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Post by Connor on Oct 19, 2024 2:42:51 GMT
I thought I'd propose a few changes to routes in the Kidbrooke/Shooters Hill area, both areas that from my observations that have got much busier in recent years yet have not seem much improvement in bus services (with the exception of the 335 a few years back).
89 - New Cross Bus Garage to Bexleyheath Bus Garage
The 89 would be rerouted at Shooters Hill Road to continue down the A2 to Deptford Bridge DLR Station, New Cross Station/ New Cross Gate Station and NX bus garage. A route from the Shooters Hill corridor across Blackheath to connect with Deptford and New Cross would be very useful, and would also assist the very busy 53 along it's lone section. Blackheath to New Cross is prone to traffic so the route would be cut back from Slade Green Station to BX, with that section replaced by an extension of the 269.
178 - Lewisham Station to Woodlands Estate
The 178 would be curtailed at Shooters Hill Road to continue to Blackheath Village and Lewisham Station, replacing the 89 over this section. As a result of the route being much shorter than its current form, it would be extended at the Woolwich end, via Woolwich Elizabeth line Station, Plumstead Road, Plumstead Station, Griffin Road, Waverley Crescent, Plumstead Common then via the current 291 via the Woodlands Estate loop. This would allow the 291 to be extended further in the south east direction- (better use of resources but that's a conversation for another day) while also alleviating overcrowding on the 51/53/291.
244 - Thamesmead Town Centre to Kidbrooke, Moorefield Way.
Route curtailed away from Queen Elizabeth Hospital and extended to Kidbrooke, Moorfield Way via Corelli Road, Broad Walk (served by a bus route for the first time), Rochester Way/Kidbrooke Way, Kidbrooke Station, Tudway Road loop and terminating at the 335/B16 bus stand. This maintains the Kidbrooke to Woolwich link lost by the 178 changes, while taking a quicker route and serving a new area. Thamesmead to Abbey Wood section is cut with no replacement due to the sufficient buses on that section.
335 - North Greenwich to Lewisham Station
A simple extention of this short route, replacing the current 178 along Kidbrooke Park Road, Kidbrooke Station, Eltham Road to Lewisham Station. Rerouted northbound via Kidbrooke Park Road instead of Rochester Way to follow the 178 instead of the 132. I think it would also be worth looking to reroute to fully use Weigall Road, giving it a bus service and making the route slightly more direct though I'm not familiar if there any any road restrictions in that area.
B16 - Bexleyheath Bus Garage to North Greenwich
This is to assist the very busy 132 between North Greenwich and Eltham.
From Eltham Road, it would go straight up Kidbrooke Park Road (eliminating the Tudway Road loop and the Moorehead Way section), stopping at Kidbrooke Station/ Cranfield Walk, then onto the A2 non-stop to Blackwall Lane, with just a stop at Boord Street before terminating at Noeth Greenwich. This creates an even faster link between North Greenwich than the 335.
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Post by mb171 on Oct 19, 2024 6:55:40 GMT
I thought I'd propose a few changes to routes in the Kidbrooke/Shooters Hill area, both areas that from my observations that have got much busier in recent years yet have not seem much improvement in bus services (with the exception of the 335 a few years back). 89 - New Cross Bus Garage to Bexleyheath Bus GarageThe 89 would be rerouted at Shooters Hill Road to continue down the A2 to Deptford Bridge DLR Station, New Cross Station/ New Cross Gate Station and NX bus garage. A route from the Shooters Hill corridor across Blackheath to connect with Deptford and New Cross would be very useful, and would also assist the very busy 53 along it's lone section. Blackheath to New Cross is prone to traffic so the route would be cut back from Slade Green Station to BX, with that section replaced by an extension of the 269. 178 - Lewisham Station to Woodlands EstateThe 178 would be curtailed at Shooters Hill Road to continue to Blackheath Village and Lewisham Station, replacing the 89 over this section. As a result of the route being much shorter than its current form, it would be extended at the Woolwich end, via Woolwich Elizabeth line Station, Plumstead Road, Plumstead Station, Griffin Road, Waverley Crescent, Plumstead Common then via the current 291 via the Woodlands Estate loop. This would allow the 291 to be extended further in the south east direction- (better use of resources but that's a conversation for another day) while also alleviating overcrowding on the 51/53/291. 