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Post by vjaska on Jan 15, 2021 19:30:32 GMT
I personally think TfL have done a good job with the proposals for Croydon and Sutton. If they can replicate elsewhere that's a good move. Especially if they can find ways of achieving savings and more coverage/links. I would agree, they are surprisingly sensible changes which create and most importantly retain good links. The only one I don’t agree with is the proposed S2 terminating at the prisons. That stop can be busy at times, mostly during visiting times or when some of the female prisoners get day release for work in the local area but obviously not at the moment with COVID, most of the prisoners are locked down. Unless the council or HMPS plan to build a pavement between the prisons and the main road as I don’t recall there being one it could present a problem at times as I believe the S2 will use short buses. Cutting the bus link between Croydon & Waddon Marsh is a particularly poor change especially as tramlink will continue to outgrow itself - the 289 is far too indirect and busy to be a alternative. The S4 should surely continue as a result or restructure the 410 to run to Waddon Marsh rather than Wallington and leave that to something that can use bigger buses like the 433 or new route 443. The S3 removal from back roads around Sutton Common and Sutton Station doesn't seem particularly sensible either from an outsider point of view especially for the former as money would be needed to be spent on changing the road layout to do such a change. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 19:35:59 GMT
Following the confirmation today that TfL intend to cut bus mileage by around 4% between now and 2024/5, I thought this would be an interesting thread to discuss any possible changes that may arise from this or to discuss places where cuts could well be made Thanks for creating this interesting thread. I was expecting cuts to be announced sooner or later. The goodness of this is that entire routes will not be axed.Not sure how soon we will see the first cut take place and what routes will be targeted? Re tenders, this could allow surplus buses floating around therefore can be deployed on bus routes due for tender soon. |
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Post by greenboy on Jan 15, 2021 19:42:14 GMT
In the suburban areas I'd look more at the evening freqs. It's a much less 24h lifestyle then zones 1 and 2 and even pre Covid I'd see 154's with about 3 people on after 8pm and probably similar to routes like the 80, 127, 151 which could easily drop after 9pm to every 20 to 30 mins. I can remember the 154 being quite busy in the evening years ago, shows how things have changed, and the 151 only needs to be Wallington to Sutton in the evening. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 15, 2021 19:43:28 GMT
Following the confirmation today that TfL intend to cut bus mileage by around 4% between now and 2024/5, I thought this would be an interesting thread to discuss any possible changes that may arise from this or to discuss places where cuts could well be made Thanks for creating this interesting thread. I was expecting cuts to be announced sooner or later. The goodness of this is that entire routes will not be axed.Not sure how soon we will see the first cut take place and what routes will be targeted? Re tenders, this could allow surplus buses floating around therefore can be deployed on bus routes due for tender soon. Wouldn't be so sure that no routes will be entirely withdrawn. But it depends on what proposals go out to make the cut, if you'll pardon the pun. I expect this will go out to consultation in June or July. A lot of it depends on the Mayoral election. Unlikely we'll see any major changes take place this side of Christmas. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 15, 2021 19:44:12 GMT
In the suburban areas I'd look more at the evening freqs. It's a much less 24h lifestyle then zones 1 and 2 and even pre Covid I'd see 154's with about 3 people on after 8pm and probably similar to routes like the 80, 127, 151 which could easily drop after 9pm to every 20 to 30 mins. I can remember the 154 being quite busy in the evening years ago, shows how things have changed, and the 151 only needs to be Wallington to Sutton in the evening. Both routes still have strong usage in the evenings hence why they were both recently reviewed with the 151 remaining intact and the 154 even getting an increase. |
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Post by greenboy on Jan 15, 2021 19:47:15 GMT
I can remember the 154 being quite busy in the evening years ago, shows how things have changed, and the 151 only needs to be Wallington to Sutton in the evening. Both routes still have strong usage in the evenings hence why they were both recently reviewed with the 151 remaining intact and the 154 even getting an increase. Well somebody has reported seeing the 154 with about three passengers on in the evening pre covid, as for the 151 the 213 and X26 are more than adequate between Sutton and Worcester Park in the evening. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 15, 2021 19:48:52 GMT
I would agree, they are surprisingly sensible changes which create and most importantly retain good links. The only one I don’t agree with is the proposed S2 terminating at the prisons. That stop can be busy at times, mostly during visiting times or when some of the female prisoners get day release for work in the local area but obviously not at the moment with COVID, most of the prisoners are locked down. Unless the council or HMPS plan to build a pavement between the prisons and the main road as I don’t recall there being one it could present a problem at times as I believe the S2 will use short buses. Cutting the bus link between Croydon & Waddon Marsh is a particularly poor change especially as tramlink will continue to outgrow itself - the 289 is far too indirect and busy to be a alternative. The S4 should surely continue as a result or restructure the 410 to run to Waddon Marsh rather than Wallington and leave that to something that can use bigger buses like the 433 or new route 443. The S3 removal from back roads around Sutton Common and Sutton Station doesn't seem particularly sensible either from an outsider point of view especially for the former as money would be needed to be spent on changing the road layout to do such a change. I'm a little sceptical of losing a direct bus between Croydon town centre and Waddon Marsh but I should think it will work out. One idea I put forward and actually see happening is the 645 running through to Waddon Marsh and possibly Valley Park - providing some useful connections for school children living in housing developments on this stretch. As for the S3, well the road modifications take place on Sutton Council managed roads - they've agreed to the works and obviously would pay for them. TfL meanwhile can run their two bus routes in that area a little more direct and reliably than previously (on paper) so it actually works out very good from a TfL view. As for taking the S3 out of some of the back roads near Sutton town centre, I did pitch a loop style arrangement in the consultation but this would not be able to viably include Lind Road. Also worries it may impact the reliability of the service as it would not be possible to incorporate a layover point at that end. Otherwise, the changes for the area proposed are very good. