Night Buses

[localet44]

Jul 31, 2019 20:41:14 GMT redexpress said:

Jul 31, 2019 18:08:08 GMT localet44 said:

I see that my photos of the night buses in Gillingham have come to light.

Here is a summary of the night services to Gillingham [including details of N60] -

19 October 1991 – service NX1 introduced Trafalgar Sqaure to Gillingham
8 October 1993 – service NX1 withdrawn
8 October 1993 - Service N81 introduced Victoria to Crayford with journey extended to Gillingham on Friday and Saturday nights
25 October 1996 - Service N60 introduced Victoria to Hemel Hempstead
25 April 1997 – revised to operate Victoria to St Albans City Station
23 July 1999 - Service N81 withdrawn between Bexleyheath and Gillingham
23 July 1999 - Service N60 withdrawn between Watford Junction and St Albans and the return journeys operated from Watford Junction to Baker Street where it changed its number to service N80 to Gravesend where one journey changed its number again to service N82 to Gillingham
23 July 1999 – service N80 introduced Baker Street to Gravesend
28 January 2001 - Service N60 withdrawn and service N80 operated Trafalgar Square to Gravesend where it changed its number to service N82 to Gillingham
19 May 2002 - services N80 and N82 and thus night services to Gravesend and Gillingham are withdrawn.

Night buses run to Gillingham between 19 October 1991 and 19 May 2002.

Brian Creasey

Thanks for this, I had quite a few gaps in my knowledge of these routes.  Just one small point, I believe the NX1 was introduced on 19 October 1990 rather than 1991.

Yes you are right - typo on my behalf.

Thank you for correction

[southlondonbus]

There was talks of the entire 381 being withdrawn between Canada Water and Waterloo with a new route covering the central section. I guess any changes to the N381 would happen then. I ironically the 24h 47 was created to help with loadings in Shoreditch which have really eased with the night LO. I do agree I can see something being looked at there now. Maybe go back to the N47 would be good.

[rif153]

Aug 1, 2019 20:41:58 GMT southlondonbus said:

There was talks of the entire 381 being withdrawn between Canada Water and Waterloo with a new route covering the central section. I guess any changes to the N381 would happen then. I ironically the 24h 47 was created to help with loadings in Shoreditch which have really eased with the night LO. I do agree I can see something being looked at there now. Maybe go back to the N47 would be good.

The poor 47 has been killed by the Oveground. I think we'll see the 47 cutback to Liverpool Street with the impening cycle superhighway works on Tooley Street. However, the 47's dour frequency is an odd ordeal, I see 47's arriving at Canada Water from the south carrying crush loads but I see 47's leaving heading towards Central London half full, if that. Returning to the N47 would be a good idea, the night Overground will allow South East Londoners to connect to the N47 at Canada Water. I actually think the 47 should have some Canada Water shorts given the disparity of demand between each end of the route. 

[southlondonbus]

Yes clearly the 47 is a good feeder to the Jubilee line for Lewisham and Catford. The 199 is a bit longer and has its own passengers from Creek Road and Pepys Estate so also acts as a good feeder. Once at Canada water options of the Jubilee line and LO mean that the 47 plus the 381 from the Rotherhithe Tunnel Roundabout to LB is more then enough for demand north of Canada Water.

[6HP502C]

There is a little bit of a story behind the current structure of those night routes and the main cause was the explosion in demand from Shoreditch over the years.

The old N35 was under severe pressure. The Northern Line and East London Line were carting thousands of people into the Shoreditch area and the only public transport within a mile's radius of the area to take them back anywhere vaguely in south London was the N35. The southbound N35s would be virtually empty on arrival at Old Street station and be packed up to the windscreen by Shoreditch High Street, leaving crowds behind at every stop as far as the Elephant. I chose a completely random journey to record a typical trip on a Saturday night - www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2A53lpIA4o

The N35 needed help. The N47 was also overloaded with buses already packed by the time they reached Monument. 24 houring the 47 to service Shoreditch was a no-brainer to relieve both routes, but the issue with that was the N47 was picking up significant numbers of people in Central London so those links could not be lost. Long story short, the 47 was 24 houred and the N199 was born to replace the N47.

Since, Night Tube has come in and then Night Overground came in - the latter is most definitely well used from Shoreditch southbound! The 35 was reduced accordingly. There probably are a lot of night buses operating on the London Bridge to Canada Water corridor now so who knows what will happen in the future.

The 47 is useful on the map but the running times are generous to an extreme level to put it mildly. Northbound it's glacially slow south of Deptford and it's common to see drivers choosing to challenge fare evaders because of boredom caused by having way too much running time!

Aug 1, 2019 18:05:01 GMT rif153 said:

Talking of the N199, I expect some rationalisation with night buses in Canada Water, having the N1, 47, 188, N199, and N381 is excessive. The 188, and N381 both have common territory with the Jubilee line giving TfL scope to cut one. I hear the N381 is very lightly used so I wonder if the N381 will be cutback to either London Bridge or Canada Water.

