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Post by vjaska on Mar 10, 2024 1:12:30 GMT
The tunnel if it did happen would have ended up between Picardy Manorway and Marsh Way. Ok I see, I don’t believe changes need to made to existing routes & I think 1 express route through the tunnel/bridge should be sufficient. Here is my proposed route A11: Would run between Bexleyheath & Romford via: 229 to Erith, Bronze Age Way, Picardy Manorway, the tunnel/bridge to Marsh Way, 365 to Elm Park & 252 to Romford. Would serve the following stops: Bexleyheath Clock Tower Barnehurst Station Erith Town Centre Dunedin Road (Route would run non stop between Erith & the Orchard Village area) Elm Park Station (would run directly there on South End Road & Coronation Driver) Roneo Corner Romford Station Western Road Romford Market I'm not sure one express route on it's own would be sufficient - you need another 1-2 all stops routes at the very least branching off to other destinations on both sides of the rivers
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Post by bk10mfe on Mar 10, 2024 9:08:58 GMT
Ok I see, I don’t believe changes need to made to existing routes & I think 1 express route through the tunnel/bridge should be sufficient. Here is my proposed route A11: Would run between Bexleyheath & Romford via: 229 to Erith, Bronze Age Way, Picardy Manorway, the tunnel/bridge to Marsh Way, 365 to Elm Park & 252 to Romford. Would serve the following stops: Bexleyheath Clock Tower Barnehurst Station Erith Town Centre Dunedin Road (Route would run non stop between Erith & the Orchard Village area) Elm Park Station (would run directly there on South End Road & Coronation Driver) Roneo Corner Romford Station Western Road Romford Market I'm not sure one express route on it's own would be sufficient - you need another 1-2 all stops routes at the very least branching off to other destinations on both sides of the rivers I don’t believe this tunnel will have as much demand for it as the Silvertown tunnel will, but if something else needs to be extended the 428 is probably the easiest option, possibly terminating somewhere in Dagenham.
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Post by ADH45258 on Mar 10, 2024 13:20:30 GMT
With discussion on expanding the Superloop network, I think another orbital loop further out could work well, though would mostly be outside of TFL's operating area. Could some non-TFL operators perhaps consider introducing some new limited stop routes, roughly following the M25 corridor around the edge of Greater London? Traffic is less of an issue in these areas compared to Inner London, but car usage is high so could encourage more people onto public transport who are travelling between the outer suburbs & home county towns (rather than to/from Central London).
Could include some places within Greater London, such as Romford, Orpington and Uxbridge, but also crossing to towns in the home counties at a similar distance outside of the city, such as Watford, Potters Bar, Waltham Cross, Dartford, Caterham, Epsom and Staines.
This could also help a lot for passengers making longer distance journeys, where this may help connect to a rail service on a line further around the M25. For example someone wanting to go from Potters Bar to somewhere on the WCML could use this connection to get to Watford Junction, rather than having to travel into Central London and out again.
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Post by wirewiper on Mar 10, 2024 13:56:33 GMT
With discussion on expanding the Superloop network, I think another orbital loop further out could work well, though would mostly be outside of TFL's operating area. Could some non-TFL operators perhaps consider introducing some new limited stop routes, roughly following the M25 corridor around the edge of Greater London? Traffic is less of an issue in these areas compared to Inner London, but car usage is high so could encourage more people onto public transport who are travelling between the outer suburbs & home county towns (rather than to/from Central London). Could include some places within Greater London, such as Romford, Orpington and Uxbridge, but also crossing to towns in the home counties at a similar distance outside of the city, such as Watford, Potters Bar, Waltham Cross, Dartford, Caterham, Epsom and Staines. This could also help a lot for passengers making longer distance journeys, where this may help connect to a rail service on a line further around the M25. For example someone wanting to go from Potters Bar to somewhere on the WCML could use this connection to get to Watford Junction, rather than having to travel into Central London and out again. Hertfordshire is doing this to a degree with its "Connect Herts" services, by improving frequencies on the core inter-urban network especially on the east-west orientation. The problem these routes will have is that they will be low-frequency - there will not be the demand to justify a bus every 10 minutes. They will also be vulnerable to incidents on the M25 and other motorways, which quickly throw traffic into disarray over a wide area. More generally, I think there does need to be a study of existing and potential bus links in and around the Greater London boundary. The study should be commissioned jointly by TfL and the adjoining LTAs, but independently-led and tasked with producing a report and recommendations.
