Night Buses

[busaholic]

Jul 30, 2019 3:27:40 GMT vjaska said:

Jul 29, 2019 23:16:58 GMT busaholic said:

Anyone with the slightest interest in the history of London night bus operation should go to Ian Armstrong's London Buses website and look up the 287 under the Night Routes category, the circular bus route to end all circular bus routes, complete with intermediate and ultimate blind changes mid-route, all done by crews working straight shifts of about 4 hr 40 mins.

The irony is that it wasn’t the only circular night route either as the N70 in the 90’s ran from Trafalgar Square to Trafalgar Square before being restructured to run Trafalgar Square to Norwood Junction.

The 287, though (or N87 if you like) ran in two circular sections, in a figure of eight formation, with every southbound journey on one section connecting with the southbound journey on the other section, as it had when it was Night Tram 1, with each of the six buses allocated doing one loop followed by the other. Strictly speaking, it had NO terminus either! This was because the Met Police never allowed Charing Cross LT station (now, of course, renamed Embankment) to be considered a terminus, or bus stand. When buses replaced tram routes, like the 109 from Purley and 177 from Abbey Wood, buses 'paused' at Charing Cross before continuing on their loop and were allowed extra time when they returned to Purley, or wherever, which is one reason why you could often see four or more 109 buses on the stand at Purley in halcyon days. The N87, not having a southern terminus, had to 'pause' for 6 minutes at Charing Cross, though I note Ian Armstrong uses the term 'stand'. I suspect that in practice the Met police weren't too concerned at what happened at 3 a.m., but lip service had to be given!

I wasn't aware of the N70, it was a period when I lost touch with the detail, so thanks for mentioning.

[M1104]

Jul 30, 2019 13:06:33 GMT londonboy71 said:

Jul 30, 2019 3:27:40 GMT vjaska said:

The irony is that it wasn’t the only circular night route either as the N70 in the 90’s ran from Trafalgar Square to Trafalgar Square before being restructured to run Trafalgar Square to Norwood Junction.

N87 before that Kennington to Kennington via Streatham

My memory could be playing tricks on me but im sure the N87 also used to run from Central London via the 155 and 131 (via Tooting, Merton, Wimbledon and Raynes Park) to West Molesley.

[redexpress]

Jul 30, 2019 13:31:37 GMT M1104 said:

Jul 30, 2019 13:06:33 GMT londonboy71 said:

N87 before that Kennington to Kennington via Streatham

My memory could be playing tricks on me but im sure the N87 also used to run from Central London via the 155 and 131 (via Tooting, Merton, Wimbledon and Raynes Park) to West Molesley.

Yes, the figure-of-eight route described by busaholic above was split in two in the April 1984 changes, with one half of the route becoming the N78 (which would later become the N109).  This allowed the remnant of the N87 to divert off to Raynes Park, and eventually reach Hampton Court (can't find any reference of it continuing to West Molesey though).  Full details here.

Quite a coincidence that today's N87 covers much of the same ground as the earlier N87, even though the two routes aren't actually related.

[paulsw2]

Jul 30, 2019 15:14:49 GMT redexpress said:

Jul 30, 2019 13:31:37 GMT M1104 said:

My memory could be playing tricks on me but im sure the N87 also used to run from Central London via the 155 and 131 (via Tooting, Merton, Wimbledon and Raynes Park) to West Molesley.

Yes, the figure-of-eight route described by busaholic above was split in two in the April 1984 changes, with one half of the route becoming the N78 (which would later become the N109).  This allowed the remnant of the N87 to divert off to Raynes Park, and eventually reach Hampton Court (can't find any reference of it continuing to West Molesey though).  Full details here.