244 - Thamesmead Town Centre to Kidbrooke, Moorefield Way. Route curtailed away from Queen Elizabeth Hospital and extended to Kidbrooke, Moorfield Way via Corelli Road, Broad Walk (served by a bus route for the first time), Rochester Way/Kidbrooke Way, Kidbrooke Station, Tudway Road loop and terminating at the 335/B16 bus stand. This maintains the Kidbrooke to Woolwich link lost by the 178 changes, while taking a quicker route and serving a new area. Thamesmead to Abbey Wood section is cut with no replacement due to the sufficient buses on that section. 335 - North Greenwich to Lewisham StationA simple extention of this short route, replacing the current 178 along Kidbrooke Park Road, Kidbrooke Station, Eltham Road to Lewisham Station. Rerouted northbound via Kidbrooke Park Road instead of Rochester Way to follow the 178 instead of the 132. I think it would also be worth looking to reroute to fully use Weigall Road, giving it a bus service and making the route slightly more direct though I'm not familiar if there any any road restrictions in that area. B16 - Bexleyheath Bus Garage to North Greenwich This is to assist the very busy 132 between North Greenwich and Eltham. From Eltham Road, it would go straight up Kidbrooke Park Road (eliminating the Tudway Road loop and the Moorehead Way section), stopping at Kidbrooke Station/ Cranfield Walk, then onto the A2 non-stop to Blackwall Lane, with just a stop at Boord Street before terminating at Noeth Greenwich. This creates an even faster link between North Greenwich than the 335. These suggestions look reasonable but I'd send the 178 to Thamesmead via the 472 route just because it would provide Lewisham and Thamesmead with a direct link. |
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Post by B9TL205 on Oct 19, 2024 7:21:35 GMT
Some Changes to the 25: Route 25 - Stratford Bus Station to Oxford Circus (6-7 bph) Route (??) - Ilford, Hainault Street to Aldgate Bus Station (7-8 bph) The 8 and 425 can stay the same to help the overlapping routes. 86 extended west to Bow Church or even the likes of Old Ford, Roman Road Market instead of a new route, I think would be better 86 is long enough as it is |
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Post by DT 11 on Oct 19, 2024 8:56:21 GMT
I thought I'd propose a few changes to routes in the Kidbrooke/Shooters Hill area, both areas that from my observations that have got much busier in recent years yet have not seem much improvement in bus services (with the exception of the 335 a few years back). 89 - New Cross Bus Garage to Bexleyheath Bus GarageThe 89 would be rerouted at Shooters Hill Road to continue down the A2 to Deptford Bridge DLR Station, New Cross Station/ New Cross Gate Station and NX bus garage. A route from the Shooters Hill corridor across Blackheath to connect with Deptford and New Cross would be very useful, and would also assist the very busy 53 along it's lone section. Blackheath to New Cross is prone to traffic so the route would be cut back from Slade Green Station to BX, with that section replaced by an extension of the 269. 178 - Lewisham Station to Woodlands EstateThe 178 would be curtailed at Shooters Hill Road to continue to Blackheath Village and Lewisham Station, replacing the 89 over this section. As a result of the route being much shorter than its current form, it would be extended at the Woolwich end, via Woolwich Elizabeth line Station, Plumstead Road, Plumstead Station, Griffin Road, Waverley Crescent, Plumstead Common then via the current 291 via the Woodlands Estate loop. This would allow the 291 to be extended further in the south east direction- (better use of resources but that's a conversation for another day) while also alleviating overcrowding on the 51/53/291. 244 - Thamesmead Town Centre to Kidbrooke, Moorefield Way. Route curtailed away from Queen Elizabeth Hospital and extended to Kidbrooke, Moorfield Way via Corelli Road, Broad Walk (served by a bus route for the first time), Rochester Way/Kidbrooke Way, Kidbrooke Station, Tudway Road loop and terminating at the 335/B16 bus stand. This maintains the Kidbrooke to Woolwich link lost by the 178 changes, while taking a quicker route and serving a new area. Thamesmead to Abbey Wood section is cut with no replacement due to the sufficient buses on that section. 