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Post by sid on May 10, 2019 5:20:42 GMT
The 227 could be extended to Clapham Park and the 417 withdrawn. The 137 should be adequate for the Clapham Common bit. But then it means a single decker route to deal with the school traffic so what's is the point? It's an easy enough change of bus at Crystal Palace. With the greatest of respects, your wandering into an area your clearly unfamiliar with judging by your 137 comment and extension of the 227 to Clapham Park so lets leave it there rather than carry it on any further  I happen to be very familiar with the area and to reiterate there is no possible justification in adding 7/8bph between Crystal Palace and Streatham, it would be a ridiculous waste of resources. |
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Post by sid on May 10, 2019 5:49:24 GMT
Even after school hours, the 417 continues to load heavy particularly from Streatham Hill Station where it’s common to find a crowd of people waiting, especially when the 417 is up the creek. For a period of time a few years back, I became a regular user of the 417 in the evenings and noticed how busy and how much it struggled. I certainly agree with you regarding the links it creates - in fact, I’ve always wondered why the transport planners have been insistent of making Palace one massive terminus for everything even before the bus station was built. I agree about Crystal Palace, apart from the ruins of the old palace, the transmission tower and the National Sports Centre, I don't actually see what's so special about Crystal Palace as a destination. I guess it just provides a massive interchange from South West to South East London. I find it interesting that apart from the 249, 432, 450 and N3, all buses that serve Crystal Palace terminate there. Even the 249/432 used to terminate there before the Anerley stand was built. I think it just happened to be a convenient place to terminate buses and it's continued from there. Many years ago there was a 186 from Victoria to Woolwich basically via the current 2/432 and 122 but it was withdrawn back in the 1960's. |
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Post by LVF_Admin on May 10, 2019 18:33:52 GMT
The 53 section between NXG & E&C is covered by many other bus routes, particularly the 453, however I’m sure once the Bakerloo is extended to Lewisham via the OKR, those in power will do their darnedest to degrade the 53 further, thankfully a fair few influential people live along the 53 route. Short of the 286 being rerouted to NG or extended to Lewisham, both options are over-bused, I think Surrey Quays would work as it would create a new connection, or a former one if you will, I’ve heard of the former routes 70 & 228 in which they both used to serve Surrey Quays-Greenwich-Eltham corridor many years ago One option for the 286 would be to extend it to Canada Water replacing the 199. The 129 could then be extended beyond Lewisham to Bromley replacing that section of the 199 and 320 although stand space in Bromley is scarce and leave the 180 as it is now. The 47 provides very similar links to the 199 although the round the corner Creek Road/South Street link is lost. The 286 was double deck originally, I have photos of the Titans that ran on it. |
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Post by LVF_Admin on May 10, 2019 18:37:06 GMT
Parking is sufficient providing some of the narrow-minded car drivers that use the restaurants and shops don't block the bus stands there, unlike last night where two cars were parking causing a P12 to block the road temporarily. Twas always thus at that stand, I can remember as far back as the peak hour 36A with RM's having to double park! It was even more of an issue with the MDs |
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Post by sid on May 10, 2019 19:13:51 GMT
One option for the 286 would be to extend it to Canada Water replacing the 199. The 129 could then be extended beyond Lewisham to Bromley replacing that section of the 199 and 320 although stand space in Bromley is scarce and leave the 180 as it is now. The 47 provides very similar links to the 199 although the round the corner Creek Road/South Street link is lost. The 286 was double deck originally, I have photos of the Titans that ran on it. Yes and L's from NX before it was downgraded to SR's and has had to make do with single deckers ever since. |
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Post by busman on May 11, 2019 11:05:34 GMT
I would extend the N21 to Crayford OR make a proper N472 utilising the 472/301/422/96 - the purpose to create better links for the fast growing Gravesend area, you get a lot of people asking for Crayford on the N89/N21 and Dartford has a decent night scene which is at the will of minicabs entirely. Also if and or when crossrail open this of course will provide better links and act as a night service along the line with connections for the Jub. Also much of the area the 301 and 422 cover around Upper Belvedere are a considerable distance from any current night services. Extending the 227 to Streatham I think is a brilliant idea. Also Woolwich to Bromley requires a change at Eltham where there are 4 buses doing this! An extension, possibly even a fast run from Eltham Station to Woowlwich on the 126 could go down