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Post by COBO on Apr 19, 2020 10:41:50 GMT
If you were adamant a route between Shepherds Bush & Heathrow Airport was necessary I'd have an entire new route not operated by TFL. The route: (Number is 704) Shepherd's Bush Station (72, 95, 220, 272, 283, 295, 704, N72) Brook Green (72, 220, 283, 295, 704, N72) Hammersmith Bus Station (72, 533, N33, N72) (it is essential Route 704 serves here to gather patronage from other routes, aka people changing from routes) Heathrow Central Bus Station Bus uses A4, and M4 in between Hammersmith & Heathrow Central. Good idea and maybe it can go further to Marble Arch but still think that the X105 still has potential. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 19, 2020 13:05:04 GMT
If you were adamant a route between Shepherds Bush & Heathrow Airport was necessary I'd have an entire new route not operated by TFL. The route: (Number is 704) Shepherd's Bush Station (72, 95, 220, 272, 283, 295, 704, N72) Brook Green (72, 220, 283, 295, 704, N72) Hammersmith Bus Station (72, 533, N33, N72) (it is essential Route 704 serves here to gather patronage from other routes, aka people changing from routes) Heathrow Central Bus Station Bus uses A4, and M4 in between Hammersmith & Heathrow Central. Good idea and maybe it can go further to Marble Arch but still think that the X105 still has potential. That would significantly overbus the Marble arch to Shepherds Bush corridor. The X105 would be way too long in journey times and as mentioned - it would be quicker to take an 607 to Hayes, The Grapes and an X140 to Heathrow. Also, a Southall to Heathrow connection is no longer needed, there is the 105 that appropriately does it and there is Crossrail. Your idea just won't work I'm afraid. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 19, 2020 13:15:34 GMT
The whole point of an express is to basically be direct. The 105 for parts of the route runs through residential roads so the 105 is not a route I would express. I think starting the X105 from Shepherds Bush is largely pointless - fine, the 95/105 were one route 40 years ago, but that is long gone and so are many of the travel patterns that went with it. Jump on a bus down to Hammersmith and you can be at Heathrow well inside an hour, a journey time no X105 could get near once it has fought through Southall etc. 237 & 111 would be comparable at 75 minutes. Journeys like Shepherds Bush to Greenford are quick enough on the 95 up the A40, or there is the Central Line. Shepherds Bush to Southall has the more direct 607. Other posters have made the case for an alternative Shepherds Bush - airport link which I would support in itself. That said, I think the 105 could support an X-variant of sorts. Miss out the right section down Allenby Road, perhaps send it down Lady Margaret Road, or perhaps miss Southall altogether as the traffic there is a problem. The 105 typically takes 15 minutes to get from one side of Southall Broadway to the other, before anything goes wrong - and that isn't serving stops, it is just sitting in traffic. Send it through and it the time penalty will take a lot of the 'express' aspect of the route away. Lots of customer potential there, though - another route could take care of it. Send it through Greenford and up the Ruislip Road, maybe send east it to Hanger Lane, then up Alperton and Wembley. South of Greenford fast from Ruislip Road (White Hart?) via the Parkway. Give it something to do that other TfL links do not already do well. The 105 *is* slow from Heathrow to Greenford. Wembley to Heathrow is two changes of tube, or one via Central London, or a 140 via Harrow. I think it would do ok. I don't think there's enough demand for a Heathrow to Wembley express route. Wembley is a very big hub for buses and although there's lots of people, there is Crossrail. I'm presuming OSIs might work on this journey, but with 2 very major bus corridors serving 2 Picadilly line stations (79, 83, 297, 483 serving Alperton and 18, 92, 182, 204 & H17 serving within close proximity of Sudbury Town) it may be quicker to take a Picadilly line to North Ealing, walk to Ealing Broadway and catch a Crossrail, and this does obviously give more variety as to where to go in Heathrow. There is also the option to catch a Picadilly line to Acton Town and a Picadilly line from there. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 19, 2020 13:59:46 GMT
I think starting the X105 from Shepherds Bush is largely pointless - fine, the 95/105 were one route 40 years ago, but that is long gone and so are many of the travel patterns that went with it. Jump on a bus down to Hammersmith and you can be at Heathrow well inside an hour, a journey time no X105 could get near once it has fought through Southall etc. 237 & 111 would be comparable at 75 minutes. Journeys like Shepherds Bush to Greenford are quick enough on the 95 up the A40, or there is the Central Line. Shepherds Bush to Southall has the more direct 607. Other posters have made the case for an alternative Shepherds Bush - airport link which I would support in itself. That said, I think the 105 could support an X-variant of sorts. Miss out the right section down Allenby Road, perhaps send it down Lady Margaret Road, or perhaps miss Southall altogether as the traffic there is a problem. The 105 typically takes 