335 - North Greenwich to Lewisham StationA simple extention of this short route, replacing the current 178 along Kidbrooke Park Road, Kidbrooke Station, Eltham Road to Lewisham Station. Rerouted northbound via Kidbrooke Park Road instead of Rochester Way to follow the 178 instead of the 132. I think it would also be worth looking to reroute to fully use Weigall Road, giving it a bus service and making the route slightly more direct though I'm not familiar if there any any road restrictions in that area. B16 - Bexleyheath Bus Garage to North Greenwich This is to assist the very busy 132 between North Greenwich and Eltham. From Eltham Road, it would go straight up Kidbrooke Park Road (eliminating the Tudway Road loop and the Moorehead Way section), stopping at Kidbrooke Station/ Cranfield Walk, then onto the A2 non-stop to Blackwall Lane, with just a stop at Boord Street before terminating at Noeth Greenwich. This creates an even faster link between North Greenwich than the 335. These suggestions look reasonable but I'd send the 178 to Thamesmead via the 472 route just because it would provide Lewisham and Thamesmead with a direct link. The 89 barely even makes it to Lewisham in peak times so I disagree with extending it. The 178 to Thamesmead I agree removing it from Lewisham is a bad idea. 335 I disagree and should not be extended to Lewisham overall it seems to pop up a lot that the 335 is too short look how many years the W7 has worked lol… I got on one the other day that was already half full at the Royal Standard and was full by Westcombe Park Station. The North Greenwich area will definitely need more bus routes when those new flats are live so some new routes may be needed with existing ones unchanged. Funny enough the amount of Idiots on the Londoner Facebook when the B16 was recently awarded were complaining why is it not being merged with the 335 what a laughing stock. 244 & 291 shouldn’t be changed if anything the 244 should be double decked. To assist the 132 a new route 332 should be created between Eltham Station-Beckton Station via the Silvertown Tunnel. |
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Post by DW221 on Oct 19, 2024 9:45:05 GMT
Some Changes to the 25: Route 25 - Stratford Bus Station to Oxford Circus (6-7 bph) Route (??) - Ilford, Hainault Street to Aldgate Bus Station (7-8 bph) The 8 and 425 can stay the same to help the overlapping routes. This is my first time talking here in this thread and honestly some suggestions here actually make me laugh. there in literally no need for another route in this section… Romford Road can be awfully congested as it is and thats just with 3 bus routes… Anyway without using the 25, via bus its simply just the 425 and then using 205 from Bow… 25 already has 3 support routes so it doesnt need another. And if you’re that assistant on having support to the 25 the Tube literally exists from Ilford to Central London!!! also 25 was cut from Oxford Circus for a reason it was way too long. Dont see everyones obsession with wanting it back there… |
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Post by DW221 on Oct 19, 2024 9:47:22 GMT
Some Changes to the 25: Route 25 - Stratford Bus Station to Oxford Circus (6-7 bph) Route (??) - Ilford, Hainault Street to Aldgate Bus Station (7-8 bph) The 8 and 425 can stay the same to help the overlapping routes. 86 extended west to Bow Church or even the likes of Old Ford, Roman Road Market instead of a new route, I think would be better This is also just really absurd lol… 86 doesnt even make it to Stratford majority of the time in peaks, realistically it could never cope being extended further… and previously established theres not any demand for another route on much of the 25s lor anyway! Is the 8, 25 or 425 not enough? |
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Post by Trafalgax on Oct 19, 2024 10:26:20 GMT
Some Changes to the 25: Route 25 - Stratford Bus Station to Oxford Circus (6-7 bph) Route (??) - Ilford, Hainault Street to Aldgate Bus Station (7-8 bph) The 8 and 425 can stay the same to help the overlapping routes. Not sure there is need for another route between Stratford and Mile End. Usage of the 25 over that section isn't quite what it used to be. Technically, no route is busy as what it used to be if we’re talking about pre-pandemic. And you’d also be wrong about the Stratford- Mile End section. I’ve seen 25 packed in both directions leading to and away from the city. I believe that if the 25 were to go back to Oxford Circus in this shortened form, it would still be well used even with the Central and Elizabeth Line. |
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Post by sdaniel on Oct 19, 2024 10:53:13 GMT
I like your proposed 25 change from Oxford Circus to Stratford. But I would suggest that 425 runs from Stratford to Meridian Water and is withdrawn between Stratford and Ilford, increasing the frequency on the 86 and also taking the Elizabeth Line as an alternative. I think the 425 was proposed to be extended in the Upper Lea Valley Opportunity Area Planning Framework in 2013, which had a vast variety of ambitious bus changes for the area (I think we should focus on the 5bph 491 first though), though it was only to Tottenham Hale at that point. I agree that a lot of parts of North London are poorly linked to the East (especially Stratford), so a 425 extension, as you proposed, would definitely be great. A 349 to Stratford via Meridian Water would also be great, but it's best not to get into fantasy land here  I think a 349 extension to Hackney Central is enough. Extending the 349 to Stratford would make it long and unreliable especially as it’s coming from Ponders End. For the 425, if it starts from Meridian Water then it can go through Tottenham Hale, Blackhorse Road, Lea Bridge Station, Clapton Pond then from there go to Stratford through its usual way. |