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Post by TB123 on Mar 10, 2024 14:08:30 GMT
With discussion on expanding the Superloop network, I think another orbital loop further out could work well, though would mostly be outside of TFL's operating area. Could some non-TFL operators perhaps consider introducing some new limited stop routes, roughly following the M25 corridor around the edge of Greater London? Traffic is less of an issue in these areas compared to Inner London, but car usage is high so could encourage more people onto public transport who are travelling between the outer suburbs & home county towns (rather than to/from Central London). Could include some places within Greater London, such as Romford, Orpington and Uxbridge, but also crossing to towns in the home counties at a similar distance outside of the city, such as Watford, Potters Bar, Waltham Cross, Dartford, Caterham, Epsom and Staines. This could also help a lot for passengers making longer distance journeys, where this may help connect to a rail service on a line further around the M25. For example someone wanting to go from Potters Bar to somewhere on the WCML could use this connection to get to Watford Junction, rather than having to travel into Central London and out again. Hertfordshire is doing this to a degree with its "Connect Herts" services, by improving frequencies on the core inter-urban network especially on the east-west orientation. The problem these routes will have is that they will be low-frequency - there will not be the demand to justify a bus every 10 minutes. They will also be vulnerable to incidents on the M25 and other motorways, which quickly throw traffic into disarray over a wide area. More generally, I think there does need to be a study of existing and potential bus links in and around the Greater London boundary. The study should be commissioned jointly by TfL and the adjoining LTAs, but independently-led and tasked with producing a report and recommendations. Wholeheartedly agree.
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Post by ian on Mar 10, 2024 14:24:49 GMT
Hertfordshire is doing this to a degree with its "Connect Herts" services, by improving frequencies on the core inter-urban network especially on the east-west orientation. The problem these routes will have is that they will be low-frequency - there will not be the demand to justify a bus every 10 minutes. They will also be vulnerable to incidents on the M25 and other motorways, which quickly throw traffic into disarray over a wide area. More generally, I think there does need to be a study of existing and potential bus links in and around the Greater London boundary. The study should be commissioned jointly by TfL and the adjoining LTAs, but independently-led and tasked with producing a report and recommendations. Would definitely agree with that. I have been shocked a few times recently just quite how threadbare some services have become. I had occasion to potentially use the (original) 242 recently but was staggered to find that the number of through buses from Potters Bar Railway Station to Cheshunt/Waltham Cross was down to just two per day.
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Post by greenboy on Mar 10, 2024 14:26:07 GMT
With discussion on expanding the Superloop network, I think another orbital loop further out could work well, though would mostly be outside of TFL's operating area. Could some non-TFL operators perhaps consider introducing some new limited stop routes, roughly following the M25 corridor around the edge of Greater London? Traffic is less of an issue in these areas compared to Inner London, but car usage is high so could encourage more people onto public transport who are travelling between the outer suburbs & home county towns (rather than to/from Central London). Could include some places within Greater London, such as Romford, Orpington and Uxbridge, but also crossing to towns in the home counties at a similar distance outside of the city, such as Watford, Potters Bar, Waltham Cross, Dartford, Caterham, Epsom and Staines. This could also help a lot for passengers making longer distance journeys, where this may help connect to a rail service on a line further around the M25. For example someone wanting to go from Potters Bar to somewhere on the WCML could use this connection to get to Watford Junction, rather than having to travel into Central London and out again. Romford to Dartford would be useful and maybe the 724 could be increased between Heathrow and Harlow but I'm not sure there's scope for much else? The North Downs line offers a railway alternative to much of the southern part of the M25.