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 15, 2021 19:51:50 GMT
Both routes still have strong usage in the evenings hence why they were both recently reviewed with the 151 remaining intact and the 154 even getting an increase. Well somebody has reported seeing the 154 with about three passengers on in the evening pre covid, as for the 151 the 213 and X26 are more than adequate between Sutton and Worcester Park in the evening. Anecdotal evidence means nothing versus data that shows to the contrary. Hence the increase, which had to meet a stringent business case procedure. As for the 151, well clearly the expertsl professionals at TfL within surface transport planning, who have access to the appropriate data, think otherwise. You'd also be cutting off links between a large swathe of Sutton borough and St Helier Hospital, to the detriment of key workers. Yes there's hopper fare, but a direct link works best and indeed has viability daytime & evening. |
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Post by greenboy on Jan 15, 2021 19:53:56 GMT
Well somebody has reported seeing the 154 with about three passengers on in the evening pre covid, as for the 151 the 213 and X26 are more than adequate between Sutton and Worcester Park in the evening. Anecdotal evidence means nothing versus data that shows to the contrary. Hence the increase, which had to meet a stringent business case procedure. As for the 151, well clearly the expertsl professionals at TfL within surface transport planning, who have access to the appropriate data, think otherwise. You'd also be cutting off links between a large swathe of Sutton borough and St Helier Hospital, to the detriment of key workers. Yes there's hopper fare, but a direct link works best and indeed has viability daytime & evening. If you want to swear by this data that's up to you, others will make their own minds up. |
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Post by TB123 on Jan 15, 2021 19:55:30 GMT
Anecdotal evidence means nothing versus data that shows to the contrary. Hence the increase, which had to meet a stringent business case procedure. As for the 151, well clearly the expertsl professionals at TfL within surface transport planning, who have access to the appropriate data, think otherwise. You'd also be cutting off links between a large swathe of Sutton borough and St Helier Hospital, to the detriment of key workers. Yes there's hopper fare, but a direct link works best and indeed has viability daytime & evening. If you want to swear by this data that's up to you, others will make their own minds up. Yes, because data is the strongest tool for planning bus services. Seeing a bus pass you with "only 3 people on it" is really not. Thankfully the people who run the show agree with me here. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 19:56:27 GMT
Both routes still have strong usage in the evenings hence why they were both recently reviewed with the 151 remaining intact and the 154 even getting an increase. Well somebody has reported seeing the 154 with about three passengers on in the evening pre covid, as for the 151 the 213 and X26 are more than adequate between Sutton and Worcester Park in the evening. The 154 past my house everyday, 3 passengers pre COVID is a massive exaggeration. I’m gonna have to agree with TB123 on this one, the 151 and 154 both serve purposes in the evenings. At minimum I would remove the 151 between Worcester Park and North Cheam, but nothing else. |
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Post by greenboy on Jan 15, 2021 19:58:41 GMT
Well somebody has reported seeing the 154 with about three passengers on in the evening pre covid, as for the 151 the 213 and X26 are more than adequate between Sutton and Worcester Park in the evening. It goes past my house everyday 3 passengers pre COVID is a massive exaggeration. Well that's what someone else reported, but I've seen a lot of buses on other routes with similar meagre loads in the evening. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 20:12:00 GMT
It goes past my house everyday 3 passengers pre COVID is a massive exaggeration. Well that's what someone else reported, but I've seen a lot of buses on other routes with similar meagre loads in the evening. No what you see is random buses at certain times unless you survey the route for several hours over a period of time - You are just making casual observations.
Only TfL knows the true usage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 20:14:35 GMT
I wonder what new terminus the 388 will have in these next range of central London changes 
Joking aside I do wonder if the latest cuts could well see this route withdrawn?
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Post by bus12451 on Jan 15, 2021 21:46:56 GMT
I expect the Central London bus cuts to involve at least one of the following routes: 68, 168 and 188.
These three routes duplicate each other between Elephant & Castle and Russell Square, each running at an avg frequency of every 8 minutes (roughly 8bph for each route).
I think there is scope for a reduction in the frequency of one or two of these bus routes. In the 188's case, it is probably acceptable to cut it back to Aldwych or Waterloo.
Additionally, I feel as though a large portion of those 25 routes will involve LT routes, subsequently more LTs moving to the outer suburbs. The Elizabeth Line core section opening may also play as a factor of which routes are affected, 390 comes to mind.
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