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Post by buspete on Aug 1, 2021 18:42:49 GMT
Obviously the East London Line has now gone and taken over by London Overground with extensions north to Dalston Junction/Highbury Islington and Crystal Palace/West Croydon and Clapham Junction in the south. It is fair to say the take over by London Overground has been a success.
However when I go through New Cross it seems quite simple to stick a set of points and double line between Canal Junction and New Cross to bring trains on to the mainline, this could open useful services to Bromley North/Orpington and maybe Dartford.
I wonder if this may happen in the future?
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Post by Busboy105 on Aug 1, 2021 18:56:02 GMT
Obviously the East London Line has now gone and taken over by London Overground with extensions north to Dalston Junction/Highbury Islington and Crystal Palace/West Croydon and Clapham Junction in the south. It is fair to say the take over by London Overground has been a success. However when I go through New Cross it seems quite simple to stick a set of points and double line between Canal Junction and New Cross to bring trains on to the mainline, this could open useful services to Bromley North/Orpington and maybe Dartford. I wonder if this may happen in the future? I think residents in those three areas would rather want a direct link to Central London rather than Canada Water and Dalston
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Post by Catford94 on Aug 1, 2021 19:26:23 GMT
I'm not sure I've seen anything about this in plans for the SE suburban lines, but ultimately anything is possible. The SE network is one of the most complex and must be close to capacity (if and when pre-covid timetables are reinstated) - arguably this could create more paths north of New Cross, but not sure that the Lewisham area could handle more trains.
A regular through service from Bromley North to somewhere north of Grove Park would be an improvement, but I think part of the argument for not having through trains (they used to run in the peaks at least) was conflicting movements at Grove Park.
The other snag would be the up / northbound service - the pair of tracks at the east side of New Cross station are the fast lines, and while there used to be a link from the 'up side' to the ELL (1950 OS map here), it would be awkward with the current layout of platforms at New Cross, as trains would have to cross the up and down fast lines. Or a new 'overground northbound' platform would be needed on the up fast line, which would still disrupt fast trains.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 1, 2021 19:49:30 GMT
Obviously the East London Line has now gone and taken over by London Overground with extensions north to Dalston Junction/Highbury Islington and Crystal Palace/West Croydon and Clapham Junction in the south. It is fair to say the take over by London Overground has been a success. However when I go through New Cross it seems quite simple to stick a set of points and double line between Canal Junction and New Cross to bring trains on to the mainline, this could open useful services to Bromley North/Orpington and maybe Dartford. I wonder if this may happen in the future? Ideally I think the New Cross service should be extended to Bromley North but there is not the capacity between New Cross and Lewisham and there is the problem of crossing the fast lines at Grove Park and no room for a flyover.
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Post by vjaska on Aug 1, 2021 22:24:31 GMT
I'm not sure I've seen anything about this in plans for the SE suburban lines, but ultimately anything is possible. The SE network is one of the most complex and must be close to capacity (if and when pre-covid timetables are reinstated) - arguably this could create more paths north of New Cross, but not sure that the Lewisham area could handle more trains. A regular through service from Bromley North to somewhere north of Grove Park would be an improvement, but I think part of the argument for not having through trains (they used to run in the peaks at least) was conflicting movements at Grove Park.
The other snag would be the up / northbound service - the pair of tracks at the east side of New Cross station are the fast lines, and while there used to be a link from the 'up side' to the ELL (1950 OS map here), it would be awkward with the current layout of platforms at New Cross, as trains would have to cross the up and down fast lines. Or a new 'overground northbound' platform would be needed on the up fast line, which would still disrupt fast trains. At the very least, there shouldn't be any issue with simply transferring the Victoria to Orpington stopping services to TfL leaving Southeastern to concentrate on the longer distance services - Brixton Station might actually see improvements no matter how small they might be.
