How many routes still with original operator?

[thelondonthing]

London United's recent loss to Abellio of the 111 - which it had operated since privatisation - came as rather a surprise to me, but it also got me wondering about something.

How many routes in London are still being run by their original post-privatisation operator - or its direct successor - and have never been lost to a rival?

Perhaps it's worth working a few things out before we answer that question...

• If a route switched to another operator, which was then acquired by the previous operator (e.g. 33 from London United to NCP Challenger, which was later acquired by London United), it doesn't count, as the route was officially lost, even if it later came 'home'.
• If a route exists today that is a recognisable 'descendant' of a defunct post-privatisation route (e.g. route H32 replacing the 232), and the new route still remains with the same operator, then let's add it to the list.
• If a route stayed after privatisation with an operator which was subsequently acquired, and it's still with that new owner, I think that should count too (e.g. route 607 operated by CentreWest, acquired by First London, novated to Metroline West). The operator has changed hands, but the route itself has not been lost.
• There will probably be some complications with older routes that have since been split into two or more routes - but we'll burn those bridges when we get to them. And for the sake of simplicity - and my sanity - there seems little point in covering the newest routes that have only been tendered a couple of times. 

Given that there are so many caveats over operators and acquisitions, route splits and revisions, and other minutiae, this could get complicated! 

Even so, the incredible knowledge of many forum members has often blown my mind, so I'm hopeful that we'll be able to get this question answered...  

[SILENCED]

Nov 4, 2021 11:54:18 GMT thelondonthing said:

London United's recent loss to Abellio of the 111 - which it had operated since privatisation - came as rather a surprise to me, but it also got me wondering about something.

How many routes in London are still being run by their original post-privatisation operator - or its direct successor - and have never been lost to a rival?

Perhaps it's worth working a few things out before we answer that question...

• If a route switched to another operator, which was then acquired by the previous operator (e.g. 33 from London United to NCP Challenger, which was later acquired by London United), it doesn't count, as the route was officially lost, even if it later came 'home'.
• If a route exists today that is a recognisable 'descendant' of a defunct post-privatisation route (e.g. route H32 replacing the 232), and the new route still remains with the same operator, then let's add it to the list.
• If a route stayed after privatisation with an operator which was subsequently acquired, and it's still with that new owner, I think that should count too (e.g. route 607 operated by CentreWest, acquired by First London, novated to Metroline West). The operator has changed hands, but the route itself has not been lost.
• There will probably be some complications with older routes that have since been split into two or more routes - but we'll burn those bridges when we get to them. And for the sake of simplicity - and my sanity - there seems little point in covering the newest routes that have only been tendered a couple of times. 

Given that there are so many caveats over operators and acquisitions, route splits and revisions, and other minutiae, this could get complicated! 

Even so, the incredible knowledge of many forum members has often blown my mind, so I'm hopeful that we'll be able to get this question answered...  

Is the qualification since privatisation, 94/95, or since tendering began?

[southlondon413]

Nov 4, 2021 11:54:18 GMT thelondonthing said:

London United's recent loss to Abellio of the 111 - which it had operated since privatisation - came as rather a surprise to me, but it also got me wondering about something.

How many routes in London are still being run by their original post-privatisation operator - or its direct successor - and have never been lost to a rival?

Perhaps it's worth working a few things out before we answer that question...

• If a route switched to another operator, which was then acquired by the previous operator (e.g. 33 from London United to NCP Challenger, which was later acquired by London United), it doesn't count, as the route was officially lost, even if it later came 'home'.
• If a route exists today that is a recognisable 'descendant' of a defunct post-privatisation route (e.g. route H32 replacing the 232), and the new route still remains with the same operator, then let's add it to the list.
• If a route stayed after privatisation with an operator which was subsequently acquired, and it's still with that new owner, I think that should count too (e.g. route 607 operated by CentreWest, acquired by First London, novated to Metroline West). The operator has changed hands, but the route itself has not been lost.
• There will probably be some complications with older routes that have since been split into two or more routes - but we'll burn those bridges when we get to them. And for the sake of simplicity - and my sanity - there seems little point in covering the newest routes that have only been tendered a couple of times. 

Given that there are so many caveats over operators and acquisitions, route splits and revisions, and other minutiae, this could get complicated! 

Even so, the incredible knowledge of many forum members has often blown my mind, so I'm hopeful that we'll be able to get this question answered...  

There are quite a few routes that fall under this category in my area. Just off the top of my head the 80, 93, 151, 154, 155, 163, 164, 213 and 219 have never been lost under privatisation. The 80 also has the distinction of having a sole A allocation since 1934, possibly one of the longest standing depot allocations in London’s Buses history, although that will need verification by someone with more time on their hands.

