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Post by DT 11 on Apr 17, 2021 21:08:01 GMT
On what evidence, just observations. quote author=" bus12451 " source="/post/630454/thread" timestamp="1618675347"]124, 126, 162, 181, 244, 273, 284, 286, 380, 386, 484, B16 and P4 have capacity issues mostly during peak times. The 126 and B16 already see some DD workings throughout the day, and sometimes on the 286 too. As has been mentioned multiple times on this forum recently, the 286 should be upgraded to DD without a doubt. The 126 does not solely use DDs presumably because the 124, 161 and 261 run parallel to the 126 along certain parts of the route, which is adequate in TfL's eyes. The 484 is regularly overcrowded between Lewisham and Brockley, especially in the late afternoons/evenings, it uses 9.7m buses. Before the vehicle order for the 484 was announced, I was personally hoping it would get longer buses but it didn't. Other notable mentions are the 162, 273, 386 and P4. I don't think the P4's frequency is sufficient as it is usually overcrowded from both ends of the route. The 162, 386 and 273 use 8.9m buses and run at every 15, 15 and 20 minutes Mon-Sat respectively. I feel that these routes deserve frequency increases at the very least, as well as higher capacity buses where possible (386 and 484 should be able to take up to 10.2m). The 244 was planned to be converted to DD alongside the 178 and 291 as part of the Elizabeth Line SE London bus changes but that did not go ahead unfortunately. It would have not only benefitted this route but also the 380 in the Thamesmead West area. Looking back at the 178 and 291 DD conversions, their usage figures ever since then have meant that these two routes could never go back to their previous SD allocation. Not sure if much can be done about the 124, 181 and 284 apart from making adjustments to other routes and maybe slight frequency increases on the 181 and 284. Well in that case, everything in this thread is an observation... How do you know if a route has capacity issues if you don't see it? Using the services too, but to be quite honest the majority do get some sort of heavy loads during busy times that has been listed above, even non locals to these bus routes know this. 124 181 284 all serve residential area been familiar with these routes for years, buses regularly leave people behind nothing has changed frequency increases will just overbus these services. Swapping the terminal of the 171 & 181 is an idea I have thought of since it was cut from Holborn. Grove Park to Catford is not as busy on Route 181. 124 Catford-North Downham 181 Lewisham-Hither Green 284 Grove Park-Catford 160 takes the overspill. 484 not very familiar but whenever I have used this service it is usually very busy. |
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Post by capitalomnibus on Apr 17, 2021 21:34:19 GMT
I think the 276 isn't an issue like this, but a slightly different issue where the crowds are isolated to specific parts of the route. The section between Newham Hospital and Canning Town doesn't tend to be extremely loaded, but between Canning Town and Stratford it's a total carnage before becoming quiet once again throughout the Bow and Hackney Wick area heading towards Homerton and Hackney. Then around the Dalston area it tends to get a bit busy, but not totally unbearable. As a result an every 12 frequency is perfect for an extremely large portion of the route north of Stratford and between Newham Hospital and Canning Town, while the section between Canning Town and Stratford is where the route's capacity is woefully inadequate. The issue being here that you can't deck the route in any way due to the low bridge by West Ham Station, and any frequency increase would over-bus the rest of the route. The obvious answer here would be to introduce a few shorts between Stratford and Newham Hospital but TfL don't usually seem to be a fan of those for some reason. It's quite the sight seeing the 276s loading up at Stratford heading to West Ham. The 276 can go under that bridge with DDs as DDs are 14"6 whilst the bridge is 14"9 so should be no issue there. I would question some of the roads round Star Lane but there is a low bridge in Hackney Wick. There is a double bridge there, it would go under one, but not the next. A colleague did this some years ago to 18255 when it was only a few months old and ripping the roof off running out of service back to [T]. To make matters worse he was being followed by a police car not far behind. They pulled him over and the idiot said he did not realise that he hit the bridge. It was no surprise a comment like that coming from him as he was very cocky. He was sacked! |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 17, 2021 22:05:48 GMT
I find the 192 extremely stressful, packed and unreliable, especially with the clientele who share the ride from Tottenham Hale and the drivers who seem to have accidents more often than not. Whatever happened to the free shuttle bus Ikea is supposed to have? Clearly the Enfield end is more salubrious but also narrower, hence the small vehicles and crowding. Perhaps the 41 could extend from Tottenham Hale to Ikea & Meridian Water to provide extra capacity? |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 17, 2021 22:07:06 GMT