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Post by greenboy on Mar 10, 2024 14:32:16 GMT
Idea for expanded Superloop network (just considering orbital routes here):SL1 Edgware Station - Chingford Stationvia Hale Lane, Apex Corner, Stirling Corner, Barnet Hospital, Barnet Church, High Barnet Station, New Barnet Station, East Barnet, Cat Hill Roundabout, Oakwood Station, Enfield Chase Station, Enfield, Southbury, Ponders End and Chingford Green SL2 Chingford Station - Barking Riverside Stationvia Chingford Hatch, Woodford Green, George Lane Shopping Centre, South Woodford Station, Claybury Broadway, Gants Hill Station, Ilford Station, Barking Station, Barking (Ripple Road) and Thames View Estate (passenger ferry Barking Riverside Pier to Thamesmead) SL3 Thamesmead - Bromley North SL5 Bromley North - Croydon Town Centreboth unchanged as present SL7 Croydon Town Centre - Heathrow CentralRevised to start at Croydon Town Centre, going via West Croydon and following the 407 towards Sutton Additional stops added between Teddington and Heathrow SL9 Heathrow Central - Edgware StationAs present to Harrow Bus Station, then via Kenton Station, Queensbury Circle and Camrose Avenue SL11 Brent Cross Shopping Centre - Walthamstow Central
via Hendon Central Station, Hendon (The Quadrant), Finchley (Gravel Hill), East Finchley, Muswell Hill Broadway, Hornsey, Turnpike Lane Station, West Green, Tottenham Bus Garage, Tottenham Hale Station and St James Street Station SL12 Walthamstow Central - North Greenwich Station (via Silvertown Tunnel)via Bakers Arms, Leyton Station, Stratford Station, Stratford Broadway, Plaistow Station, New Barn Street (Barking Road) and Custom House Station SL13 North Greenwich Station - Crystal Palace Paradevia Greenwich Ikea, Sun in the Sands Roundabout, Blackheath Station, Lewisham High Street, Lewisham Hospital, Catford Broadway, Catford & Catford Bridge Stations, Bell Green and Sydenham Station SL14 Crystal Palace Parade - Wimbledon Stationvia Crown Point, Streatham Station, St Leonards Church, Amen Corner, Tooting Broadway Station, Tooting High Street (for St Georges Hospital), Colliers Wood Station, South Wimbledon Station and Wimbledon Broadway SL15 Wimbledon Station - Ealing Broadwayvia Wimbledon Village, Tibbets Corner, Putney Heath, Roehampton, Queen Marys Hospital, East Sheen, Richmond Town Centre, Richmond Station, Kew Gardens, Kew Bridge Station, Brentford (Ealing Road) and South Ealing Station SL16 Ealing Broadway - Brent Cross Shopping Centrevia Ealing Common, Hanger Lane Station, Alperton Station, Wembley Central Station, Wembley Stadium, Wembley Park Station, Neasden Shopping Centre and Staples Corner Some interesting ideas although I'm not sure how viable they would be in practice, the SL15 would probably kill off the 493 and probably wouldn't be much quicker along the South Circular. Is there any particular reason for changing the SL7 route in Croydon?
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Post by britishguy54 on Mar 10, 2024 14:56:36 GMT
With discussion on expanding the Superloop network, I think another orbital loop further out could work well, though would mostly be outside of TFL's operating area. Could some non-TFL operators perhaps consider introducing some new limited stop routes, roughly following the M25 corridor around the edge of Greater London? Traffic is less of an issue in these areas compared to Inner London, but car usage is high so could encourage more people onto public transport who are travelling between the outer suburbs & home county towns (rather than to/from Central London). Could include some places within Greater London, such as Romford, Orpington and Uxbridge, but also crossing to towns in the home counties at a similar distance outside of the city, such as Watford, Potters Bar, Waltham Cross, Dartford, Caterham, Epsom and Staines. This could also help a lot for passengers making longer distance journeys, where this may help connect to a rail service on a line further around the M25. For example someone wanting to go from Potters Bar to somewhere on the WCML could use this connection to get to Watford Junction, rather than having to travel into Central London and out again. I think it might make more sense to follow the GL boundary in some areas, and follow the M25 in others. I guess I’ll have a crack at the eastern sections of the outer orbital. SL12: Chingford - Bluewater Shopping Centre Chingford Station Loughton Station Debden Station Chigwell Row Marks Gate Romford Market Romford Station Queen’s Hospital Elm Park Station Rainham Station Lakeside Shopping Centre Bluewater Shopping Centre SL13: Bluewater - Orpington Bluewater Shopping Centre Dartford Station Bexley Station Bexley, Vicarage Road Ruxley Corner St Mary Cray Station Walnuts Centre Orpington Station It does feel like you would also need other Superloop radial routes to assist the outer orbital. I also didn’t really want to go all the way out to Lakeside and Bluewater, but there aren’t any other good options. The Belvedere Crossing would have been a good fit for both sides of the Thames.