15 minutes to get from one side of Southall Broadway to the other, before anything goes wrong - and that isn't serving stops, it is just sitting in traffic. Send it through and it the time penalty will take a lot of the 'express' aspect of the route away. Lots of customer potential there, though - another route could take care of it. Send it through Greenford and up the Ruislip Road, maybe send east it to Hanger Lane, then up Alperton and Wembley. South of Greenford fast from Ruislip Road (White Hart?) via the Parkway. Give it something to do that other TfL links do not already do well. The 105 *is* slow from Heathrow to Greenford. Wembley to Heathrow is two changes of tube, or one via Central London, or a 140 via Harrow. I think it would do ok. I don't think there's enough demand for a Heathrow to Wembley express route. Wembley is a very big hub for buses and although there's lots of people, there is Crossrail. I'm presuming OSIs might work on this journey, but with 2 very major bus corridors serving 2 Picadilly line stations (79, 83, 297, 483 serving Alperton and 18, 92, 182, 204 & H17 serving within close proximity of Sudbury Town) it may be quicker to take a Picadilly line to North Ealing, walk to Ealing Broadway and catch a Crossrail, and this does obviously give more variety as to where to go in Heathrow. There is also the option to catch a Picadilly line to Acton Town and a Picadilly line from there. I can't imagine anyone coming from Heathrow walking from North Ealing to Ealing Broadway especially with any luggage in tow even though it's only a 14 min walk or so. Even taking two Piccadilly trains only leaves you at Sudbury meaning the only alternative is to go into London to go back out which is never ideal. |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 19, 2020 14:52:33 GMT
I don't think there's enough demand for a Heathrow to Wembley express route. Wembley is a very big hub for buses and although there's lots of people, there is Crossrail. I'm presuming OSIs might work on this journey, but with 2 very major bus corridors serving 2 Picadilly line stations (79, 83, 297, 483 serving Alperton and 18, 92, 182, 204 & H17 serving within close proximity of Sudbury Town) it may be quicker to take a Picadilly line to North Ealing, walk to Ealing Broadway and catch a Crossrail, and this does obviously give more variety as to where to go in Heathrow. There is also the option to catch a Picadilly line to Acton Town and a Picadilly line from there. I can't imagine anyone coming from Heathrow walking from North Ealing to Ealing Broadway especially with any luggage in tow even though it's only a 14 min walk or so. Even taking two Piccadilly trains only leaves you at Sudbury meaning the only alternative is to go into London to go back out which is never ideal. So you suggest there is demand? Fair enough. |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 19, 2020 15:32:51 GMT
I can't imagine anyone coming from Heathrow walking from North Ealing to Ealing Broadway especially with any luggage in tow even though it's only a 14 min walk or so. Even taking two Piccadilly trains only leaves you at Sudbury meaning the only alternative is to go into London to go back out which is never ideal. So you suggest there is demand? Fair enough. No, I've no idea if their is demand or not as it's not my area, was just thinking if anyone was to do that journey, it's not exactly ideal via the routings me and you was talking about  |
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Post by LondonNorthern on Apr 19, 2020 15:35:00 GMT
So you suggest there is demand? Fair enough. No, I've no idea if their is demand or not as it's not my area, was just thinking if anyone was to do that journey, it's not exactly ideal via the routings me and you was talking about I would agree. |
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Post by COBO on Apr 19, 2020 17:12:33 GMT
Good idea and maybe it can go further to Marble Arch but still think that the X105 still has potential. That would significantly overbus the Marble arch to Shepherds Bush corridor. The X105 would be way too long in journey times and as mentioned - it would be quicker to take an 607 to Hayes, The Grapes and an X140 to Heathrow. Also, a Southall to Heathrow connection is no longer needed, there is the 105 that appropriately does it and there is Crossrail. Your idea just won't work I'm afraid. I’m sorry disagree with your point and so what if there’s already a Southall to Heathrow connection. The 105 is a very busy which route and can do with some help and express route like the X105 can act relief. I can see that my X105 has potential it may not be direct but it can be very useful not all routes have to be direct in order to be useful. The X105 will work. How would a express route overbus the Marble Arch to Shepherds Bush corridor the 390 has just been removed. Routes 94 and 148 are both very routes and a express going from Marble Arch to Heathrow could be very useful and act as relief for routes 94 and 148. |
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Post by COBO on Apr 19, 2020 17:18:28 GMT
