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Post by DE20106 on Aug 11, 2024 22:08:29 GMT
The AC that you experience on the EvoSeti’s is exactly that the Norwich electroliners are like. What’s more is I actually remember being really impressed with the EvoSeti’s cooling system when they were new, the 17-reg TT ones, and GAL’s first 16-reg batch blew out ice cold air when they were new. Maybe due to the cheaper build quality the air systems have degraded over time. Luckily the MCV bodywork on the BZL DD’s has really been stepped up, the air cooling on 86181 worked a treat too. Hope it lasts this time as they age! ADL buses are generally a hit or miss with their AC some work fine and some barely breathe out any form of air on you, despite coming from the same fleet and garage. I do recall in winter that the EV's on the 366 would always be blowing out cold air into the interior and making the handrails uncomfortably cold to hold onto, whilst the 396 batch seem to mostly have their AC's off Ahhh I’m glad you pointed that out with ADL vehicles. I’ve also been on different BYDs with GAL with varying degrees of air cooling. I took Ee104 on the 353 during 2023’s hot June, and it was honestly like the Air Con you get in a Premier Inn. It fooled me into thinking proper air conditioning was part of GAL’s new bus spec, and if was absolutely exceptional. A joy to be on in the hot weather. Then last week I took Ee223 in similarly hot weather and the air cooling was non existent, and was pretty unpleasant. I wonder if the driver just hadn’t switched it on though as when the ADL AC is on full blast there distinctively isn’t enough power for the LCD iBus display to work properly, no such issues with that on Ee223 |
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Post by 365tohaveringpark on Aug 11, 2024 22:11:26 GMT
Ahhh I’m glad you pointed that out with ADL vehicles. I’ve also been on different BYDs with GAL with varying degrees of air cooling. I took Ee104 on the 353 during 2023’s hot June, and it was honestly like the Air Con you get in a Premier Inn. It fooled me into being proper air conditioning and was absolutely exceptional, a joy to be in the hot weather. Then last week I took Ee223 in similarly hot weather and the air cooling was non existent, and was pretty unpleasant. I wonder if the driver just hadn’t switched it on though as when the ADL AC is on full blast there distinctively isn’t enough power for the LCD iBus display to work properly, no such issues with that on Ee223 Even on the older MMC's from NS you get drivers on the 294 with AC on full blast and some with it fully off which isn't the best especially with how hot MMC's get in the summer |
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Post by ServerKing on Aug 11, 2024 22:56:39 GMT
Voith electric drive should be quite different than conventional diesel. Not sure if they will have "gears", like the Volvo BZL 2 speed box. Yeah but we'll see if the bus is chronically underpowered, slow or loud like other Voiths It's electric, I doubt power or torque will be an issue. It's not like the slow 3 speed E200s  |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Aug 12, 2024 11:38:06 GMT
They also aren't particularly fantastic at getting air circulation neither. Best breeze you get from those is when the bus turns and the air is forced in sideways as a result. I disagree - the sliders used on the step entrance vehicles were excellent in bringing air into the saloon. Many hopper windows are poor in comparison. Eastlondoner62 hopper windows have issues with the rain, particularly at the front of old body Enviro 400's. There is no issue with bringing circulation in through sliding windows - the LT's are a poor example because they radiate so much heat to begin with The bigger hoppers are quite decent though -- then again I believe it's because there's also forced ventilation which enables air to flow from the very front to the very back through outlets/inlets on these buses iirc which works well with the hoppers. Something the LTs lack very much (the sliding windows being in the middle only not helping -- and only on one side on the lower deck -- hard to force an air flow with openings only on one side). |
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Post by vjaska on Aug 12, 2024 11:46:19 GMT
I disagree - the sliders used on the step entrance vehicles were excellent in bringing air into the saloon. Many hopper windows are poor in comparison. Eastlondoner62 hopper windows have issues with the rain, particularly at the front of old body Enviro 400's. There is no issue with bringing circulation in through sliding windows - the LT's are a poor example because they radiate so much heat to begin with The bigger hoppers are quite decent though -- then again I believe it's because there's also forced ventilation which enables air to flow from the very front to the very back through outlets/inlets on these buses iirc which works well with the hoppers. Something the LTs lack very much (the sliding windows being in the middle only not helping -- and only on one side on the lower deck -- hard to force an air flow with openings only on one side). Hence why I said most - the hopper windows on Eclipse & Pulsar Geminis as well as Gemini2’s are bigger and do a decent job but most buses have smaller hopper windows which aren’t as great. The LT is a seriously flawed vehicle when it comes to air flow in general. Compare them to the step entrance buses which had usually four sliding windows downstairs (two each side), six upstairs (three each side) and two hopper windows in the front windows upstairs. This is why the sliding windows aren’t the issue at all - if I had my way, sliding windows would be implemented on all buses. |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Aug 12, 2024 12:05:07 GMT
The bigger hoppers are quite decent though -- then again I believe it's because there's also forced ventilation which enables air to flow from the very front to the very back through outlets/inlets on these buses iirc which works well with the hoppers. Something the LTs lack very much (the sliding windows being in the middle only not helping -- and only on one side on the lower deck -- hard to force an air flow with openings only on one side). Hence why I said most - the hopper windows on Eclipse & Pulsar Geminis as well as Gemini2’s are bigger and do a decent job but most buses have smaller hopper windows which aren’t as great. The LT is a seriously flawed vehicle when it comes to air flow in general. Compare them to the step entrance buses which had usually four sliding windows downstairs (two each side), six upstairs (three each side) and two hopper windows in the front windows upstairs. This is why the sliding windows aren’t the issue at all - if I had my way, sliding windows would be implemented on all buses. I find that the E400s with hoppers (not particularly big but at basically every window) also work very decently.