a treat. Huge numbers use the 132 to connect to Jub from Eltham and if crossrail and a faster bus could offer a considerably faster trip then people may travel from Z4 so more money in the long run... Also I would radically overhaul Erith Buses. Cut the 428 all together and extend the 469 to Crayford along the 428, the 469 used to run to Bheath so before anyone says it makes the route to long, it doesn't. The B12 I would really send around the houses to serve the Quarry development, I do not see the point of the 180 doing this as anyone with a brain cell would just walk down to get a 99 to Woolwich. I don't really know what to do with this 180 extension, persoanlly I say don't bother really, it's overbussing the section unless it was made fast from Erith to Abbey Wood which of course won't happen. As frequent user of many of those services (including late night journeys on Fastrack between Gravesend and Bluewater/Darenth Valley onto the 96), I think these are great ideas. The 96 from Bluewater is very well used in evenings during the week. I would create a night link by extending the 486N into Dartford. Then if well used perhaps look at an option to cover weeknights as well. I completely agree with the 469 taking over the 428 once it gets chopped back from Bluewater. I would create the Woolwich - Bromley link by extending the 291 through Woodlands Estate into Welling and taking over the 126 from Eltham. Southbound routing through Woodlands would turn right off Flaxton Road via Welton Road then Swingate Lane. Northbound routing would be via Swingate Lane and Duncroft before turning right onto Flaxton Road. Buses would follow the 51 route between Swingate Lane and Welling Station before turning into Rochester Way, Welling Way and Westmount Road to join the 126 line of route. With the 126 stand space vacated I would create a new route between Eltham and Clapham Common. This would run via Eltham High Street and then join the A205 before turning off to run via Tulse Hill and Acre Lane into Clapham Common. <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.90000000000009px; height: 6.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_87287481" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1135px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_18793474" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 250px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_41252702" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1135px; top: 250px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3391818" scrolling="no"></iframe> |
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Post by sid on May 11, 2019 12:29:55 GMT
I would extend the N21 to Crayford OR make a proper N472 utilising the 472/301/422/96 - the purpose to create better links for the fast growing Gravesend area, you get a lot of people asking for Crayford on the N89/N21 and Dartford has a decent night scene which is at the will of minicabs entirely. Also if and or when crossrail open this of course will provide better links and act as a night service along the line with connections for the Jub. Also much of the area the 301 and 422 cover around Upper Belvedere are a considerable distance from any current night services. Extending the 227 to Streatham I think is a brilliant idea. Also Woolwich to Bromley requires a change at Eltham where there are 4 buses doing this! An extension, possibly even a fast run from Eltham Station to Woowlwich on the 126 could go down a treat. Huge numbers use the 132 to connect to Jub from Eltham and if crossrail and a faster bus could offer a considerably faster trip then people may travel from Z4 so more money in the long run... Also I would radically overhaul Erith Buses. Cut the 428 all together and extend the 469 to Crayford along the 428, the 469 used to run to Bheath so before anyone says it makes the route to long, it doesn't. The B12 I would really send around the houses to serve the Quarry development, I do not see the point of the 180 doing this as anyone with a brain cell would just walk down to get a 99 to Woolwich. I don't really know what to do with this 180 extension, persoanlly I say don't bother really, it's overbussing the section unless it was made fast from Erith to Abbey Wood which of course won't happen. As frequent user of many of those services (including late night journeys on Fastrack between Gravesend and Bluewater/Darenth Valley onto the 96), I think these are great ideas. The 96 from Bluewater is very well used in evenings during the week. I would create a night link by extending the 486N into Dartford. Then if well used perhaps look at an option to cover weeknights as well. I completely agree with the 469 taking over the 428 once it gets chopped back from Bluewater. I would create the Woolwich - Bromley link by extending the 291 through Woodlands Estate into Welling and taking over the 126 from Eltham. Southbound routing through Woodlands would turn right off Flaxton Road via Welton Road then Swingate Lane. Northbound routing would be via Swingate Lane and Duncroft before turning right onto Flaxton Road. Buses would follow the 51 route between Swingate Lane and Welling Station before turning into Rochester Way, Welling Way and Westmount Road to join the 126 line of route. With the 126 stand space vacated I would create a new route between Eltham and Clapham Common. This would run via Eltham High Street and then join the A205 before turning off to run via Tulse Hill and Acre Lane into Clapham Common. <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.90000000000009px; height: 6.