I think starting the X105 from Shepherds Bush is largely pointless - fine, the 95/105 were one route 40 years ago, but that is long gone and so are many of the travel patterns that went with it. Jump on a bus down to Hammersmith and you can be at Heathrow well inside an hour, a journey time no X105 could get near once it has fought through Southall etc. 237 & 111 would be comparable at 75 minutes. Journeys like Shepherds Bush to Greenford are quick enough on the 95 up the A40, or there is the Central Line. Shepherds Bush to Southall has the more direct 607. Other posters have made the case for an alternative Shepherds Bush - airport link which I would support in itself. That said, I think the 105 could support an X-variant of sorts. Miss out the right section down Allenby Road, perhaps send it down Lady Margaret Road, or perhaps miss Southall altogether as the traffic there is a problem. The 105 typically takes 15 minutes to get from one side of Southall Broadway to the other, before anything goes wrong - and that isn't serving stops, it is just sitting in traffic. Send it through and it the time penalty will take a lot of the 'express' aspect of the route away. Lots of customer potential there, though - another route could take care of it. Send it through Greenford and up the Ruislip Road, maybe send east it to Hanger Lane, then up Alperton and Wembley. South of Greenford fast from Ruislip Road (White Hart?) via the Parkway. Give it something to do that other TfL links do not already do well. The 105 *is* slow from Heathrow to Greenford. Wembley to Heathrow is two changes of tube, or one via Central London, or a 140 via Harrow. I think it would do ok. I don't think there's enough demand for a Heathrow to Wembley express route. Wembley is a very big hub for buses and although there's lots of people, there is Crossrail. I'm presuming OSIs might work on this journey, but with 2 very major bus corridors serving 2 Picadilly line stations (79, 83, 297, 483 serving Alperton and 18, 92, 182, 204 & H17 serving within close proximity of Sudbury Town) it may be quicker to take a Picadilly line to North Ealing, walk to Ealing Broadway and catch a Crossrail, and this does obviously give more variety as to where to go in Heathrow. There is also the option to catch a Picadilly line to Acton Town and a Picadilly line from there. There might be a demand for a express route from Wembley to Heathrow via Southall. |
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Post by rif153 on Apr 19, 2020 17:30:58 GMT
I don't think there's enough demand for a Heathrow to Wembley express route. Wembley is a very big hub for buses and although there's lots of people, there is Crossrail. I'm presuming OSIs might work on this journey, but with 2 very major bus corridors serving 2 Picadilly line stations (79, 83, 297, 483 serving Alperton and 18, 92, 182, 204 & H17 serving within close proximity of Sudbury Town) it may be quicker to take a Picadilly line to North Ealing, walk to Ealing Broadway and catch a Crossrail, and this does obviously give more variety as to where to go in Heathrow. There is also the option to catch a Picadilly line to Acton Town and a Picadilly line from there. I can't imagine anyone coming from Heathrow walking from North Ealing to Ealing Broadway especially with any luggage in tow even though it's only a 14 min walk or so. Even taking two Piccadilly trains only leaves you at Sudbury meaning the only alternative is to go into London to go back out which is never ideal. I agree, even though the 483 westbound doesn't stop too close to Ealing Broadway station, its far easier to simply get the 483 then use TfL Rail than walking down the road from North Ealing to Ealing Broadway. Whilst I would avoid changes if I were going from Wembley to Heathrow with luggage, I'd think more people would change trains at Ealing Common to get the District Line to Ealing Broadway instead. |
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Post by rif153 on Apr 19, 2020 17:41:25 GMT
That would significantly overbus the Marble arch to Shepherds Bush corridor. The X105 would be way too long in journey times and as mentioned - it would be quicker to take an 607 to Hayes, The Grapes and an X140 to Heathrow. Also, a Southall to Heathrow connection is no longer needed, there is the 105 that appropriately does it and there is Crossrail. Your idea just won't work I'm afraid. I’m sorry disagree with your point and so what if there’s already a Southall to Heathrow connection. The 105 is a very busy which route and can do with some help and express route like the X105 can act relief. I can see that my X105 has potential it may not be direct but it can be very useful not all routes have to be direct in order to be useful. The X105 will work. How would a express route overbus the Marble Arch to Shepherds Bush corridor the 390 has just been removed. Routes 94 and 148 are both very routes and a express going from Marble Arch to Heathrow could be very useful and act as relief for routes 94 and 148. Just because a route is busy it doesn't mean it needs a parallel express route, of the busiest routes in London only the 140 and 207 have parallel express routes, the rest don't. A better alternative may be just to increase the 105's frequency rather than dragging up a route which has been long dead and was severed not only because it was too long and would be a pain to operate reliably with the A40 traffic but also as the demand was once there but clearly isn't as strong as it once was and for those who do want to make a journey down the A40, changing from the 95 