
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Post by rif153 on Jun 8, 2019 20:17:54 GMT
The fact is Sadiq Khan will have a hard enough time being re-elected in 2020, it’s all well and good introducing the bus hopper fare, but journeys such as the 53 and 25 can take up to and/or over an hour, it took me 50 mins to get from Woolwich to Elephant & Castle the other day, I then had to head into the City and waited for 20 mins for a 388 therefore I missed out on my hopper fare. CrossRail (if it ever opens in this decade) will solve a number of problems, not least it’ll take a load and pressure of several underground lines; such as the Central, District and Piccadilly (Heathrow Branch) and national rail suburban lines such as the local Great Eastern suburban line, local suburban Great Western lines and the North Kent/Greenwich Lines. That doesn’t mean you should be chopping up useful bus routes, in that case there are plenty of bus routes in North London that need chopping up because the bulk of the underground network is based there. The Central London bus changes largely feel like an attack on buses in South London with numerous vicious cutbacks to well used routes connecting South and Central London with the 3, 14*, 40*, 45, 53, 59, 171, 172 are all being cutback with the only 'enhancements' being to the 35 and 343.
* I know these routes are being cutback and then extended but there's still a loss of sorts
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Post by route53 on Jun 8, 2019 22:35:18 GMT
The fact is Sadiq Khan will have a hard enough time being re-elected in 2020, it’s all well and good introducing the bus hopper fare, but journeys such as the 53 and 25 can take up to and/or over an hour, it took me 50 mins to get from Woolwich to Elephant & Castle the other day, I then had to head into the City and waited for 20 mins for a 388 therefore I missed out on my hopper fare. CrossRail (if it ever opens in this decade) will solve a number of problems, not least it’ll take a load and pressure of several underground lines; such as the Central, District and Piccadilly (Heathrow Branch) and national rail suburban lines such as the local Great Eastern suburban line, local suburban Great Western lines and the North Kent/Greenwich Lines. That doesn’t mean you should be chopping up useful bus routes, in that case there are plenty of bus routes in North London that need chopping up because the bulk of the underground network is based there. The Central London bus changes largely feel like an attack on buses in South London with numerous vicious cutbacks to well used routes connecting South and Central London with the 3, 14*, 40*, 45, 53, 59, 171, 172 are all being cutback with the only 'enhancements' being to the 35 and 343.
* I know these routes are being cutback and then extended but there's still a loss of sorts
Spot on. The very area with very few tube options, and relies heavily on buses, I know South London has a large suburban network, but again, expensive fares, plus train services aren’t what they used to be, especially in South East London, where in 2022, the Woolwich line will be served by Cannon Street trains only, meaning no more West End trains, the very bus that took Woolwich residents to the West End will have been cut to County Hall by then. Anyone whose travelled on the South Eastern trains, will know that the stock hasn’t been refurbished, yet the trains are nearly 30 years old, no sign of new stock either. I digress, South Londoners are fed up being shafted aside, you cannot force people on tubes or trains, why shouldn’t people travel to Oxford Street for £1.50? People pay enough to TfL to earn that privilege |
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Post by busaholic on Jun 8, 2019 23:09:50 GMT
The Central London bus changes largely feel like an attack on buses in South London with numerous vicious cutbacks to well used routes connecting South and Central London with the 3, 14*, 40*, 45, 53, 59, 171, 172 are all being cutback with the only 'enhancements' being to the 35 and 343.
* I know these routes are being cutback and then extended but there's still a loss of sorts
Spot on. The very area with very few tube options, and relies heavily on buses, I know South London has a large suburban network, but again, expensive fares, plus train services aren’t what they used to be, especially in South East London, where in 2022, the Woolwich line will be served by Cannon Street trains only, meaning no more West End trains, the very bus that took Woolwich residents to the West End will have been cut to County Hall by then. Anyone whose travelled on the South Eastern trains, will know that the stock hasn’t been refurbished, yet the trains are nearly 30 years old, no sign of new stock either. I digress, South Londoners are fed up being shafted aside, you cannot force people on tubes or trains, why shouldn’t people travel to Oxford Street for £1.50? People pay enough to TfL to earn that privilege As long as you avoid Zone 1, it is well documented that you can travel from Upminster to Hatton Cross for £1.50 offpeak (possibly Heathrow too, according to some) if you stick to Underground and Overground trains. This makes a nonsense of pricing policy, and shows up the bus hopper fare for what it is i.e. an ill-thought-out shoddy compromise. |
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Post by Pilot on Jun 8, 2019 23:18:27 GMT
Lewisham needs some serious restructuring for buses to get out of stand into the station and then lewisham market, on a good day it takes 15 minutes to go from stand to market, on bad day like Saturday 20, stupidity and non-moving congestion.
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Post by sid on Jun 9, 2019 4:07:12 GMT
The Central London bus changes largely feel like an attack on buses in South London with numerous vicious cutbacks to well used routes connecting South and Central London with the 3, 14*, 40*, 45, 53, 59, 171, 172 are all being cutback with the only 'enhancements' being to the 35 and 343.
* I know these routes are being cutback and then extended but there's still a loss of sorts
Spot on. The very area with very few tube options, and relies heavily on buses, I know South London has a large suburban network, but again, expensive fares, plus train services aren’t what they used to be, especially in South East London, where in 2022, the Woolwich line will be served by Cannon Street trains only, meaning no more West End trains, the very bus that took Woolwich residents to the West End will have been cut to County Hall by then. Anyone whose travelled on the South Eastern trains, will know that the stock hasn’t been refurbished, yet the trains are nearly 30 years old, no sign of new stock either. I digress, South Londoners are fed up being shafted aside, you cannot force people on tubes or trains, why shouldn’t people travel to Oxford Street for £1.50? People pay enough to TfL to earn that privilege I can just about reluctantly accept the 53 being curtailed south of the river, I assume from your user name you have an affinity for the route, but Lower Marsh is an awful last stop for the 53 and I think it should use the current 77 stand with the 77 extended to Blackfriars in part replacement of the RV1. Alternatively return the 53 to Oxford Circus replacing the 453 but it would no doubt be deemed to long a route nowadays. The biggest concern for me though is the reduction on the 12 that has slipped in under the radar with there being no need to consult over frequency reductions, I can think of quite a few routes where savings could be made but most certainly not the 12 other than the over bussed Peckham to Dulwich section. |
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Post by cl54 on Jun 9, 2019 6:25:15 GMT
London Buses seem to be doing everything to get people to North Greenwich.
If people regularly using the station buy a Zone 1/2 Travelcard their bus travel in the whole of London is free.
This does not bring in money to support south east London's bus services.
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Post by rif153 on Jun 9, 2019 7:24:46 GMT
Lewisham needs some serious restructuring for bu, es to get out of stand into the station and then lewisham market, on a good day it takes 15 minutes to go from stand to market, on bad day like Saturday 20, stupidity and non-moving congestion. I was doing the 199 end to end yesterday and getting out of Lewis Grove and left onto the High Street to the Clock Tower was a nightmare, there were lots of buses piled up waiting to make that left turn but each time the light changed none of the buses could turn left because there was no space on the High Street for them without fouling the junction. It was agonisingly slow.
On a side note Lewisham Road is even worse for congestion. The lights at the top were only letting a handful of cars turn left on to Blackheath Road. Predictably, tailbacks on Blackheath Road meant no cars could turn into it causing a long tailback down Lewisham Road which must have hampered the 180 and 199
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