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_87287481" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1135px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_18793474" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 250px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_41252702" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1135px; top: 250px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3391818" scrolling="no"></iframe> I think Dartford deserves a 7 night a week service and I wonder if an N422 would be viable with an extension to Dartford? The advantage over the more obvious N96 is that it serves the Bedonwell area. It could possibly be funded by withdrawing the N21 between Eltham and Bexleyheath and rerouting it to Foots Cray in place of the night service on the 321? Interesting idea for the 291 although it is a bit indirect compared to returning the 161 to Bromley. I did suggest something similar a while back by extending the 126 to Thamesmead via Welling. I'm afraid I'd be a bit dubious about the Eltham to Clapham Common idea. |
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Post by Gellico on May 11, 2019 13:28:54 GMT
Regarding night travel in Dartford. Arriva tried with a night service over the 480. Needless to say it was pulled. But they didn’t really look in the right places. My preference would be a route from Gravesend to Erith. Via Ebbsfleet International, Swanscombe, Greenhithe, Bluewater, Darenth Valley Hospital, Dartford, Crayford, Bexleyheath, Belvedere, Erith. I would extend the operating hours of Fastrack A , so it runs earlier in the morning and later in the evening. There are many areas of industry who employ shift workers covered in all those areas above, with social usage at Bluewater, Gravesend, Dartford and Bexleyheath. Last train from C London gets to Dartford around 0130 , and the first depart around 0440. If the buses were timed to connect with the N89 at Erith , or (preferably both) the N21 at Bexleyheath then it opens up more options. The demand is certainly there for early morning shift workers daily, At the moment, on Sunday’s for example, Arriva run early journeys on the 490 and Fastrack B. The trips from Gravesend towards Dartford are very well used with decent numbers transferring onto the 96 or SE trains for onward travel west. So I think this area is exceptional in respect of having a big population, of “blue collar” and public sector shift workers, plus a decent night scene, who at the moment are left out of the night public transport service, simply because of the invisible boundary between Kent and the London Borough of Bexleyheath. Sounds like we need the old N81 back. |
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Post by route53 on May 11, 2019 15:55:34 GMT
The 96 should be 24 hours at least at the Weekends, if not then I do like the idea of a N422 which extends to Dartford.
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Post by vjaska on May 11, 2019 18:31:53 GMT
I would extend the N21 to Crayford OR make a proper N472 utilising the 472/301/422/96 - the purpose to create better links for the fast growing Gravesend area, you get a lot of people asking for Crayford on the N89/N21 and Dartford has a decent night scene which is at the will of minicabs entirely. Also if and or when crossrail open this of course will provide better links and act as a night service along the line with connections for the Jub. Also much of the area the 301 and 422 cover around Upper Belvedere are a considerable distance from any current night services. Extending the 227 to Streatham I think is a brilliant idea. Also Woolwich to Bromley requires a change at Eltham where there are 4 buses doing this! An extension, possibly even a fast run from Eltham Station to Woowlwich on the 126 could go down a treat. Huge numbers use the 132 to connect to Jub from Eltham and if crossrail and a faster bus could offer a considerably faster trip then people may travel from Z4 so more money in the long run... Also I would radically overhaul Erith Buses. Cut the 428 all together and extend the 469 to Crayford along the 428, the 469 used to run to Bheath so before anyone says it makes the route to long, it doesn't. The B12 I would really send around the houses to serve the Quarry development, I do not see the point of the 180 doing this as anyone with a brain cell would just walk down to get a 99 to Woolwich. I don't really know what to do with this 180 extension, persoanlly I say don't bother really, it's overbussing the section unless it was made fast from Erith to Abbey Wood which of course won't happen. As frequent user of many of those services (including late night journeys on Fastrack between Gravesend and Bluewater/Darenth Valley onto the 96), I think these are great ideas. The 96 from Bluewater is very well used in evenings during the week. I would create a night link by extending the 486N into Dartford. Then if well used perhaps look at an option to cover weeknights as well. I completely agree with the 469 taking over the 428 once it gets chopped back from