The 490 is another single deck route which has high loadings resulting in capacity issues, especially being a route which serves Heathrow. I thought the 490 should've instead been cutback to Richmond with the 493 serving Pools on the Park. Swapping the 490/R70 termini might also be an option, if Pools on the Park needs a link kept towards Twickenham |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 17, 2021 22:09:18 GMT
184, but mostly towards the Wood Green end, and mostly due to peak/school traffic. W15, lots of through use between Hackney/Homerton and Leyton/stone and between all of those points and Walthamstow, as well as local journeys from Leyton/stone tube stations, and Whipps Cross Hospital is a major traffic objective. The route does a lot of heavy lifting for a single decker. Hackney has a long tradition of sending it's pupils to schools in Waltham Forest, in no small part due to Government taking Hackney's limping (at the time) education system out of the council's hands for a number of years. The W15 joins the dots here too. If the new route W17 is a split from the W15, perhaps this might allow the busier sections of the current W15 to use DDs? Presumably it's the hospital grounds at Whipps Cross that currently prevent DDs from being used? |
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Post by uakari on Apr 17, 2021 22:10:40 GMT
I find the 192 extremely stressful, packed and unreliable, especially with the clientele who share the ride from Tottenham Hale and the drivers who seem to have accidents more often than not. Whatever happened to the free shuttle bus Ikea is supposed to have? Clearly the Enfield end is more salubrious but also narrower, hence the small vehicles and crowding. Perhaps the 41 could extend from Tottenham Hale to Ikea & Meridian Water to provide extra capacity? Would shadow the 341 a bit but there is certainly lots of spare terminating space at Ikea. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 17, 2021 22:14:56 GMT
And yet it only runs every 12 minutes? That suggests to me that any capacity issues occur at specific times/locations rather than being continual. The same is probably true for a number of routes that will be cited in this thread. I think the 276 isn't an issue like this, but a slightly different issue where the crowds are isolated to specific parts of the route. The section between Newham Hospital and Canning Town doesn't tend to be extremely loaded, but between Canning Town and Stratford it's a total carnage before becoming quiet once again throughout the Bow and Hackney Wick area heading towards Homerton and Hackney. Then around the Dalston area it tends to get a bit busy, but not totally unbearable. As a result an every 12 frequency is perfect for an extremely large portion of the route north of Stratford and between Newham Hospital and Canning Town, while the section between Canning Town and Stratford is where the route's capacity is woefully inadequate. The issue being here that you can't deck the route in any way due to the low bridge by West Ham Station, and any frequency increase would over-bus the rest of the route. The obvious answer here would be to introduce a few shorts between Stratford and Newham Hospital but TfL don't usually seem to be a fan of those for some reason. It's quite the sight seeing the 276s loading up at Stratford heading to West Ham. DDs should be able to fit along the West Ham section, though there is a low bridge near Hackney Wick. A possible solution could be to reroute the 276 via Here East and Stratford City, no longer serving Hackney Wick Station, Bow or Stratford High Street. This would allow DDs to be used, and make the 276 more direct for longer journeys - and the reroute could also replace the proposed 241 extension. I would then extend route 236 from Hackney Wick to Stratford to replace the Bow section, maintaining links towards Homerton and Hackney. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 17, 2021 22:20:11 GMT
I think the 276 isn't an issue like this, but a slightly different issue where the crowds are isolated to specific parts of the route. The section between Newham Hospital and Canning Town doesn't tend to be extremely loaded, but between Canning Town and Stratford it's a total carnage before becoming quiet once again throughout the Bow and Hackney Wick area heading towards Homerton and Hackney. Then around the Dalston area it tends to get a bit busy, but not totally unbearable. As a result an every 12 frequency is perfect for an extremely large portion of the route north of Stratford and between Newham Hospital and Canning Town, while the section between Canning Town and Stratford is where the route's capacity is woefully inadequate. The issue being here that you can't deck the route in any