to the 105 is hardly difficult when there are numerous common stops. You say not all routes have to be direct to be useful, but indirect routes from A to B are far less likely to attract the same custom that a direct route would. The 94 and 148 are both well used and busy routes there's no doubting that. However, having an X105 start at Marble Arch would not only make it even longer and less reliable but also increase duplication with the Central Line, whilst people may chose to take the X105, the Central Line will always be faster and your X105 would either serve or go close to every Central Line Station between Marble Arch and Greenford. What makes you think that someone from Marble Arch would go to Greenford via Heathrow is beyond me, they certainly would not be in much of a hurry. Also, the traffic along Bayswater Road during the peaks is a nightmare with traffic backed up all the way from Lancaster Gate to Marble Arch, making the X105 yet more unreliable. Finally, coming back to the 94 and 148, 94s leave Marble Arch Station carrying crush loads, but this could easily be combatted by adding a few extra trips on the 94 which would serve the same stops and thus alleviate overcrowding on the 94. |
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Post by COBO on Apr 19, 2020 17:44:59 GMT
I’m sorry disagree with your point and so what if there’s already a Southall to Heathrow connection. The 105 is a very busy which route and can do with some help and express route like the X105 can act relief. I can see that my X105 has potential it may not be direct but it can be very useful not all routes have to be direct in order to be useful. The X105 will work. How would a express route overbus the Marble Arch to Shepherds Bush corridor the 390 has just been removed. Routes 94 and 148 are both very routes and a express going from Marble Arch to Heathrow could be very useful and act as relief for routes 94 and 148. Just because a route is busy it doesn't mean it needs a parallel express route, of the busiest routes in London only the 140 and 207 have parallel express routes, the rest don't. A better alternative may be just to increase the 105's frequency rather than dragging up a route which has been long dead and was severed not only because it was too long and would be a pain to operate reliably with the A40 traffic but also as the demand was once there but clearly isn't as strong as it once was and for those who do want to make a journey down the A40, changing from the 95 to the 105 is hardly difficult when there are numerous common stops. You say not all routes have to be direct to be useful, but indirect routes from A to B are far less likely to attract the same custom that a direct route would. The 94 and 148 are both well used and busy routes there's no doubting that. However, having an X105 start at Marble Arch would not only make it even longer and less reliable but also increase duplication with the Central Line, whilst people may chose to take the X105, the Central Line will always be faster and your X105 would either serve or go close to every Central Line Station between Marble Arch and Greenford. What makes you think that someone from Marble Arch would go to Greenford via Heathrow is beyond me, they certainly would not be in much of a hurry. Also, the traffic along Bayswater Road during the peaks is a nightmare with traffic backed up all the way from Lancaster Gate to Marble Arch, making the X105 yet more unreliable. Finally, coming back to the 94 and 148, 94s leave Marble Arch Station carrying crush loads, but this could easily be combatted by adding a few extra trips on the 94 which would serve the same stops and thus alleviate overcrowding on the 94. How do you know that the rest don’t? The 140 and 207 both have express routes that run parallel that have done very well and I pretty sure the other busy routes in London could also have express routes that run parallel too. I mention nothing about an X105 going to Heathrow I just said that an express route that goes from Heathrow to Marble Arch via Shepherds Bush and Hammersmith aka an extension of Vla6’s route 704 idea. But increasing frequencies don’t work because it always results in more people using the routes. If you increase frequencies on both the 94 and 105 this will just lead to more people going to both routes creating more crush loads. It would be better in having an express route like the 704 running between Heathrow and Marble Arch via Hammersmith could help relief the 94 and express route like the X105 helping to act as relief for the 105. The 182, 186, 253 and 254 attracts a lot of passengers despite being indirect routes. |
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Post by rif153 on Apr 19, 2020 17:49:31 GMT