Quite a coincidence that today's N87 covers much of the same ground as the earlier N87, even though the two routes aren't actually related.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the N60 or N80 both of these were circular routes (1 direction only)
These route were formed by “livening up” the Clapham CA and Potters Bar PB staff buses

[busaholic]

Jul 30, 2019 16:16:47 GMT paulsw2 said:

Jul 30, 2019 15:14:49 GMT redexpress said:

Yes, the figure-of-eight route described by busaholic above was split in two in the April 1984 changes, with one half of the route becoming the N78 (which would later become the N109).  This allowed the remnant of the N87 to divert off to Raynes Park, and eventually reach Hampton Court (can't find any reference of it continuing to West Molesey though).  Full details here.

Quite a coincidence that today's N87 covers much of the same ground as the earlier N87, even though the two routes aren't actually related.

I am surprised no one has mentioned the N60 or N80 both of these were circular routes (1 direction only)
These route were formed by “livening up” the Clapham CA and Potters Bar PB staff buses

Staff buses are a very interesting subject, one that AFAIK has never been systematically covered in any journal except for the Aldenham staff buses. At school in the 1960s and waiting for my 160 home, for a couple of years a GS (Guy Special) still in its green, Country livery would pass me on its way to its home garage AW (Abbey Wood) filled with Aldenham Works staff, a long journey even in those days! A few years later, living in Bromley, the RF always used then by TB as its staff bus was seen by me many times in many places. There were staff trolleybuses too, a good account of the Finchley (FY) one appearing in a book a few years ago, whose name escapes me. It covered more than FY routes too!

[southlondonbus]

I seem to recall an N80 over the N81 routeing but I think was a London Central operated service.

[stuckonthe486]

Jul 30, 2019 18:53:20 GMT southlondonbus said:

I seem to recall an N80 over the N81 routeing but I think was a London Central operated service.

here it is! londonbusesbyadam.zenfolio.com/p1055277597/h2F7A9AD7#h2f7a9ad7

There was a weekend NX1 service to Gillingham run by London Central between October 1990 and October 1993 - it made very few stops within London: www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/nx1.html

Then the nightly N81 (a stopping service) was introduced, partly replacing the old N72 to Dartford, slogging its way out to Gravesend (even on weeknights for the first couple of years) and still with one Fri/Sat trip out to Gillingham. (Those trips into deepest Kent must have been a commercial enterprise, surely?) www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/n081-2.html

But when the N81 was trimmed back to Crayford in 1999, there was for a short while another commerical service, the N80, which was a bit like the old NX1 but with a few more stops in London, including the Sun-in-the-Sands roundabout. I used to get it home a fair bit - travelcard holders got cheaper fares. It was paired up with another London Central commercial bus, the N60, which came in from somewhere like St Albans. Pretty sure they never lasted for more than a year. (Searching around, I see that redexpress mentioned it here: tangytango.proboards.com/post/508803/thread)

Three years later, the N81 was replaced by the N89 and that's the way it's stayed since.

[redexpress]

Jul 30, 2019 23:46:27 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Jul 30, 2019 18:53:20 GMT southlondonbus said:

I seem to recall an N80 over the N81 routeing but I think was a London Central operated service.

here it is! londonbusesbyadam.zenfolio.com/p1055277597/h2F7A9AD7#h2f7a9ad7

There was a weekend NX1 service to Gillingham run by London Central between October 1990 and October 1993 - it made very few stops within London: www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/nx1.html

Then the nightly N81 (a stopping service) was introduced, partly replacing the old N72 to Dartford, slogging its way out to Gravesend (even on weeknights for the first couple of years) and still with one Fri/Sat trip out to Gillingham. (Those trips into deepest Kent must have been a commercial enterprise, surely?) www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/n081-2.html

But when the N81 was trimmed back to Crayford in 1999, there was for a short while another commerical service, the N80, which was a bit like the old NX1 but with a few more stops in London, including the Sun-in-the-Sands roundabout. I used to get it home a fair bit - travelcard holders got cheaper fares. It was paired up with another London Central commercial bus, the N60, which came in from somewhere like St Albans. Pretty sure they never lasted for more than a year. (Searching around, I see that redexpress mentioned it here: tangytango.proboards.com/post/508803/thread)

Three years later, the N81 was replaced by the N89 and that's the way it's stayed since.