The N1 doesn't go to Canada Water. The 188 has its own user base and offers useful unique links at night. The 47, N199 and N381 are probably worthy of a bit of debate but they are used from Canada Water - I've seen N199s leaving there after 3am with well over 50 people on board. There's little to be achieved by cutting the N381 back but again, who knows what the night network will look like in a few years time. Personally I'm not against there being "hubs" like Canada Water, if the links offered are well used by people!

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2019 18:08:08 GMT localet44 said:

Jul 30, 2019 23:46:27 GMT stuckonthe486 said:

here it is! londonbusesbyadam.zenfolio.com/p1055277597/h2F7A9AD7#h2f7a9ad7

There was a weekend NX1 service to Gillingham run by London Central between October 1990 and October 1993 - it made very few stops within London: www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/nx1.html

Then the nightly N81 (a stopping service) was introduced, partly replacing the old N72 to Dartford, slogging its way out to Gravesend (even on weeknights for the first couple of years) and still with one Fri/Sat trip out to Gillingham. (Those trips into deepest Kent must have been a commercial enterprise, surely?) www.londonbuses.co.uk/_routes/night/n081-2.html

But when the N81 was trimmed back to Crayford in 1999, there was for a short while another commerical service, the N80, which was a bit like the old NX1 but with a few more stops in London, including the Sun-in-the-Sands roundabout. I used to get it home a fair bit - travelcard holders got cheaper fares. It was paired up with another London Central commercial bus, the N60, which came in from somewhere like St Albans. Pretty sure they never lasted for more than a year. (Searching around, I see that redexpress mentioned it here: tangytango.proboards.com/post/508803/thread)

Three years later, the N81 was replaced by the N89 and that's the way it's stayed since.

I see that my photos of the night buses in Gillingham have come to light.

Here is a summary of the night services to Gillingham [including details of N60] -

19 October 1990 – service NX1 introduced Trafalgar Sqaure to Gillingham   [date corrected - BCC]
8 October 1993 – service NX1 withdrawn
8 October 1993 - Service N81 introduced Victoria to Crayford with journey extended to Gillingham on Friday and Saturday nights
25 October 1996 - Service N60 introduced Victoria to Hemel Hempstead
25 April 1997 – revised to operate Victoria to St Albans City Station
23 July 1999 - Service N81 withdrawn between Bexleyheath and Gillingham
23 July 1999 - Service N60 withdrawn between Watford Junction and St Albans and the return journeys operated from Watford Junction to Baker Street where it changed its number to service N80 to Gravesend where one journey changed its number again to service N82 to Gillingham
23 July 1999 – service N80 introduced Baker Street to Gravesend
28 January 2001 - Service N60 withdrawn and service N80 operated Trafalgar Square to Gravesend where it changed its number to service N82 to Gillingham
19 May 2002 - services N80 and N82 and thus night services to Gravesend and Gillingham are withdrawn.

Night buses run to Gillingham between 19 October 1990 and 19 May 2002.

Brian Creasey

I hope the superb commercial department at Go Ahead relaunch this service to Gravesend at least. Maybe this time, Shoreditch to Gillingham

[vjaska]

Aug 4, 2019 20:03:21 GMT @rgd976 said:

Jul 31, 2019 18:08:08 GMT localet44 said:

I see that my photos of the night buses in Gillingham have come to light.

Here is a summary of the night services to Gillingham [including details of N60] -

19 October 1990 – service NX1 introduced Trafalgar Sqaure to Gillingham   [date corrected - BCC]
8 October 1993 – service NX1 withdrawn
8 October 1993 - Service N81 introduced Victoria to Crayford with journey extended to Gillingham on Friday and Saturday nights
25 October 1996 - Service N60 introduced Victoria to Hemel Hempstead
25 April 1997 – revised to operate Victoria to St Albans City Station
23 July 1999 - Service N81 withdrawn between Bexleyheath and Gillingham
23 July 1999 - Service N60 withdrawn between Watford Junction and St Albans and the return journeys operated from Watford Junction to Baker Street where it changed its number to service N80 to Gravesend where one journey changed its number again to service N82 to Gillingham
23 July 1999 – service N80 introduced Baker Street to Gravesend
28 January 2001 - Service N60 withdrawn and service N80 operated Trafalgar Square to Gravesend where it changed its number to service N82 to Gillingham
19 May 2002 - services N80 and N82 and thus night services to Gravesend and Gillingham are withdrawn.

Night buses run to Gillingham between 19 October 1990 and 19 May 2002.

Brian Creasey

I hope the superb commercial department at Go Ahead relaunch this service to Gravesend at least. Maybe this time, Shoreditch to Gillingham

I can't see it working in this day & age - I know I sound like a broken record but the minicab service on the edge of London and beyond is well established and far more used than in Inner London where although it sees many people, it's still not on the scale of public transport. If the N80 & N82 failed during times where money was a plenty, why would it work during times of awful austerity fostered upon us by this awful government?

[I-Azusio-I]

Aug 4, 2019 18:35:46 GMT 6HP502C said:

The N1 doesn't go to Canada Water. The 188 has its own user base and offers useful unique links at night. The 47, N199 and N381 are probably worthy of a bit of debate but they are used from Canada Water - I've seen N199s leaving there after 3am with well over 50 people on board. There's little to be achieved by cutting the N381 back but again, who knows what the night network will look like in a few years time. Personally I'm not against there being "hubs" like Canada Water, if the links offered are well used by people!

