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Post by rif153 on Aug 5, 2020 18:32:08 GMT
changes to routes 12, 24, 27 and 176: 12: withdrawn between Regent Street and Oxford Circus, extended to Camden Town via route 24 from Trafalgar Square 27: extended from Chalk Farm Morrisons to Hampstead Heath via route 24, to serve this missed area (the cutback on route 27 to Hammersmith means it can work, and the 12 wont become too long so keep it as far as Camden Town) 176: rerouted from Trafalgar Square to Oxford Circus via route 12 and withdrawn between Leicester Square and Tottenham Court Road. (a new support to the 139, and does not duplicate the 88 and 453 as far as the 12 did, but meets the 453 at E&C and the proposed 12 at Dulwich and inbetween E&C and Camberwell) 24: rerouted from Tottenham Court Road to S’t Paul’s (King Edward Street) via route 8 and withdrawn between Tottenham Court Road (Primark) and Hampstead Heath (bringing existing 25 links back, supporting the 8 and bringing newer links to Westminster/Victoria) also: i also do think 24 has more potential, for a route that is not as long and could be extended south (Battersea) or East (Liverpool Street) but then I think, is it really needed? the new 12 will be considerably longer, but would work as a perfect route, more than the 24 does nowadays. all and all though, this is a whole lot of ££ and would never happen but is more of something that would be of great change and restore some bus links, and bringing new ones. or: keep the 24 and 27 the same reroute the 12 from Trafalgar Square to King Edward Street (S’t Paul’s) via Leicester Square, Tottenham Court Road and then via route 8. reroute the 176 from Trafalgar Square to Oxford Circus via route 12. its much simpler but i prefer ^^^^ idea 1 as the whole reason I came up with these is to change the 24, as it just could do with a change, and with like people getting on the 24 decreasing in many years even before Covid If you meddle with the 24 you get struck by lightning 😂 In all seriousness, I wouldn’t touch the 24, and your 12 extension looks like it might cause issues with length. The 176 might, if anything, benefit with being cut back at the Central London end. I think it might benefit with being withdrawn west of Aldwych, with the 172 replacing it to Tottenham Court Road. Not sufficiently knowledgeable about the 27 to comment, particularly at its northern end. Its a shame that the C2 was cut back from Victoria and subsequently withdrawn as it did provide some handy links and was a faster alternative to the 24 from Camden Town to Victoria. I know some have argued on here that it would have made more sense to cut the 176 back to Elephant and extend the 40 to TCR in its place - not saying I agree with this but its an interesting idea. The 176 provides useful links through the West End and I think that routing should be maintained as it provides a great connection to Leicester Square from the south, its a shame the route no longer reaches Oxford Circus though.
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Post by greg on Aug 5, 2020 19:04:34 GMT
If you meddle with the 24 you get struck by lightning 😂 In all seriousness, I wouldn’t touch the 24, and your 12 extension looks like it might cause issues with length. The 176 might, if anything, benefit with being cut back at the Central London end. I think it might benefit with being withdrawn west of Aldwych, with the 172 replacing it to Tottenham Court Road. Not sufficiently knowledgeable about the 27 to comment, particularly at its northern end. Its a shame that the C2 was cut back from Victoria and subsequently withdrawn as it did provide some handy links and was a faster alternative to the 24 from Camden Town to Victoria. I know some have argued on here that it would have made more sense to cut the 176 back to Elephant and extend the 40 to TCR in its place - not saying I agree with this but its an interesting idea. The 176 provides useful links through the West End and I think that routing should be maintained as it provides a great connection to Leicester Square from the south, its a shame the route no longer reaches Oxford Circus though. Personally, I’d love to see the 40 back at Aldgate, but then go to Shoreditch via Commerical Street (242). Would bring some booming increase, with Brick Lane, Old Spitafields, Shoreditch Boxpark all enroute.