way due to the low bridge by West Ham Station, and any frequency increase would over-bus the rest of the route. The obvious answer here would be to introduce a few shorts between Stratford and Newham Hospital but TfL don't usually seem to be a fan of those for some reason. It's quite the sight seeing the 276s loading up at Stratford heading to West Ham. DDs should be able to fit along the West Ham section, though there is a low bridge near Hackney Wick. A possible solution could be to reroute the 276 via Here East and Stratford City, no longer serving Hackney Wick Station, Bow or Stratford High Street. This would allow DDs to be used, and make the 276 more direct for longer journeys - and the reroute could also replace the proposed 241 extension. I would then extend route 236 from Hackney Wick to Stratford to replace the Bow section, maintaining links towards Homerton and Hackney. DDs most certainly can't fit down West Ham, I'm surprised single deckers even fit down there. I drove right under it this evening and I'd be very very surprised if a decker could come out in one piece. It's why a lot of dead running WH buses don't use that route, but tend to run via route 69 instead. The 276 can't be made DD without extreme modification, and chances are any resulting route would be extremely different to the current one to a point using the existing number would be very confusing. You've got bridges in West Ham, Bow and Hackney Wick. |
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Post by VMH2537 on Apr 17, 2021 22:45:47 GMT
Perhaps the 41 could extend from Tottenham Hale to Ikea & Meridian Water to provide extra capacity? Would shadow the 341 a bit but there is certainly lots of spare terminating space at Ikea. I can't see capacity support yet, but once the Meridian Water development comes there will definitely be support. It's rumourred that W8 will be diverted down to Meridian Water and there will be a new shuttle route from Tottenham Hale to Meridian Water. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Apr 17, 2021 22:51:14 GMT
DDs should be able to fit along the West Ham section, though there is a low bridge near Hackney Wick. A possible solution could be to reroute the 276 via Here East and Stratford City, no longer serving Hackney Wick Station, Bow or Stratford High Street. This would allow DDs to be used, and make the 276 more direct for longer journeys - and the reroute could also replace the proposed 241 extension. I would then extend route 236 from Hackney Wick to Stratford to replace the Bow section, maintaining links towards Homerton and Hackney. DDs most certainly can't fit down West Ham, I'm surprised single deckers even fit down there. I drove right under it this evening and I'd be very very surprised if a decker could come out in one piece. It's why a lot of dead running WH buses don't use that route, but tend to run via route 69 instead. The 276 can't be made DD without extreme modification, and chances are any resulting route would be extremely different to the current one to a point using the existing number would be very confusing. You've got bridges in West Ham, Bow and Hackney Wick. Forgot about the low bridge by Bow garage, though this is close to the Hackney Wick example. The railway bridge at West Ham Station is listed as 14'9 (4.5m). An Envrio 400 for example is about 4.3m, so would fit (unless more clearance is needed for regular use). |
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Post by vjaska on Apr 17, 2021 23:31:14 GMT
DDs most certainly can't fit down West Ham, I'm surprised single deckers even fit down there. I drove right under it this evening and I'd be very very surprised if a decker could come out in one piece. It's why a lot of dead running WH buses don't use that route, but tend to run via route 69 instead. The 276 can't be made DD without extreme modification, and chances are any resulting route would be extremely different to the current one to a point using the existing number would be very confusing. You've got bridges in West Ham, Bow and Hackney Wick. Forgot about the low bridge by Bow garage, though this is close to the Hackney Wick example. The railway bridge at West Ham Station is listed as 14'9 (4.5m). An Envrio 400 for example is about 4.3m, so would fit (unless more clearance is needed for regular use). As has been stated above by others, there is two bridges on Manor Road - the one at West Ham Station is indeed high enough but the one carrying the Greenway path over the road is 13'0" and is not high enough even for low height double deckers. The only solution for the 276 would be to increase it's frequency as re-routing it away would probably only lengthen the route and more likely create problems especially if your extending another busy single deck routes like the 236. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2021 0:09:25 GMT
233 during peak times has always been a nightmare. I’ve literally traveled from Sidcup to Swanley packed in like a tin of baked beans leaning up against windscreen before.