Just because a route is busy it doesn't mean it needs a parallel express route, of the busiest routes in London only the 140 and 207 have parallel express routes, the rest don't. A better alternative may be just to increase the 105's frequency rather than dragging up a route which has been long dead and was severed not only because it was too long and would be a pain to operate reliably with the A40 traffic but also as the demand was once there but clearly isn't as strong as it once was and for those who do want to make a journey down the A40, changing from the 95 to the 105 is hardly difficult when there are numerous common stops. You say not all routes have to be direct to be useful, but indirect routes from A to B are far less likely to attract the same custom that a direct route would. The 94 and 148 are both well used and busy routes there's no doubting that. However, having an X105 start at Marble Arch would not only make it even longer and less reliable but also increase duplication with the Central Line, whilst people may chose to take the X105, the Central Line will always be faster and your X105 would either serve or go close to every Central Line Station between Marble Arch and Greenford. What makes you think that someone from Marble Arch would go to Greenford via Heathrow is beyond me, they certainly would not be in much of a hurry. Also, the traffic along Bayswater Road during the peaks is a nightmare with traffic backed up all the way from Lancaster Gate to Marble Arch, making the X105 yet more unreliable. Finally, coming back to the 94 and 148, 94s leave Marble Arch Station carrying crush loads, but this could easily be combatted by adding a few extra trips on the 94 which would serve the same stops and thus alleviate overcrowding on the 94. I mention nothing about an X105 going to Heathrow I just said that an express route that goes from Heathrow to Marble Arch via Shepherds Bush and Hammersmith aka an extension of Vla6’s route 704 idea. Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding. However, I agree with Eastlondoner62 that I don't think such a route would work. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 19, 2020 17:50:20 GMT
Just because a route is busy it doesn't mean it needs a parallel express route, of the busiest routes in London only the 140 and 207 have parallel express routes, the rest don't. A better alternative may be just to increase the 105's frequency rather than dragging up a route which has been long dead and was severed not only because it was too long and would be a pain to operate reliably with the A40 traffic but also as the demand was once there but clearly isn't as strong as it once was and for those who do want to make a journey down the A40, changing from the 95 to the 105 is hardly difficult when there are numerous common stops. You say not all routes have to be direct to be useful, but indirect routes from A to B are far less likely to attract the same custom that a direct route would. The 94 and 148 are both well used and busy routes there's no doubting that. However, having an X105 start at Marble Arch would not only make it even longer and less reliable but also increase duplication with the Central Line, whilst people may chose to take the X105, the Central Line will always be faster and your X105 would either serve or go close to every Central Line Station between Marble Arch and Greenford. What makes you think that someone from Marble Arch would go to Greenford via Heathrow is beyond me, they certainly would not be in much of a hurry. Also, the traffic along Bayswater Road during the peaks is a nightmare with traffic backed up all the way from Lancaster Gate to Marble Arch, making the X105 yet more unreliable. Finally, coming back to the 94 and 148, 94s leave Marble Arch Station carrying crush loads, but this could easily be combatted by adding a few extra trips on the 94 which would serve the same stops and thus alleviate overcrowding on the 94. I mention nothing about an X105 going to Heathrow I just said that an express route that goes from Heathrow to Marble Arch via Shepherds Bush and Hammersmith aka A route running all the way from Heathrow to Marble Arch won't work at all, there's too much traffic to even consider it. The Piccadilly Line will already go from Hyde Park Corner, via Hammersmith to Heathrow Airport and you will have Crossrail from Central London soon as well. There's simply too much traffic these days and a route of that length could take hours end to end, whether it's stopping or not. The X68 might cover a similar distance, and starts in Central London. However it currently runs limited hours and if I were a betting man I'd say the route only exists because of legacy and now being too popular to remove without an uprising somewhere. A route in such form would certainly not be introduced today. |
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Post by COBO on Apr 19, 2020 17:56:23 GMT
I mention nothing about an X105 going to Heathrow I just said that an express route that goes from Heathrow to Marble Arch via Shepherds Bush and Hammersmith aka A route running all the way from Heathrow to Marble Arch won't work at all, there's too much traffic to even consider it. The Piccadilly Line will already go from Hyde Park Corner, via Hammersmith to Heathrow Airport and you will have Crossrail from Central London soon as well. There's simply too much traffic these days and a route of that length could take hours end to end, whether it's stopping or not. The X68 might cover a similar distance, and starts in Central London. However it currently runs limited hours and if I were a betting man I'd say the route only exists because of legacy and now being too popular to remove without an uprising somewhere. A route in such form would certainly not be introduced today. Well you say that I think that things might and hope change after Corona lockdown. |
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