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Post by vjaska on Mar 10, 2024 16:38:38 GMT
I'm not sure one express route on it's own would be sufficient - you need another 1-2 all stops routes at the very least branching off to other destinations on both sides of the rivers I don’t believe this tunnel will have as much demand for it as the Silvertown tunnel will, but if something else needs to be extended the 428 is probably the easiest option, possibly terminating somewhere in Dagenham. It doesn’t need to have the same demand as the Silvertown tunnel to justify 1-2 stopping routes alongside an express route. The two all stops route will be for local journeys like the aforementioned 428 & the express route will be akin to Superloop journeys over a longer distance
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Post by Paul on Mar 10, 2024 17:46:16 GMT
SL13: Bluewater - Orpington Bluewater Shopping Centre Dartford Station Bexley Station Bexley, Vicarage Road Ruxley Corner St Mary Cray Station Walnuts Centre Orpington Station I like this in theory but I’m going to suggest potential improvement albeit straying into ‘money no object’ territory You don’t suggest a routing between Dartford Station and Bexley Station but I assume it’s along the lines of Dartford Heath. I’m going to suggest straight up Watling Street to serve Bexleyheath then out via Townley Road, Arbuthnot Road and Parkhill Road to go through Bexley Village and pick up your SL13. This could remove the need for the current SL3 to serve Bexleyheath and could speed up journey times on that route with it going via Danson Road and Crook Log to Avenue Road Additionally, Bexleyheath passengers needn’t miss out on the link to the Elizabeth Line that the SL3 provides because I’d couple this new SL13 with an extension to the Elizabeth Line at least to Dartford and possibly on to Ebbsfleet
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2024 21:24:09 GMT
With discussion on expanding the Superloop network, I think another orbital loop further out could work well, though would mostly be outside of TFL's operating area. Could some non-TFL operators perhaps consider introducing some new limited stop routes, roughly following the M25 corridor around the edge of Greater London? Traffic is less of an issue in these areas compared to Inner London, but car usage is high so could encourage more people onto public transport who are travelling between the outer suburbs & home county towns (rather than to/from Central London). Could include some places within Greater London, such as Romford, Orpington and Uxbridge, but also crossing to towns in the home counties at a similar distance outside of the city, such as Watford, Potters Bar, Waltham Cross, Dartford, Caterham, Epsom and Staines. This could also help a lot for passengers making longer distance journeys, where this may help connect to a rail service on a line further around the M25. For example someone wanting to go from Potters Bar to somewhere on the WCML could use this connection to get to Watford Junction, rather than having to travel into Central London and out again. I think it might make more sense to follow the GL boundary in some areas, and follow the M25 in others. I guess I’ll have a crack at the eastern sections of the outer orbital. SL12: Chingford - Bluewater Shopping Centre Chingford Station Loughton Station Debden Station Chigwell Row Marks Gate Romford Market Romford Station Queen’s Hospital Elm Park Station Rainham Station Lakeside Shopping Centre Bluewater Shopping Centre SL13: Bluewater - Orpington Bluewater Shopping Centre Dartford Station Bexley Station Bexley, Vicarage Road Ruxley Corner St Mary Cray Station Walnuts Centre Orpington Station It does feel like you would also need other Superloop radial routes to assist the outer orbital. I also didn’t really want to go all the way out to Lakeside and Bluewater, but there aren’t any other good options. The Belvedere Crossing would have been a good fit for both sides of the Thames. The SL13 idea kills off Arriva’s 477 service which runs from Dartford to Orpington, screwing Swanley and it’s surrounding villages of Hextable, Wilmington and Crockenhill in the process.