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Post by twobellstogo on Aug 5, 2020 20:08:36 GMT
If you meddle with the 24 you get struck by lightning 😂 In all seriousness, I wouldn’t touch the 24, and your 12 extension looks like it might cause issues with length. The 176 might, if anything, benefit with being cut back at the Central London end. I think it might benefit with being withdrawn west of Aldwych, with the 172 replacing it to Tottenham Court Road. Not sufficiently knowledgeable about the 27 to comment, particularly at its northern end. routes like the 176 I wouldn't like to see go because Aldwych doesn't have space nor does Waterloo and nor does Elephant. The 176 is a key trunk route, up there imo with the 53, 55, 171, 243 & 341. Routes like these serve massive communities and although may be unreliable they still provide very good purpose for the surrounding areas. I think central London needs more bus lanes Aldwych still has the old RV1 terminal vacant, and in any case my proposal just swaps the 172 and 176 over, so no extra space needed.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 6, 2020 5:37:48 GMT
The 24 has stayed in its current form near enough since its creation so I'd of thought that tells me its works. I'd prefer the 8 returning to Victoria or Oxford Circus myself over meddling with the 24 and making it a Pimlico to St Paul's route. i do agree with you, this is a bad way of explaining but the 24 could do with a little bit of spice to it. It hasn’t been changed in years and also the fact that every day I see the 24, it gets emptier, and this is before Covid. The route could do with some change now and I think the 12 and 27 replacing the northern side of the 24, would be a great idea and spicing up the 12 aswell massively, and making the 24 and 176 better aswell. I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting.
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Post by greg on Aug 6, 2020 11:24:08 GMT
i do agree with you, this is a bad way of explaining but the 24 could do with a little bit of spice to it. It hasn’t been changed in years and also the fact that every day I see the 24, it gets emptier, and this is before Covid. The route could do with some change now and I think the 12 and 27 replacing the northern side of the 24, would be a great idea and spicing up the 12 aswell massively, and making the 24 and 176 better aswell. I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting. thank you😁
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Aug 6, 2020 11:46:22 GMT
i do agree with you, this is a bad way of explaining but the 24 could do with a little bit of spice to it. It hasn’t been changed in years and also the fact that every day I see the 24, it gets emptier, and this is before Covid. The route could do with some change now and I think the 12 and 27 replacing the northern side of the 24, would be a great idea and spicing up the 12 aswell massively, and making the 24 and 176 better aswell. I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting. I think the 24s "listed" status is going to just kill the route eventually. The route now is a far cry of what it used to be in terms of frequency and reliability and I think something certainly needs to be done about it. My suggestion would be to split the route into two somewhere, maybe one route going from Golders Green to Tottenham Court Road via Hampstead Heath and North End way and another route from Warren Street to Nine Elms or Clapham Junction.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 6, 2020 11:51:58 GMT
i do agree with you, this is a bad way of explaining but the 24 could do with a little bit of spice to it. It hasn’t been changed in years and also the fact that every day I see the 24, it gets emptier, and this is before Covid. The route could do with some change now and I think the 12 and 27 replacing the northern side of the 24, would be a great idea and spicing up the 12 aswell massively, and making the 24 and 176 better aswell. I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting. No one said it has to stay like that for another 100 years but the fact it's survived so long in its current form clearly shows despite issues that many routes are currently facing, it still works.
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 6, 2020 11:55:13 GMT
I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting. I think the 24s "listed" status is going to just kill the route eventually. The route now is a far cry of what it used to be in terms of frequency and reliability and I think something certainly needs to be done about it. My suggestion would be to split the route into two somewhere, maybe one route going from Golders Green to Tottenham Court Road via Hampstead Heath and North End way and another route from Warren Street to Nine Elms or Clapham Junction. What the 24 needs to boost its declining patronage is not chopping about. It needs extensive bus priority over much of its length - priority that would benefit other routes too. That and severe restrictions on the number of cars and commercial vehicles allowed to enter Central London.