Having dug around a bit I was surprised to find that the N80/N82 actually lasted almost three years, being withdrawn in May 2002.  All buses ran as N80s between central London and Gravesend, with one bus per night changing to an N82 at Gravesend to continue to Gillingham.  The N60 to St Albans was withdrawn earlier, in February 2001.

[localet44]

Jul 30, 2019 23:46:27 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Jul 30, 2019 18:53:20 GMT southlondonbus said:

I seem to recall an N80 over the N81 routeing but I think was a London Central operated service.

here it is! londonbusesbyadam.zenfolio.com/p1055277597/h2F7A9AD7#h2f7a9ad7

There was a weekend NX1 service to Gillingham run by London Central between October 1990 and October 1993 - it made very few stops within London: www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/nx1.html

Then the nightly N81 (a stopping service) was introduced, partly replacing the old N72 to Dartford, slogging its way out to Gravesend (even on weeknights for the first couple of years) and still with one Fri/Sat trip out to Gillingham. (Those trips into deepest Kent must have been a commercial enterprise, surely?) www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/n081-2.html

But when the N81 was trimmed back to Crayford in 1999, there was for a short while another commerical service, the N80, which was a bit like the old NX1 but with a few more stops in London, including the Sun-in-the-Sands roundabout. I used to get it home a fair bit - travelcard holders got cheaper fares. It was paired up with another London Central commercial bus, the N60, which came in from somewhere like St Albans. Pretty sure they never lasted for more than a year. (Searching around, I see that redexpress mentioned it here: tangytango.proboards.com/post/508803/thread)

Three years later, the N81 was replaced by the N89 and that's the way it's stayed since.

I see that my photos of the night buses in Gillingham have come to light.

Here is a summary of the night services to Gillingham [including details of N60] -

19 October 1990 – service NX1 introduced Trafalgar Sqaure to Gillingham   [date corrected - BCC]
8 October 1993 – service NX1 withdrawn
8 October 1993 - Service N81 introduced Victoria to Crayford with journey extended to Gillingham on Friday and Saturday nights
25 October 1996 - Service N60 introduced Victoria to Hemel Hempstead
25 April 1997 – revised to operate Victoria to St Albans City Station
23 July 1999 - Service N81 withdrawn between Bexleyheath and Gillingham
23 July 1999 - Service N60 withdrawn between Watford Junction and St Albans and the return journeys operated from Watford Junction to Baker Street where it changed its number to service N80 to Gravesend where one journey changed its number again to service N82 to Gillingham
23 July 1999 – service N80 introduced Baker Street to Gravesend
28 January 2001 - Service N60 withdrawn and service N80 operated Trafalgar Square to Gravesend where it changed its number to service N82 to Gillingham
19 May 2002 - services N80 and N82 and thus night services to Gravesend and Gillingham are withdrawn.

Night buses run to Gillingham between 19 October 1990 and 19 May 2002.

Brian Creasey

[redexpress]

Jul 31, 2019 18:08:08 GMT localet44 said:

Jul 30, 2019 23:46:27 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

here it is! londonbusesbyadam.zenfolio.com/p1055277597/h2F7A9AD7#h2f7a9ad7

There was a weekend NX1 service to Gillingham run by London Central between October 1990 and October 1993 - it made very few stops within London: www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/nx1.html

Then the nightly N81 (a stopping service) was introduced, partly replacing the old N72 to Dartford, slogging its way out to Gravesend (even on weeknights for the first couple of years) and still with one Fri/Sat trip out to Gillingham. (Those trips into deepest Kent must have been a commercial enterprise, surely?) www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/n081-2.html

But when the N81 was trimmed back to Crayford in 1999, there was for a short while another commerical service, the N80, which was a bit like the old NX1 but with a few more stops in London, including the Sun-in-the-Sands roundabout. I used to get it home a fair bit - travelcard holders got cheaper fares. It was paired up with another London Central commercial bus, the N60, which came in from somewhere like St Albans. Pretty sure they never lasted for more than a year. (Searching around, I see that redexpress mentioned it here: tangytango.proboards.com/post/508803/thread)

Three years later, the N81 was replaced by the N89 and that's the way it's stayed since.