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Post by bk10mfe on Mar 11, 2024 9:41:35 GMT
I don’t believe this tunnel will have as much demand for it as the Silvertown tunnel will, but if something else needs to be extended the 428 is probably the easiest option, possibly terminating somewhere in Dagenham. It doesn’t need to have the same demand as the Silvertown tunnel to justify 1-2 stopping routes alongside an express route. The two all stops route will be for local journeys like the aforementioned 428 & the express route will be akin to Superloop journeys over a longer distance True but to me at least the areas of Belvedere & Dagenham are mostly either industrial areas or housing. Romford, Barking & Bexleyheath are the main town centres. The 428 is likely the only route that could be viably extended from either end, as extending/rerouting anything else would either make the route too long to reliably operate (e.g if I were to extend either the 174 or 365), or would break existing links (e.g rerouting the 287 or 401 across the bridge). I do wonder if you could however create a new Barking-Bexleyheath route, running via the 287 (would run via the Vicarage Shopping centre instead in Barking) to Marsh Way, then through the tunnel, the 401 to the Lessness Centre, Brook St (which currently doesn’t have a bus service on it & Erith Road down to Bexleyheath. The 287 does load fairly well in Barking from the couple times I have been on it.
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Post by ADH45258 on Mar 11, 2024 17:28:43 GMT
Restructure idea for south east London:
B14/R6 - TFL's proposals to go ahead as planned.
138 - Extended from Bromley North to Eltham Station via the 162. Frequency increased to every 15 minutes.
162 - Withdrawn between Eltham and Chislehurst, and instead extended to Sidcup via the 269. Converted to DDs.
269 - Withdrawn between Bromley and Sidcup, and instead extended to Orpington via the 51.
51 - Withdrawn between Orpington and Sidcup. Also extended from Woolwich to North Greenwich via the 161, providing new links from North Greenwich to the Plumstead Common area.
126 - Extended from Eltham to Woolwich via the 161, and converted to DDs. Possible diversion via Grove Park Road (instead of Dunkery Road).
161 - Revised to operate between Eltham High Street and Orpington Station, replacing part of the 61. Frequency reduced to every 15 minutes.
61 - Revised to operate between Bromley North and Ramsden Estate, with the R9 withdrawn.
Possible further change - 162 to swap with the 358 to the west of Park Langley, increasing capacity between Crystal Palace and Bromley.
So in summary: 51 North Greenwich - Sidcup 61 Bromley North - Ramsden Estate 126 Woolwich - Bromley South 138 Coney Hall - Eltham 161 Eltham - Orpington 162 Crystal Palace - Sidcup 269 Bexleyheath - Orpington 358 Beckenham Junction - Orpington B14 Bexleyheath - Orpington (via Wooten Green) R6 & R9 Withdrawn
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Post by bk10mfe on Mar 11, 2024 17:43:37 GMT
Restructure idea for south east London: B14/R6 - TFL's proposals to go ahead as planned. 138 - Extended from Bromley North to Eltham Station via the 162. Frequency increased to every 15 minutes. 162 - Withdrawn between Eltham and Chislehurst, and instead extended to Sidcup via the 269. Converted to DDs. 269 - Withdrawn between Bromley and Sidcup, and instead extended to Orpington via the 51. 51 - Withdrawn between Orpington and Sidcup. Also extended from Woolwich to North Greenwich via the 161, providing new links from North Greenwich to the Plumstead Common area. 126 - Extended from Eltham to Woolwich via the 161, and converted to DDs. Possible diversion via Grove Park Road (instead of Dunkery Road). 161 - Revised to operate between Eltham High Street and Orpington Station, replacing part of the 61. Frequency reduced to every 15 minutes. 61 - Revised to operate between Bromley North and Ramsden Estate, with the R9 withdrawn. Possible further change - 162 to swap with the 358 to the west of Park Langley, increasing capacity between Crystal Palace and Bromley. So in summary: 51 North Greenwich - Sidcup 61 Bromley North - Ramsden Estate 126 Woolwich - Bromley South 138 Coney Hall - Eltham 161 Eltham - Orpington 162 Crystal Palace - Sidcup 269 Bexleyheath - Orpington 358 Beckenham Junction - Orpington B14 Bexleyheath - Orpington (via Wooten Green) R6 & R9 Withdrawn The 138 doesn’t get stand time in Coney Hall, it is meant to be a short route linking Coney Hall to Hayes & Bromley, so extending it all the way to North Eltham wouldn’t work here unfortunately. Could you extend something else to North Eltham that gets stand time on the other end of its route e.g the 227?
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