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Post by greg on Aug 6, 2020 12:04:17 GMT
I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting. I think the 24s "listed" status is going to just kill the route eventually. The route now is a far cry of what it used to be in terms of frequency and reliability and I think something certainly needs to be done about it. My suggestion would be to split the route into two somewhere, maybe one route going from Golders Green to Tottenham Court Road via Hampstead Heath and North End way and another route from Warren Street to Nine Elms or Clapham Junction. Hmm, thats some good ideas. As the 24 is my local for all 14 years of my life, I’d say: The new south route you said from Clapham Junction but then to Camden instead of Warren Street, seems very popular The north route won’t be that much popular if i’m honest, you really could extend the 31 to Warren Street and the 27 to Hampstead Heath theres not much demand north of Royal Free Hospital at all
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Post by greg on Aug 6, 2020 12:07:12 GMT
I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting. No one said it has to stay like that for another 100 years but the fact it's survived so long in its current form clearly shows despite issues that many routes are currently facing, it still works. Yeah no it does work, but it’s just that the route is declining, so from working for people its working for less people days go past. It’s only got popularity and mildly filled buses between Camden Town and Tottenham Court Road which by the way, has the 29 already. The 24 needs change, to make it work like it did before. In a few years, this route will definitely have some changes because buses run mostly empty. From a PVR of 30 back in the day to a PVR of 18, thats some part of a decline on the 24.
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Post by LJ17THF on Aug 6, 2020 12:10:51 GMT
I agree with you about the 24, it's been in steady decline for a few years now and just because it has been unchanged for 100 odd years doesn't mean it has to stay as it is for another 100 years.....your ideas are certainly very interesting. No one said it has to stay like that for another 100 years but the fact it's survived so long in its current form clearly shows despite issues that many routes are currently facing, it still works. I agree - I don't think TfL will ever have plans to change the 24 because of how long it has stayed since its creation. It's probably something they hold with pride and if they changed it, it would probably attract lots of media attention and considering that it has worked fine for almost 100 years. They should only change the route if the route gets lots of traffic on the way, which it doesn't, nor does it go on roads which prohibit buses.
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Post by greg on Aug 6, 2020 12:19:41 GMT
Adding to the 24, another reason why the route is declining so much is because there are other forms of transport on most sections of the route. Let me break it up for you guys. Most journeys from my observations: Hampstead Heath/Queens Crescent to Warren Street/Tottenham Court Road Camden to Leicester Square/Trafalgar Square
I can’t speak of the 24 past Trafalgar Square, but I don’t imagine its as popular as it was before.
Hampstead Heath to Warren Street journeys are the only busy section of the 24, and thats because it runs alone between Hampstead Heath and Chalk Farm. This can easily be replaced by the 27. Tottenham Court Road is a short walk away from Warren Street and also has the 29. Camden to Leciester Square/Trafalgar Square already has the 29, one of the busiest routes in London, with the highest frequency and one of the highest PVRs. It could even survive on it’s own (not saying it should).
From Warren Street to Victoria, most people use the 390 or even the Victoria Line to Victoria/Pimlico. People don’t bother on the 24 as most of the route is duplicated and as said before the various other transport links.
Bringing the 12 instead, in my previous proposal brings some new links to Camden, going to Camberwell and Peckham and can boost the 12 also going via Leicester Square. I suggested the 24 goes to S’t Paul’s because Holborn and City Thameslink are in desperate need of a route because the 8 simply is not coping and neither is the 98 because the 8 has temporarily been cut back to Holborn. It’s the best choice to place the 24 to S’t Paul’s as it brings a new route, new links and there is no other routing to place the 24 on. Forgive me for saying this, but if office patronage on buses never come back or the same, from the likes of 507/521, you could extend the 24 past S’t Paul’s to London Bridge and essentially kill off the 521.