Bluewater. I would create the Woolwich - Bromley link by extending the 291 through Woodlands Estate into Welling and taking over the 126 from Eltham. Southbound routing through Woodlands would turn right off Flaxton Road via Welton Road then Swingate Lane. Northbound routing would be via Swingate Lane and Duncroft before turning right onto Flaxton Road. Buses would follow the 51 route between Swingate Lane and Welling Station before turning into Rochester Way, Welling Way and Westmount Road to join the 126 line of route. With the 126 stand space vacated I would create a new route between Eltham and Clapham Common. This would run via Eltham High Street and then join the A205 before turning off to run via Tulse Hill and Acre Lane into Clapham Common. Eltham to Clapham Common would be too much to run especially along the A205 - Brixton to Catford would be as far as I’d go to give you an idea in terms of what would likely be doable. As an outsider, the 291 seems to be probably the worst candidate to extend everywhere - it achieves its purpose in its role of ferrying people from Woolwich into the Woodlands Estate and is very reminiscent of many town routes outside of London. |
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Post by busaholic on May 11, 2019 18:47:40 GMT
I would extend the N21 to Crayford OR make a proper N472 utilising the 472/301/422/96 - the purpose to create better links for the fast growing Gravesend area, you get a lot of people asking for Crayford on the N89/N21 and Dartford has a decent night scene which is at the will of minicabs entirely. Also if and or when crossrail open this of course will provide better links and act as a night service along the line with connections for the Jub. Also much of the area the 301 and 422 cover around Upper Belvedere are a considerable distance from any current night services. Extending the 227 to Streatham I think is a brilliant idea. Also Woolwich to Bromley requires a change at Eltham where there are 4 buses doing this! An extension, possibly even a fast run from Eltham Station to Woowlwich on the 126 could go down a treat. Huge numbers use the 132 to connect to Jub from Eltham and if crossrail and a faster bus could offer a considerably faster trip then people may travel from Z4 so more money in the long run... Also I would radically overhaul Erith Buses. Cut the 428 all together and extend the 469 to Crayford along the 428, the 469 used to run to Bheath so before anyone says it makes the route to long, it doesn't. The B12 I would really send around the houses to serve the Quarry development, I do not see the point of the 180 doing this as anyone with a brain cell would just walk down to get a 99 to Woolwich. I don't really know what to do with this 180 extension, persoanlly I say don't bother really, it's overbussing the section unless it was made fast from Erith to Abbey Wood which of course won't happen. As frequent user of many of those services (including late night journeys on Fastrack between Gravesend and Bluewater/Darenth Valley onto the 96), I think these are great ideas. The 96 from Bluewater is very well used in evenings during the week. I would create a night link by extending the 486N into Dartford. Then if well used perhaps look at an option to cover weeknights as well. I completely agree with the 469 taking over the 428 once it gets chopped back from Bluewater. I would create the Woolwich - Bromley link by extending the 291 through Woodlands Estate into Welling and taking over the 126 from Eltham. Southbound routing through Woodlands would turn right off Flaxton Road via Welton Road then Swingate Lane. Northbound routing would be via Swingate Lane and Duncroft before turning right onto Flaxton Road. Buses would follow the 51 route between Swingate Lane and Welling Station before turning into Rochester Way, Welling Way and Westmount Road to join the 126 line of route. With the 126 stand space vacated I would create a new route between Eltham and Clapham Common. This would run via Eltham High Street and then join the A205 before turning off to run via Tulse Hill and Acre Lane into Clapham Common. <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.90000000000009px; height: 6.240000000000009px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_87287481" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1135px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_18793474" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 250px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_41252702" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="23.90000000000009" height="6.240000000000009" style="position: absolute; width: 23.9px; height: 6.24px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1135px; top: 250px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_3391818" scrolling="no"></iframe> Having grown up in Eltham, with grandparents in Bromley on the 126 route, and spending so much time bus and trolleybus spotting in Woolwich, a little later at North Woolwich, I was THRILLED when the 126 got extended from Eltham to Woolwich in the 1980s, especially before single deck Leyland Nationals despoiled it. However, it became quite clear quite soon that there had been no frustrated desire from people in and near Bromley to travel to Woolwich, or vice versa, and the 126s on their 20 minute