I see that my photos of the night buses in Gillingham have come to light.

Here is a summary of the night services to Gillingham [including details of N60] -

19 October 1991 – service NX1 introduced Trafalgar Sqaure to Gillingham
8 October 1993 – service NX1 withdrawn
8 October 1993 - Service N81 introduced Victoria to Crayford with journey extended to Gillingham on Friday and Saturday nights
25 October 1996 - Service N60 introduced Victoria to Hemel Hempstead
25 April 1997 – revised to operate Victoria to St Albans City Station
23 July 1999 - Service N81 withdrawn between Bexleyheath and Gillingham
23 July 1999 - Service N60 withdrawn between Watford Junction and St Albans and the return journeys operated from Watford Junction to Baker Street where it changed its number to service N80 to Gravesend where one journey changed its number again to service N82 to Gillingham
23 July 1999 – service N80 introduced Baker Street to Gravesend
28 January 2001 - Service N60 withdrawn and service N80 operated Trafalgar Square to Gravesend where it changed its number to service N82 to Gillingham
19 May 2002 - services N80 and N82 and thus night services to Gravesend and Gillingham are withdrawn.

Night buses run to Gillingham between 19 October 1991 and 19 May 2002.

Brian Creasey

Thanks for this, I had quite a few gaps in my knowledge of these routes.  Just one small point, I believe the NX1 was introduced on 19 October 1990 rather than 1991.

[stuckonthe486]

Gosh - thank you localet44 and redexpress for filling in several gaps in my memory no doubt exacerbated by cold drinks and bad dancing before catching the bus! I think for a generation of SE Londoners that bus stop outside Canada House (bus stop V?) was a rite of passage. Mention of the N70 brought back some memories, it never seemed a very popular bus when it got moved to Norwood Junction. Feels as if one thing that happened after the creation of TfL was that the night bus network settled down and then was built upon, which may be why some of the more recent (non-Night Tube) cuts seem such a big loss.

One thing I remember seeing from that bus stop outside Canada House: here was also a Routemaster-operated night service (maybe with RMCs?) for a while - H29 perhaps? - that went to somewhere like Harlow in the mid/late 90s, picking up outside the National Gallery along with the north London buses. Can anyone shed some light on that?

[redexpress]

Aug 1, 2019 0:01:31 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Gosh - thank you localet44 and redexpress for filling in several gaps in my memory no doubt exacerbated by cold drinks and bad dancing before catching the bus! I think for a generation of SE Londoners that bus stop outside Canada House (bus stop V?) was a rite of passage. Mention of the N70 brought back some memories, it never seemed a very popular bus when it got moved to Norwood Junction. Feels as if one thing that happened after the creation of TfL was that the night bus network settled down and then was built upon, which may be why some of the more recent (non-Night Tube) cuts seem such a big loss.

One thing I remember seeing from that bus stop outside Canada House: here was also a Routemaster-operated night service (maybe with RMCs?) for a while - H29 perhaps? - that went to somewhere like Harlow in the mid/late 90s, picking up outside the National Gallery along with the north London buses. Can anyone shed some light on that?

Unfortunately the H29 was slightly before my time but I did find this pic of a couple of RMs blinded for the service while on display at a rally.

Mention of those bus stops at Trafalgar Square only reminds me of one thing - the stench of those dodgy hot dogs   It was the National Gallery stop for me, for the north London routes.  Many of those routes would have justified a 10-minute frequency at weekends, but they were only half-hourly at best (except N29), and the crush to get on was something else...

[enviroPB]

Jul 30, 2019 11:43:40 GMT southlondonbus said:

There was at one point a proposed night bus review that never seemed to happen. This was expected after the night tube bus review that bought us the N199 and weekend 154, 486 etc.