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Post by TB123 on Oct 19, 2024 11:13:51 GMT
I like your proposed 25 change from Oxford Circus to Stratford. But I would suggest that 425 runs from Stratford to Meridian Water and is withdrawn between Stratford and Ilford, increasing the frequency on the 86 and also taking the Elizabeth Line as an alternative. I think the 425 was proposed to be extended in the Upper Lea Valley Opportunity Area Planning Framework in 2013, which had a vast variety of ambitious bus changes for the area (I think we should focus on the 5bph 491 first though), though it was only to Tottenham Hale at that point. I agree that a lot of parts of North London are poorly linked to the East (especially Stratford), so a 425 extension, as you proposed, would definitely be great. A 349 to Stratford via Meridian Water would also be great, but it's best not to get into fantasy land here I'd never seen that paper you mentioned until now....Will pop the buses bit below for those interested On a side note it makes for somewhat depressing reading seeing how many frequency cuts have been made since 2013 in inner London. |
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ZiyQ
Conductor
I always end up saying too much - beware of the waffle posts taking up an entire thread’s page…
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Post by ZiyQ on Oct 19, 2024 11:33:43 GMT
I think the 425 was proposed to be extended in the Upper Lea Valley Opportunity Area Planning Framework in 2013, which had a vast variety of ambitious bus changes for the area (I think we should focus on the 5bph 491 first though), though it was only to Tottenham Hale at that point. I agree that a lot of parts of North London are poorly linked to the East (especially Stratford), so a 425 extension, as you proposed, would definitely be great. A 349 to Stratford via Meridian Water would also be great, but it's best not to get into fantasy land here I think a 349 extension to Hackney Central is enough. Extending the 349 to Stratford would make it long and unreliable especially as it’s coming from Ponders End. For the 425, if it starts from Meridian Water then it can go through Tottenham Hale, Blackhorse Road, Lea Bridge Station, Clapton Pond then from there go to Stratford through its usual way. Ponders End traffic usually isn’t too bad coming Northbound (I’ve seen the corridor almost every day) despite how relatively long it is, so I think that isn’t the main issue here for the 349’s reliability. Routing it along the NCR (with a possible express section) and bus lanes along Watermead Way would help, as well as using the 56’s, 30’s and 388’s routings around Hackney. There may also be some merit in routing the extended 425 via Seven Sisters Station and Stamford Hill, giving some new round-the-corner links, though the Lea Bridge routing does have some merit as well - though it may just be quicker to use the 158 to Stratford and onward links. |
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ZiyQ
Conductor
I always end up saying too much - beware of the waffle posts taking up an entire thread’s page…
Posts: 113
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Post by ZiyQ on Oct 19, 2024 11:36:34 GMT
I think the 425 was proposed to be extended in the Upper Lea Valley Opportunity Area Planning Framework in 2013, which had a vast variety of ambitious bus changes for the area (I think we should focus on the 5bph 491 first though), though it was only to Tottenham Hale at that point. I agree that a lot of parts of North London are poorly linked to the East (especially Stratford), so a 425 extension, as you proposed, would definitely be great. A 349 to Stratford via Meridian Water would also be great, but it's best not to get into fantasy land here I'd never seen that paper you mentioned until now....Will pop the buses bit below for those interested On a side note it makes for somewhat depressing reading seeing how many frequency cuts have been made since 2013 in inner London. I agree - it’s extremely sad to see the frequency of almost every route on there cut, and now most of these proposals seem unrealistic, considering TfL’s current proposals. I originally meant to attach the website to it, but I’ll update my original post with it. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 19, 2024 12:05:02 GMT