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Post by LJ17THF on Aug 6, 2020 12:29:25 GMT
Adding to the 24, another reason why the route is declining so much is because there are other forms of transport on most sections of the route. Let me break it up for you guys. Most journeys from my observations: Hampstead Heath/Queens Crescent to Warren Street/Tottenham Court Road Camden to Leicester Square/Trafalgar Square I can’t speak of the 24 past Trafalgar Square, but I don’t imagine its as popular as it was before. Hampstead Heath to Warren Street journeys are the only busy section of the 24, and thats because it runs alone between Hampstead Heath and Chalk Farm. This can easily be replaced by the 27. Tottenham Court Road is a short walk away from Warren Street and also has the 29. Camden to Leciester Square/Trafalgar Square already has the 29, one of the busiest routes in London, with the highest frequency and one of the highest PVRs. It could even survive on it’s own (not saying it should). From Warren Street to Victoria, most people use the 390 or even the Victoria Line to Victoria/Pimlico. People don’t bother on the 24 as most of the route is duplicated and as said before the various other transport links. Bringing the 12 instead, in my previous proposal brings some new links to Camden, going to Camberwell and Peckham and can boost the 12 also going via Leicester Square. I suggested the 24 goes to S’t Paul’s because Holborn and City Thameslink are in desperate need of a route because the 8 simply is not coping and neither is the 98 because the 8 has temporarily been cut back to Holborn. It’s the best choice to place the 24 to S’t Paul’s as it brings a new route, new links and there is no other routing to place the 24 on. Forgive me for saying this, but if office patronage on buses never come back or the same, from the likes of 507/521, you could extend the 24 past S’t Paul’s to London Bridge and essentially kill off the 521. The pandemic isn't really a great time to judge how many people are going on buses, some routes may have a lot more than others. Also, the 507/521 have vastly different frequencies to operate frequently and if you were to replace it with an extension of the 24, many people would be unhappy that their high frequency, every few minutes, bus has been replaced by a bus that comes every 10+ minutes.
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Post by greg on Aug 6, 2020 12:31:21 GMT
Adding to the 24, another reason why the route is declining so much is because there are other forms of transport on most sections of the route. Let me break it up for you guys. Most journeys from my observations: Hampstead Heath/Queens Crescent to Warren Street/Tottenham Court Road Camden to Leicester Square/Trafalgar Square I can’t speak of the 24 past Trafalgar Square, but I don’t imagine its as popular as it was before. Hampstead Heath to Warren Street journeys are the only busy section of the 24, and thats because it runs alone between Hampstead Heath and Chalk Farm. This can easily be replaced by the 27. Tottenham Court Road is a short walk away from Warren Street and also has the 29. Camden to Leciester Square/Trafalgar Square already has the 29, one of the busiest routes in London, with the highest frequency and one of the highest PVRs. It could even survive on it’s own (not saying it should). From Warren Street to Victoria, most people use the 390 or even the Victoria Line to Victoria/Pimlico. People don’t bother on the 24 as most of the route is duplicated and as said before the various other transport links. Bringing the 12 instead, in my previous proposal brings some new links to Camden, going to Camberwell and Peckham and can boost the 12 also going via Leicester Square. I suggested the 24 goes to S’t Paul’s because Holborn and City Thameslink are in desperate need of a route because the 8 simply is not coping and neither is the 98 because the 8 has temporarily been cut back to Holborn. It’s the best choice to place the 24 to S’t Paul’s as it brings a new route, new links and there is no other routing to place the 24 on. Forgive me for saying this, but if office patronage on buses never come back or the same, from the likes of 507/521, you could extend the 24 past S’t Paul’s to London Bridge and essentially kill off the 521. The pandemic isn't really a great time to judge how many people are going on buses, some routes may have a lot more than others. Also, the 507/521 have vastly different frequencies to operate frequently and if you were to replace it with an extension of the 24, many people would be unhappy that their high frequency, every few minutes, bus has been replaced by a bus that comes every 10+ minutes. Ehh youre right about the 10+ minute thingy. I just predicting bus loads also.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 6, 2020 13:33:54 GMT
No one said it has to stay like that for another 100 years but the fact it's survived so long in its current form clearly shows despite issues that many routes are currently facing, it still works. Yeah no it does work, but it’s just that the route is declining, so from working for people its working for less people days go past. It’s only got popularity and mildly filled buses between Camden Town and Tottenham Court Road which by the way, has the 29 already. The 24 needs change, to make it work like it did before. In a few years, this route will definitely have some changes because buses run mostly empty. From a PVR of 30 back in the day to a PVR of 18, thats some part of a decline on the 24. Many routes have falling patronage because bus services have become much slower due to lack of priority, excessive padded timetables and the inability of traffic planners to tackle congestion - I don't believe people have suddenly said the 24's routing is an issue and this is my issue with certain individuals on here including a very particular person (not you) who keep proposing to chop up routes left, right & centre with little logic applied or lack of awareness around the consequences of doing so. wirewiper post was so spot on when talked about what many routes in general need. The core bus network has remained intact for many generations and there are very good reasons why but the main one is because it's works - "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
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