I was expecting that review to return to the notion of the N prefix in some cases as tfl realised the potential efficacy (savings) of 1 N route rather then we or 3 24h routes.

That "review" was one of the things Sadiq said when coming into the Mayor's office one he got elected. TfL's savage predictions of underused, superfluous capacity with night routes once the Night Tube came into effect were to be culled in sync with the introduction of 17 weekend 24-hour routes, 2 daily 24 hour routes and one new night route (the N199). However none of the Night Tube lines started on September 12th 2015 as planned, herego this review to monitor usage of routes once the Night Tube had started.

In all reality, there was no dynamic review, just a staggering of vicious cuts already decided by TfL before Night Tube. I'm pretty sure that 'review' excuse was given to the residents along the 154 route when they asked for the route to run all nights of the week. It's almost 4 years since the 154N has been operating, I wonder if locals will think again to call for the weekend 24-hour service to be upgraded. 

[rif153]

Aug 1, 2019 17:54:13 GMT enviroPB said:

Jul 30, 2019 11:43:40 GMT southlondonbus said:

There was at one point a proposed night bus review that never seemed to happen. This was expected after the night tube bus review that bought us the N199 and weekend 154, 486 etc.

I was expecting that review to return to the notion of the N prefix in some cases as tfl realised the potential efficacy (savings) of 1 N route rather then we or 3 24h routes.

That "review" was one of the things Sadiq said when coming into the Mayor's office one he got elected. TfL's savage predictions of underused, superfluous capacity with night routes once the Night Tube came into effect were to be culled in sync with the introduction of 17 weekend 24-hour routes, 2 daily 24 hour routes and one new night route (the N199). However none of the Night Tube lines started on September 12th 2015 as planned, herego this review to monitor usage of routes once the Night Tube had started.

In all reality, there was no dynamic review, just a staggering of vicious cuts already decided by TfL before Night Tube. I'm pretty sure that 'review' excuse was given to the residents along the 154 route when they asked for the route to run all nights of the week. It's almost 4 years since the 154N has been operating, I wonder if locals will think again to call for the weekend 24-hour service to be upgraded. 

Talking of the N199, I expect some rationalisation with night buses in Canada Water, having the N1, 47, 188, N199, and N381 is excessive. The 188, and N381 both have common territory with the Jubilee line giving TfL scope to cut one. I hear the N381 is very lightly used so I wonder if the N381 will be cutback to either London Bridge or Canada Water.

[stuckonthe486]

Aug 1, 2019 7:04:47 GMT redexpress said:

Aug 1, 2019 0:01:31 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

Gosh - thank you localet44 and redexpress for filling in several gaps in my memory no doubt exacerbated by cold drinks and bad dancing before catching the bus! I think for a generation of SE Londoners that bus stop outside Canada House (bus stop V?) was a rite of passage. Mention of the N70 brought back some memories, it never seemed a very popular bus when it got moved to Norwood Junction. Feels as if one thing that happened after the creation of TfL was that the night bus network settled down and then was built upon, which may be why some of the more recent (non-Night Tube) cuts seem such a big loss.

One thing I remember seeing from that bus stop outside Canada House: here was also a Routemaster-operated night service (maybe with RMCs?) for a while - H29 perhaps? - that went to somewhere like Harlow in the mid/late 90s, picking up outside the National Gallery along with the north London buses. Can anyone shed some light on that?

Unfortunately the H29 was slightly before my time but I did find this pic of a couple of RMs blinded for the service while on display at a rally.

Mention of those bus stops at Trafalgar Square only reminds me of one thing - the stench of those dodgy hot dogs   It was the National Gallery stop for me, for the north London routes.  Many of those routes would have justified a 10-minute frequency at weekends, but they were only half-hourly at best (except N29), and the crush to get on was something else...

Ah-ha! Thank you!

I can still smell those fried onions now...