With Surrey Quays set to be restructured next year (Bestwood Street, Bush Road, Lower Road & Rotherhithe Old Road made two-way for CS4, potential demolishing of the shopping centre and the closure of the bus-only path to Deal Porters Way), I do wonder if the re-routing for N1 to serve Canada Water will be on the cards seeing as it will possibly have to skip Surrey Quays entirely.

[southlondonbus]

With all that work I wonder if there will be a day or night route pulled out altogether from the area.

[Deleted]

Aug 4, 2019 23:22:53 GMT vjaska said:

Aug 4, 2019 20:03:21 GMT @rgd976 said:

I hope the superb commercial department at Go Ahead relaunch this service to Gravesend at least. Maybe this time, Shoreditch to Gillingham

I can't see it working in this day & age - I know I sound like a broken record but the minicab service on the edge of London and beyond is well established and far more used than in Inner London where although it sees many people, it's still not on the scale of public transport. If the N80 & N82 failed during times where money was a plenty, why would it work during times of awful austerity fostered upon us by this awful government?

I think it may work at weekends. The late night trains from London Bridge out east, and early trains heading in, are well used. Crucially, at weekend mornings the trains don’t run as early. If they got the routing right, it is possible to cater for late night workers / clubbers and coming back in , early morning workers. There are many shift workers buying / renting in new developments springing up around Gravesend , Ebbsfleet who work in the London area . Some priced out precisely due to austerity and lack of affordable homes within London boroughs,

[busman]

Aug 4, 2019 23:22:53 GMT vjaska said:

Aug 4, 2019 20:03:21 GMT @rgd976 said:

I hope the superb commercial department at Go Ahead relaunch this service to Gravesend at least. Maybe this time, Shoreditch to Gillingham

I can't see it working in this day & age - I know I sound like a broken record but the minicab service on the edge of London and beyond is well established and far more used than in Inner London where although it sees many people, it's still not on the scale of public transport. If the N80 & N82 failed during times where money was a plenty, why would it work during times of awful austerity fostered upon us by this awful government?

Minicabs and uber are well established throughout London too. I don’t see that as a reason to be resistant to changing the status quo. What has changed though is the night time economy. Back in 1990-2001 there was a thriving late night/early morning clubbing scene which would have attracted punters to night bus services. The digital generation are not so inclined to drink and go to all nighter raves. Also supermarket alcohol is way cheaper these days than in pubs. Pubs and clubs are shutting all over the country, so I would question the demand for such a service. I would look at TfL night services as far as Dartford because there definitely seems to be late night demand along the 96 route. For places further afield perhaps TfL could encourage commercial bids for night time bus services into neighbouring counties to cover gaps between last and first trains. If there is a business case for such routes, then the market will fill the gap.

[vjaska]

Aug 5, 2019 10:20:29 GMT busman said:

Aug 4, 2019 23:22:53 GMT vjaska said:

I can't see it working in this day & age - I know I sound like a broken record but the minicab service on the edge of London and beyond is well established and far more used than in Inner London where although it sees many people, it's still not on the scale of public transport. If the N80 & N82 failed during times where money was a plenty, why would it work during times of awful austerity fostered upon us by this awful government?

Minicabs and uber are well established throughout London too. I don’t see that as a reason to be resistant to changing the status quo. What has changed though is the night time economy. Back in 1990-2001 there was a thriving late night/early morning clubbing scene which would have attracted punters to night bus services. The digital generation are not so inclined to drink and go to all nighter raves. Also supermarket alcohol is way cheaper these days than in pubs. Pubs and clubs are shutting all over the country, so I would question the demand for such a service. I would look at TfL night services as far as Dartford because there definitely seems to be late night demand along the 96 route. For places further afield perhaps TfL could encourage commercial bids for night time bus services into neighbouring counties to cover gaps between last and first trains. If there is a business case for such routes, then the market will fill the gap.

In my post, I mentioned that they are well used in Inner London as well but the difference here is there has been a well established night bus network at least 40 years strong roughly when compared to the outskirts and beyond. I agree that something like a N96 to Dartford is fine, preferably starting from North Greenwich but otherwise, I genuinely can’t see anything else working.

[southlondonbus]

And even the I would start by making the N96 a weekend only service.

[londonboy71]

New N282 :
Ealing Broadway West Ealing Hanwell Ealing Hospital Greenford Road Greenford Broadway Yeading Northolt Eastcote Lane Rayners Lane North Harrow Pinner Northwood Mount Vernon Hospital .
30 mins from G
N7 : Withdrawn Yeading to Northolt and reroute to run West End Road Ruislip Station
120 : Night service introduced Fri Sat nights Southall to Hounslow

[britishguy54]

145: Full Night Route on Weekdays and weekends

174: Full Night Route (Only to New Road), replacing N86 to Romford-Harold Hill

N86: Re-routed via Emerson Park, Hornchurch, Upminster Bridge and Upminster, giving a new Night Route east of Romford