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Post by greenboy on Apr 18, 2021 6:15:02 GMT
The 484 is regularly overcrowded between Lewisham and Brockley, especially in the late afternoons/evenings, it uses 9.7m buses. Before the vehicle order for the 484 was announced, I was personally hoping it would get longer buses but it didn't. Other notable mentions are the 162, 273, 386 and P4. I don't think the P4's frequency is sufficient as it is usually overcrowded from both ends of the route. The 162, 386 and 273 use 8.9m buses and run at every 15, 15 and 20 minutes Mon-Sat respectively. I feel that these routes deserve frequency increases at the very least, as well as higher capacity buses where possible (386 and 484 should be able to take up to 10.2m).
484 was meant to get 10.1m Darts (cascaded from 345) for its 2001 contract but these failed a route test, so it got new 9.4m buses instead.
I'm not surprised that 10.1m buses failed a route test for the 484, it's quite bizarre that the 484 had a frequency reduction a few years ago. The 124 has been mentioned and with capacity reduced because of covid at peak times buses can fill up at the first stop with people from the two railway stations, the route through North Downham estate precludes bigger buses. The 126 often gets double deckers although I think this is just due to single decker shortages at MB. The 138 can struggle at peak times in normal circumstances. |
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Post by redexpress on Apr 18, 2021 7:37:33 GMT
184, but mostly towards the Wood Green end, and mostly due to peak/school traffic. W15, lots of through use between Hackney/Homerton and Leyton/stone and between all of those points and Walthamstow, as well as local journeys from Leyton/stone tube stations, and Whipps Cross Hospital is a major traffic objective. The route does a lot of heavy lifting for a single decker. Hackney has a long tradition of sending it's pupils to schools in Waltham Forest, in no small part due to Government taking Hackney's limping (at the time) education system out of the council's hands for a number of years. The W15 joins the dots here too. If the new route W17 is a split from the W15, perhaps this might allow the busier sections of the current W15 to use DDs? Presumably it's the hospital grounds at Whipps Cross that currently prevent DDs from being used? Not just the hospital - the W15 passes under a low bridge on Grove Green Road, and that's very much one of the busier sections of route. Perhaps longer single-deckers could be used. |
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Post by beaver14uk on Apr 18, 2021 9:45:09 GMT
I could go out now and see loads of people waiting for a 96, doesn't mean straight away there is a cacacity issue. uote author=" bus12451" source="/post/630480/thread" timestamp="1618687793"] On what evidence, just observations. quote author=" bus12451 " source="/post/630454/thread" timestamp="1618675347"]124, 126, 162, 181, 244, 273, 284, 286, 380, 386, 484, B16 and P4 have capacity issues mostly during peak times. The 126 and B16 already see some DD workings throughout the day, and sometimes on the 286 too. As has been mentioned multiple times on this forum recently, the 286 should be upgraded to DD without a doubt. The 126 does not solely use DDs presumably because the 124, 161 and 261 run parallel to the 126 along certain parts of the route, which is adequate in TfL's eyes. The 484 is regularly overcrowded between Lewisham and Brockley, especially in the late afternoons/evenings, it uses 9.7m buses. Before the vehicle order for the 484 was announced, I was personally hoping it would get longer buses but it didn't. Other notable mentions are the 162, 273, 386 and P4. I don't think the P4's frequency is sufficient as it is usually overcrowded from both ends of the route. The 162, 386 and 273 use 8.9m buses and run at every 15, 15 and 20 minutes Mon-Sat respectively. I feel that these routes deserve frequency increases at the very least, as well as higher capacity buses where possible (386 and 484 should be able to take up to 10.2m). The 244 was planned to be converted to DD alongside the 178 and 291 as part of the Elizabeth Line SE London bus changes but that did not go ahead unfortunately. It would have not only benefitted this route but also the 380 in the Thamesmead West area. Looking back at the 178 and 291 DD conversions, their usage figures ever since then have meant that these two routes could never go back to their previous SD allocation. Not sure if much can be done about the 124, 181 and 284 apart from making adjustments to other routes and maybe slight frequency increases on the 181 and 284. Well in that case, everything in this thread is an observation... How do you know if a route has capacity issues if you don't see it? [/quote] [/quote] |
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