[wirewiper]

I'll start - routes 388 and 394 have only ever been operated by CT Plus/HCT Group since they were introduced.

The 388 was introduced in January 2003 to provide increased public transport capacity ahead of the introduction of Congestion Charging, and also to provide a better link for the Victoria Park area into The City.

The 394 is even older, having started life in September 2001 as the "Shoreditch Hoppa" operating under a London Service Agreement. CT Plus used two blue minibuses on a half-hourly shuttle between Angel and Broadway Market. TfL took on full responsibility for the route in March 2003, extending the route to Homerton Hospital and doubling the frequency, and awarded a full contract to CT Plus from that date.

Indeed, both routes have not only been operated by CT Plus/HCT Group since their inceptions, they were both awarded two successive two-year extensions, in 2008 and again in 2015.

[WH241]

A few Stagecoach ones: 8,86,241,330

Will add more later.

[thelondonthing]

Nov 4, 2021 12:10:39 GMT SILENCED said:

Is the qualification since privatisation, 94/95, or since tendering began?

Either is good for me. I wouldn't want to narrow things down too much!

[southlondonbus]

I think the 80 is the longest now. The 76 had a long spell at AR till 1998 when it went to First.

The 101 was the longest I believe till U closed in 2011 and lost from Stagecoach now anyways.

[​galwhv69]

Go Ahead route 424

[wirewiper]

If you count the Stagecoach London/East London Bus Group/Stagecoach London continuum as a single operator, it has held route 8 continuously. Indeed the 8 has had a daily allocation from one garage (BW) since November 1959, apart from the period between January 1988 and July 1992 when the Sunday service was one-man-operated out of WH*

* the old WH, the former tram/trolleybus depot in Greengate Street which closed in 1992 and not today's incarnation.

[vjaska]

Let’s do my area from the LBL era onwards:

The 2 has been with Cowie & Arriva since privatisation as did its old numbers the 2A & 2B albeit under South London. The current 2 & former 2A have operated solely from N

The 37 was solely run from under London General upon privatisation (London United had a allocation until 1991 before privatisation and the split of the route into 37, 337 & H37 so not sure if it counts) and from SW until it transferred within Go-Ahead to PM under London Central in 2004 where it’s remained ever since

The 59 has been with Arriva since it’s introduction in 1999

The 137 was under South London followed Cowie & then by Arriva - it had a small period at AK before it shut but has been at BN throughout its tenure with a small allocation at N in the last few years. The route was split in 1991 with a 137A forming and it too stayed at South London, Cowie & Arriva and later renumbered 417 - it started off at AK & BN before eventually ending up at N a year later and remaining ever since

The 250 was introduced under South London in 1988 and has stayed with Cowie & Arriva ever since mainly staying at Th throughout this time though did start off at AK (Streatham) and has had an allocation at BN on a few occasions

The 319 was introduced under South London in 1993 and continued on to Cowie & Arriva. It has always operated from BN and recently became Arriva London’s first electric double decker route and BN’s first electric route

The 355 was London General for a long period including remaining at AL from introduction in 1990 until 2012 when it transferred within Go-Ahead to Q & London Central and then to C & Metrobus in 2016

The P4 since privatisation has been solely under Selkent either under Stagecoach or East London Bus Group and solely at TL throughout this time. Before 1991, it was with Kentish Bus

[wirewiper]

Cowie Group/Arriva London has held on to a number of major routes since it took over Leaside Buses and South London Transport in the mid-1990s - the 2, 29, 38, 73, 159 and 253/254 all come to mind.

Edit: 159 was lost to Abellio in 2015. Apologies - Memory Fail!

[thelondonthing]

Nov 4, 2021 13:13:25 GMT vjaska said:

The 37 was solely run from under London General upon privatisation (London United had a allocation until 1991 before privatisation and the split of the route into 37, 337 & H37 so not sure if it counts) and from SW until it transferred within Go-Ahead to PM under London Central in 2004 where it’s remained ever since

The 37 was one of those 'headache waiting to happen' split routes I was referring to - to keep things simple, I say it counts!

[vjaska]

Nov 4, 2021 13:18:41 GMT wirewiper said:

Cowie Group/Arriva London has held on to a number of major routes since it took over Leaside Buses and South London Transport in the mid-1990s - the 2, 29, 38, 73, 159 and 253/254 all come to mind.

They lost the 159 to Abellio

[wirewiper]

Nov 4, 2021 13:23:00 GMT vjaska said:

Nov 4, 2021 13:18:41 GMT wirewiper said:

Cowie Group/Arriva London has held on to a number of major routes since it took over Leaside Buses and South London Transport in the mid-1990s - the 2, 29, 38, 73, 159 and 253/254 all come to mind.

They lost the 159 to Abellio

You are right - memory fail! 

[COBO]

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