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Post by buspete on Aug 1, 2021 23:59:32 GMT
I’m definitely not saying running across the fast lines at New Cross that run to/from Charing Cross, that wouldn’t be possible, as too many conflicting moves. What I am saying is the Overground Train, still goes under the Network Rail Lines, by the skatepark then past the former London Underground depot (which land can never be sold, as it has no road access) and before the train gets to Platform D (the present terminating platform) points are put in to bring trains into Platform C to head towards London suburbs and more points to bring trains into Plaform A to bring trains from the London suburbs on to London Overground.
I mentioned Bromley North for no other reason as it would be a desirable line to connect with London Overground and the benefits of having this service far more outweighs the shuttle service. It would also bring London Underground into a major town centre and give a good but also a very different alternative than Bromley South. But I do realise it comes with its challenges and certainly agree you cannot close the fast lines down to bring trains on to the branch. Money would again need to be spent on a fly over/dive under to avoid those conflicting moves.
Platform D would be surplus to requirements at New Cross, maybe worth keeping for turn backs for engineering works/emergency service regulation.
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Post by 700101 on Aug 2, 2021 6:55:30 GMT
If points were installed from the ELL to platforms B & C, LO could run to/from Hither Green via Lewisham but this would cause issues at Lewisham, SE would need to sacrifice 4 train per hour to avoid Lewisham to cater for LO, the only services that can avoid Lewisham would be Cannon Street loop via Sidcup and Slow Orpington services as they can run direct between Hither Green - St Johns. This would mean passengers who use those services needing to interchange at Hither Green for Lewisham
An extension to Bromley North is currently out of the question as services would need to cross from slow to fast between Hither Green & Grove Park and would create lots of problems, Hither Green would currently be more suitable as services can empty out on platform 4 run ECS to sidings then return for services on platform 3.
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Post by wirewiper on Aug 2, 2021 7:52:15 GMT
I did think at one time that the disused platform at Blackheath could be brought back into use for London Overground, which would allow Lewisham to be plugged into the East London Line. However the rail network in the New Cross and Lewisham area is already so intensively used I doubt it could cope with eight more train movements each hour, especially the Down line at New Cross which would need to find 8 extra slots to accommodate those movements.
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 2, 2021 11:11:15 GMT
I did think at one time that the disused platform at Blackheath could be brought back into use for London Overground, which would allow Lewisham to be plugged into the East London Line. However the rail network in the New Cross and Lewisham area is already so intensively used I doubt it could cope with eight more train movements each hour, especially the Down line at New Cross which would need to find 8 extra slots to accommodate those movements. That could be an option if the Bakerloo line freed up some trains paths but that's probably way in the future.
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Post by buspete on Aug 4, 2021 19:35:21 GMT
I go through Lewisham every day and I wouldn't say the train service is that intense.
You have 8 trains an hour from Cannon Street, when it comes back fully operational and 4 trains an hour from Charing Cross, the service is far from intense,
I did think about bringing the bay road back at Blackheath, they have put a Signal Equipment Room in the middle of the bay road now, it is a good suggestion, but if you're going to run trains to Blackheath, you might as well push them through to Plumstead or Dartford (Bexleyheath Line)
I did say also about Bromley North and putting London Overground there instead, but would need money spent at Grove Park, in the same was as New Cross Gate was.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 5, 2021 8:11:18 GMT
I go through Lewisham every day and I wouldn't say the train service is that intense. You have 8 trains an hour from Cannon Street, when it comes back fully operational and 4 trains an hour from Charing Cross, the service is far from intense, I did think about bringing the bay road back at Blackheath, they have put a Signal Equipment Room in the middle of the bay road now, it is a good suggestion, but if you're going to run trains to Blackheath, you might as well push them through to Plumstead or Dartford (Bexleyheath Line) I did say also about Bromley North and putting London Overground there instead, but would need money spent at Grove Park, in the same was as New Cross Gate was. There is a very intensive service at peak times and as others have said there is no way 4 LO trains per hour in each direction could be accommodated without removing something else. If the Bakerloo Line extension to Hayes ever happens it might free up enough capacity with a few other changes. A flyover at Grove Park is out of the question, not enough room for it apart from the cost, so Orpington or maybe Sidcup (maybe 2tph to each) would be more likely destinations if it ever did happen.