I'd never seen that paper you mentioned until now....Will pop the buses bit below for those interested On a side note it makes for somewhat depressing reading seeing how many frequency cuts have been made since 2013 in inner London. I agree - it’s extremely sad to see the frequency of almost every route on there cut, and now most of these proposals seem unrealistic, considering TfL’s current proposals. I originally meant to attach the website to it, but I’ll update my original post with it. In 2013 we didn't have 20mph zones, LTNs pushing everything onto main roads, cycles lanes were far less prominent. Aswell as the fact nearly everyone had to commute to work. |
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Post by vjaska on Oct 19, 2024 13:17:10 GMT
I agree - it’s extremely sad to see the frequency of almost every route on there cut, and now most of these proposals seem unrealistic, considering TfL’s current proposals. I originally meant to attach the website to it, but I’ll update my original post with it. In 2013 we didn't have 20mph zones, LTNs pushing everything onto main roads, cycles lanes were far less prominent. Aswell as the fact nearly everyone had to commute to work. I fail to understand the correlation between 20mph zones & LTN’s with cutting frequencies. Not a fan of either policy but they don’t necessarily impact on cutting a routes frequency back. The working from home argument is a factor for sure but I’m not sure it’s had as big an impact as it was assumed it would do - I still see plenty of very busy buses to & from Central London including the X68 & now SL6 which some suggested should of been axed. Inner London should never have seen almost all the cuts that were made under the last two mayors and it has set it back big time. There are so many routes in this area (as well as in Outer London) that still need increases and austerity, as has been proven so many times, doesn’t work and just leads to decline. |
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Post by wirewiper on Oct 19, 2024 13:33:00 GMT
In 2013 we didn't have 20mph zones, LTNs pushing everything onto main roads, cycles lanes were far less prominent. Aswell as the fact nearly everyone had to commute to work. I fail to understand the correlation between 20mph zones & LTN’s with cutting frequencies. Not a fan of either policy but they don’t necessarily impact on cutting a routes frequency back. The working from home argument is a factor for sure but I’m not sure it’s had as big an impact as it was assumed it would do - I still see plenty of very busy buses to & from Central London including the X68 & now SL6 which some suggested should of been axed. Inner London should never have seen almost all the cuts that were made under the last two mayors and it has set it back big time. There are so many routes in this area (as well as in Outer London) that still need increases and austerity, as has been proven so many times, doesn’t work and just leads to decline. There is a small glimmer of hope. Recently routes have been gaining frequency increases in the evenings, early mornings and Sunday daytimes. These are 'quick wins' which don't impact on the overall PVR as they utilise vehicles that would otherwise be sitting idle, but make a real difference to travel at those times. I also note that route 18's PVR is now 39 (it was 35 until recently) with additional journeys towards Euston in the morning peak. I hope that the habit of incremental PVR increases to allow one or two extra journeys to operate at the busiest times is returning. |
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Post by southlondonbus on Oct 19, 2024 13:51:56 GMT
In 2013 we didn't have 20mph zones, LTNs pushing everything onto main roads, cycles lanes were far less prominent. Aswell as the fact nearly everyone had to commute to work. I fail to understand the correlation between 20mph zones & LTN’s with cutting frequencies. Not a fan of either policy but they don’t necessarily impact on cutting a routes frequency back. The working from home argument is a factor for sure but I’m not sure it’s had as big an impact as it was assumed it would do - I still see plenty of very busy buses to & from Central London including the X68 & now SL6 which some suggested should of been axed. Inner London should never have seen almost all the cuts that were made under the last two mayors and it has set it back big time. There are so many routes in this area (as well as in Outer London) that still need increases and austerity, as has been proven so many times, doesn’t work and just leads to decline. Well if anything is going to make people more likely to switch to the train , Elizabeth line etc it's a slow bus service. I can speak for myself on that one. |
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