I don't actually know how MCVs ended up with such small hoppers? Did the TfL bus spec change since then? It certainly doesn't seem to meet the %age requirements for openable window surface space on the current spec?
A few key things you mentioned there from step-entrance buses which I think are particularly key is notably the hopper windows at the front which guarantees air flow from the very very front (sliding windows there would do the trick too, Hong Kong's non air-conditioned buses had sliding)... something which unfortunately doesn't seem to cooperate well with the design-focused fronts of buses today. Some types do better than others with forced ventilation at replicating this air flow.
Buses in Hong Kong also had air intakes (same concept as the 1973 stock for example) above basically all windows along the sides which was also good... especially when rain meant people closed the sliding windows. That seems to be eschewed in newer buses too.
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Post by lonmark on Aug 12, 2024 12:34:03 GMT
I am so looking forward to riding on this new 400EV on route SL3 when I am on the way to work. :-)
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Post by vjaska on Aug 12, 2024 13:28:56 GMT
Hence why I said most - the hopper windows on Eclipse & Pulsar Geminis as well as Gemini2’s are bigger and do a decent job but most buses have smaller hopper windows which aren’t as great. The LT is a seriously flawed vehicle when it comes to air flow in general. Compare them to the step entrance buses which had usually four sliding windows downstairs (two each side), six upstairs (three each side) and two hopper windows in the front windows upstairs. This is why the sliding windows aren’t the issue at all - if I had my way, sliding windows would be implemented on all buses. I find that the E400s with hoppers (not particularly big but at basically every window) also work very decently. I don't actually know how MCVs ended up with such small hoppers? Did the TfL bus spec change since then? It certainly doesn't seem to meet the %age requirements for openable window surface space on the current spec? A few key things you mentioned there from step-entrance buses which I think are particularly key is notably the hopper windows at the front which guarantees air flow from the very very front (sliding windows there would do the trick too, Hong Kong's non air-conditioned buses had sliding)... something which unfortunately doesn't seem to cooperate well with the design-focused fronts of buses today. Some types do better than others with forced ventilation at replicating this air flow. Buses in Hong Kong also had air intakes (same concept as the 1973 stock for example) above basically all windows along the sides which was also good... especially when rain meant people closed the sliding windows. That seems to be eschewed in newer buses too.
MCV Evosetis are one of the worst for poor air control so not surprised to hear concerns around the small hoppers - have been on some extremely hot rides on them compared to other vehicles minus LT's The front hopper windows do help but even on examples where the front hopper windows were replaced due to weathering (something that seemed to inflict Titans more than others), the air control was still very good. Once the 90's came along, the front window hopper was pretty much consigned to history as most step entrance buses from that era like Volvo Olympians didn't carry front hopper windows either though the Volvos turn of speed did assist with air control despite having no sliding windows on non Irish examples |
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Post by southlondonbus on Aug 12, 2024 16:17:59 GMT
I find that the E400s with hoppers (not particularly big but at basically every window) also work very decently. I don't actually know how MCVs ended up with such small hoppers? Did the TfL bus spec change since then? It certainly doesn't seem to meet the %age requirements for openable window surface space on the current spec? A few key things you mentioned there from step-entrance buses which I think are particularly key is notably the hopper windows at the front which guarantees air flow from the very very front (sliding windows there would do the trick too, Hong Kong's non air-conditioned buses had sliding)... something which unfortunately doesn't seem to cooperate well with the design-focused fronts of buses today. Some types do better than others with forced ventilation at replicating this air flow. Buses in Hong Kong also had air intakes (same concept as the 1973 stock for example) above basically all windows along the sides which was also good... especially when rain meant people closed the sliding windows. That seems to be eschewed in newer buses too.