headway merely replaced an equivalent number of 161s and carried almost exactly the same people. The 'experiment', if it could be thus described, didn't last too long. A little later a portion of the 161 service got extended from Chislehurst over the 227 to Bromley, and even got a TB allocation. Again, the residents of Bickley, of which my father had become one, didn't exactly form orderly queues to get on one to go to Eltham, let alone Woolwich, as they had no reason to. What I will say on the 291 idea is only that it recreates in part the old routeing of the 126 when its termini were Beckenham Junction and Plumsteasd Common, the Woodman pub, which my uncle was landlord of back in the 1950s. I got to visit him just the onve on the 126 from Eltham, which went via Riefield Road and Welling to Plumstead Common, soon to be replaced by a combination of extensions to the 124 anf 51. In the unlikely event of it ever coming to pass I might just break my golden rule and return to the area for one last time, to see whether my birthplace on Westmount Road survives. Eltham to Crystal Palace was a route I wanted badly when I was growing up, so I'd send your Clapham Common route down to Plumstead over the current 122 instead , thus swapping ends.  |
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Post by 700101 on May 11, 2019 22:13:33 GMT
Few ideas
N96 - North Greenwich to Darent Valley Hospital via 472 to Plumstead then via 96 route (every 30mins)
Discontinue the 472 night service
N53 - Whitehall - Thamesmead (via route 53 to Plumstead then 472 route) at its current frequency maybe even divert the N53 to service QE hospital so it has a night service all week
Also an idea I’ve mentioned before reintroduce the N47 but as Shoreditch - Croydon Town Centre (via current routes 47 to Catford then route 75)
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Post by busaholic on May 11, 2019 22:32:34 GMT
Even after school hours, the 417 continues to load heavy particularly from Streatham Hill Station where it’s common to find a crowd of people waiting, especially when the 417 is up the creek. For a period of time a few years back, I became a regular user of the 417 in the evenings and noticed how busy and how much it struggled. I certainly agree with you regarding the links it creates - in fact, I’ve always wondered why the transport planners have been insistent of making Palace one massive terminus for everything even before the bus station was built. I agree about Crystal Palace, apart from the ruins of the old palace, the transmission tower and the National Sports Centre, I don't actually see what's so special about Crystal Palace as a destination. I guess it just provides a massive interchange from South West to South East London. I find it interesting that apart from the 249, 432, 450 and N3, all buses that serve Crystal Palace terminate there. Even the 249/432 used to terminate there before the Anerley stand was built. I think there was a very simple reason why Crystal Palace was always, or almost always, a terminus, apart from the spaciousness and ease of turning and that was the provision of a canteen and toilet facilities. Buses used to arrive from Shepherds Bush, Golders Green, Camden Town, Kings Cross, Archway, Bromley-by-Bow etc etc. For a period in the 1960s you could add North Finchley, Parliament Hill Fields, Harlesden, and even Slade Green and Raynes Park were a fair way away. Having just struggled up Westow or one of the other hills at the end of that long journey those crews deserved a decent break, and at Crystal Palace they could get it, with no shortage of parking space. I'm surprised that more crew changes didn't take place there (in particular, N on the 3) but, if ian Armstrong is to be believed, they didn't. The only London bus terminus that compared in sheer numbers in the peak to CP was Victoria Station, which would definitely take the award: i'm talking of the late 1950s through the 1960s. Kings Cross could have its moments, particularly when you got late-running terminators, but somewhere like Stratford was almost all through services in those days, and Woolwich and Croydon had many different termini. |
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Post by busboy17 on May 12, 2019 0:06:03 GMT
Few ideas N96 - North Greenwich to Darent Valley Hospital via 472 to Plumstead then via 96 route (every 30mins) Discontinue the 472 night service N53 - Whitehall - Thamesmead (via route 53 to Plumstead then 472 route) at its current frequency maybe even divert the N53 to service QE hospital so it has a night service all week Also an idea I’ve mentioned before reintroduce the N47 but as Shoreditch - Croydon Town Centre (via current routes 47 to Catford then route 75) I like N47 but why not make it go past catford garage and via the 54 to Elmers end then to Croydon |
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Post by busboy17 on May 12, 2019 0:15:28 GMT
The 286 was double deck originally, I have photos of the Titans that ran on it. Yes and L's from NX before it was downgraded to SR's and has had to make do with single deckers ever since. Yes I have also been on a double decker 286 both generations of wright and an MCV EVOSETI but the withdrawal of the 199 wouldn’t go down well as it’s a popular route |
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