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Post by ThinLizzy on Aug 5, 2021 23:01:44 GMT
I go through Lewisham every day and I wouldn't say the train service is that intense. You have 8 trains an hour from Cannon Street, when it comes back fully operational and 4 trains an hour from Charing Cross, the service is far from intense, I did think about bringing the bay road back at Blackheath, they have put a Signal Equipment Room in the middle of the bay road now, it is a good suggestion, but if you're going to run trains to Blackheath, you might as well push them through to Plumstead or Dartford (Bexleyheath Line) I did say also about Bromley North and putting London Overground there instead, but would need money spent at Grove Park, in the same was as New Cross Gate was. 12 trains per hour in a fixed block signalling area with numerous sets of points, junctions and diversions is a pretty intensive service. This is particularly the case if there are any regular freight or ECS moves through the area
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Post by buspete on Aug 6, 2021 0:40:03 GMT
One issue with delays is the new control room isn’t as efficient as the old smaller control room or signal box before that, I sit sometimes on my train at Tanner Hill Junction for 5-7 minutes sometimes waiting for the computer to allocate the route towards London Bridge, in the meantime a train heading towards Dartford is routed up Tanners Hill Junction to Lewisham. At this time it is safe for my train to be routed onto the main line, as there is no conflicting route, but the computer says no and have to wait to timetable. In the meantime I can see the Cannon Street train that runs 5 minutes later at Bexleyheath pull into St Johns and leave. The super control rooms are inefficient.
I work for London Underground and we route many more trains at Aldgate and Baker Street with many conflicting routes.
I also suggested a fly under at Grove Park if possible.
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Post by rugbyref on Aug 6, 2021 7:19:29 GMT
I'm not sure I've seen anything about this in plans for the SE suburban lines, but ultimately anything is possible. The SE network is one of the most complex and must be close to capacity (if and when pre-covid timetables are reinstated) - arguably this could create more paths north of New Cross, but not sure that the Lewisham area could handle more trains. A regular through service from Bromley North to somewhere north of Grove Park would be an improvement, but I think part of the argument for not having through trains (they used to run in the peaks at least) was conflicting movements at Grove Park.
The other snag would be the up / northbound service - the pair of tracks at the east side of New Cross station are the fast lines, and while there used to be a link from the 'up side' to the ELL (1950 OS map here), it would be awkward with the current layout of platforms at New Cross, as trains would have to cross the up and down fast lines. Or a new 'overground northbound' platform would be needed on the up fast line, which would still disrupt fast trains. At the very least, there shouldn't be any issue with simply transferring the Victoria to Orpington stopping services to TfL leaving Southeastern to concentrate on the longer distance services - Brixton Station might actually see improvements no matter how small they might be. If it ain’t broke......why take something extra into the remit of Khan? He would probably want to punish the residents of Orpington and Bromley for daring to vote against him.
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Post by greenboy on Aug 6, 2021 7:41:33 GMT
At the very least, there shouldn't be any issue with simply transferring the Victoria to Orpington stopping services to TfL leaving Southeastern to concentrate on the longer distance services - Brixton Station might actually see improvements no matter how small they might be. If it ain’t broke......why take something extra into the remit of Khan? He would probably want to punish the residents of Orpington and Bromley for daring to vote against him. No point anyway, there's no capacity to increase services with the line shared by fast and slow trains which requires some intricate timetabling and what happens when engineering work requires the Victoria to Orpington service to be diverted or extended to Sevenoaks or Tonbridge. I think the complex Southeastern network is best left as it is.
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