MCV Evosetis are one of the worst for poor air control so not surprised to hear concerns around the small hoppers - have been on some extremely hot rides on them compared to other vehicles minus LT's The front hopper windows do help but even on examples where the front hopper windows were replaced due to weathering (something that seemed to inflict Titans more than others), the air control was still very good. Once the 90's came along, the front window hopper was pretty much consigned to history as most step entrance buses from that era like Volvo Olympians didn't carry front hopper windows either though the Volvos turn of speed did assist with air control despite having no sliding windows on non Irish examples Yes it seemed from 1990 onwards most Titans lost the windows where's the Ms and Ls I'm sure retained them till the end. |
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Post by cl54 on Aug 12, 2024 16:54:55 GMT
Evosetis are by far the worst buses I've ever experienced in the summer, the windows are far too small and the AC is pathetic. The AC that you experience on the EvoSeti’s is exactly that the Norwich electroliners are like. What’s more is I actually remember being really impressed with the EvoSeti’s cooling system when they were new, the 17-reg TT ones, and GAL’s first 16-reg batch blew out ice cold air when they were new. Maybe due to the cheaper build quality the air systems have degraded over time. Luckily the MCV bodywork on the BZL DD’s has really been stepped up, the air cooling on 86181 worked a treat too. Hope it lasts this time as they age! There is no AC on London buses. Only air chilling. It would make the vehicles too heavy for TfL specs. It fights a losing battle with opening windows. |
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Post by DE20106 on Aug 12, 2024 19:36:23 GMT
The AC that you experience on the EvoSeti’s is exactly that the Norwich electroliners are like. What’s more is I actually remember being really impressed with the EvoSeti’s cooling system when they were new, the 17-reg TT ones, and GAL’s first 16-reg batch blew out ice cold air when they were new. Maybe due to the cheaper build quality the air systems have degraded over time. Luckily the MCV bodywork on the BZL DD’s has really been stepped up, the air cooling on 86181 worked a treat too. Hope it lasts this time as they age! There is no AC on London buses. Only air chilling. It would make the vehicles too heavy for TfL specs. It fights a losing battle with opening windows. I know there isn’t, it was a lazy abbreviation for air cooling, full well knowing it could also mean air con 🤣🤣🤣 |
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Post by SILENCED on Aug 12, 2024 20:13:42 GMT
There is no AC on London buses. Only air chilling. It would make the vehicles too heavy for TfL specs. It fights a losing battle with opening windows. I know there isn’t, it was a lazy abbreviation for air cooling, full well knowing it could also mean air con 🤣🤣🤣 Another argument for tri-axles. The extra 6 tonnes of GWT would allow for full air con. |
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Post by 365tohaveringpark on Aug 13, 2024 13:03:22 GMT
It's electric, I doubt power or torque will be an issue. It's not like the slow 3 speed E200s Yes but the ADL BYDs are slower than Electroliners, at accelerating, so it could be that the Voith ones are just as slow or slower. |
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Post by M1104 on Aug 13, 2024 14:12:19 GMT
It's electric, I doubt power or torque will be an issue. It's not like the slow 3 speed E200s Yes but the ADL BYDs are slower than Electroliners, at accelerating, so it could be that the Voith ones are just as slow or slower. They're also slower than the Me class Metrodeckers, perhaps purposely governed during pullaway stage as they do pick up power once they get going. Also bear in mind the ADL BYDs are long wheel base which contributes to a degree on overall performance |
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Post by matthieu1221 on Aug 13, 2024 16:30:22 GMT
I know there isn’t, it was a lazy abbreviation for air cooling, full well knowing it could also mean air con 🤣🤣🤣 Another argument for tri-axles. The extra 6 tonnes of GWT would allow for full air con. Hong Kong might end up getting some short (10m ish) electric tri-axles at some point in the future. One would think ADL would be interested as it is the HK market after all... the dual-axle E400 they have (with ACs) which are reaching 12 ish years old this year are having some chassis issues -- likely a combination of harsh road conditions, routing overloading and load of AC on a dual-axle (GWT limit on dual-axles was relaxed to allow E400s to be used actually). So the likely replacement -- as well considering the extra weight of batteries -- will likely have to be a tri-axle (and Hong Kong has had short -- 10.3m and 10.6m low floor air conditioned tri-axles before so short tri-axles that would suit London are not exactly new)!
Would be nice if ADL could get some TfL spec stuff for them to give it a spin but I suspect they've (prudently) figured out that it's still a no-go... though who knows if 11.3m replacements are wanted for NRMs -- one would expect an 11.3m E500EV to be simple enough as the 12m version already exists.
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