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Post by uakari on Jun 3, 2024 22:37:10 GMT
There aren't any buses from Harrow to Barnet (which is the town that the borough is named after). The previous round was giving two more routes to North Finchley (which is already seen by TfL as deserving of multiple new and extended services despite not being much of destination itself), when the superloop south of the river was in actual outer London that is most disadvantaged by ULEZ (zones 5 and 6, not 3 and 4). So this seemingly is an attempt to rectify that, although more of a concern is why they won't restore the 384 to the routing it was designed for if they are adding another 'direct' route to Edgware from Barnet. In all fairness, until a consultation appears, we have no idea what additional changes to existing routes will happen along any of the second batch of Superloop routes. My gut says the 384 will be pulled back to Quinta Drive as it used to be but sadly, I’ve a feeling they won’t restore the rest of the routing even though I think they should Thereby rendering it even less useful so they can withdraw it. Yeah we know how it goes by now. |
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Post by ilovelondonbuses on Jun 7, 2024 23:46:57 GMT
So I thought I'd put my twopenneth in regarding these proposed new routes and some predictions: Harrow to Barnet, via Edgware - I think there's long been a need for a faster TfL route across Barnet borough - I've suggested an 'X307' route here many times before - the 384 went some way to doing this, although remains constrained by the Quinta Drive diversion and use of smaller single decks. It'll be interesting to see the frequency of this route as a standard 5bph frequency will be a significant increase over the 107 and 384 which are both low-frequency routes. I suspect this will run via Canons Park and then straight up the A1 with a little drop in at Barnet Hospital, terminating at New Barnet - and hopefully using double decks (probably a Metroline route) - personally I'd run this through to Enfield rather than Barnet. Barnet to Stratford, via Enfield and Chingford - this looks a good route with the provision of a faster bus between Stratford, Walthamstow and Chingford - really the Hall Farm curve should reopen allowing for direct passenger trains, but this could be a great alternative in the meantime. Personally, I'd terminate it at Enfield rather than Barnet with the Barnet to Harrow route covering Enfield instead. Again, it'll be interesting to see the frequency of this route as a standard 5bph frequency will be again be quite an increase over the existing 307/313 routes. I suspect this will be an Arriva route. Leytonstone to South Havering, via Gants Hill and Romford - there appears to be a degree of duplication with this route and the 66 however it does offer the opportunity to boost journey times further by perhaps skipping out Snaresbrook and offer some extra capacity on a corridor that has seen consistent growth (build it and they will come...) - I suspect it'll run south from Romford to Hornchurch and Rainham to fulfill some stakeholder demands for more bus links North-South in Havering borough. Again, I think this will be an Arriva route.
North Greenwich to Thamesmead, via Woolwich - this looks to be more of a BRT route with a consolidated stop pattern than limited stop, this looks a good idea and really the original Greenwich Waterfront Transit should never have been cancelled. This should really use open-board vehicles, be that tri-axle doubles or artics. I suspect this will be a 'beefed up' 472 with that route being withdrawn entirely. ‘Bakerloop line’: Elephant and Castle to Lewisham, via Old Kent Road and New Cross - as I've said previously this is a sensible move to speed up journeys along the line of the Bakerloo extension until it can be built and offer a faster direct bus from Lewisham to Elephant. Streatham to Eltham, via Tulse Hill and Lee - this looks a most interesting one. I suspect it will be a single deck route and the routing will be interesting to see, I presume it will run right along the South Circ via Catford. Richmond to Wimbledon, via Roehampton - I'm interested to see the finer details of this one. I presume it will go straight up past Wimbledon common and then skip out Putney Heath to serve Roehampton and South Circ. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if this involved a tweak of the 493. Ealing Broadway to Kingston, via Great West Road and Richmond - I've long suggested an X65 route. It's a yes from me, although it will be interesting to see what they do with the standard 65, if anything at all. Hounslow to Hammersmith, via Great West Road - I presume this will skip out Chiswick High Road to cater for longer journeys and then run to the town centre. Quite an interesting one given the H91 already does similar to this. Hendon to Ealing Broadway, via Brent Cross and Hanger Lane - again, another one I've long since suggested and indeed predicted - an 'X112' is much needed given how busy the normal 112s are. I hope this runs via Ealing Common so it can use double decks. A great idea nonetheless. Think that's it... I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the Superloop 2 routes. In the order the routes were placed, I think these routes will be numbered SL11-SL20 although there's still some uncertainty around the Bakerloop route and if TFL are going to actively differentiate the route from the other Superloop routes. I'm also interested to find out your reasoning behind your prediction that you think the Streatham to Eltham route will be a single decker route. On the operators front, here are my predictions SL11 (Harrow to Barnet) - Metroline SL12 (Barnet to Stratford) - Arriva SL13 (Leytonstone to South Havering) - Stagecoach SL14 (North Greenwich to Thamesmead) - Stagecoach SL15 (Bakerloop line: Elephant & Castle - Lewisham) - Go-Ahead SL16 (Streatham - Eltham) - Arriva SL17 (Richmond to Wimbledon) - Go-Ahead SL18 (Ealing Broadway to Kingston) - RATP or Transport UK SL19 (Hounslow to Hammersmith) - RATP or Metroline SL20 (Hendon to Ealing Broadway) - Metroline It will be interesting to see how these routes are incorporated into the tendering programme, will all 10 routes be put into one major tranche or will the Superloop 2 routes being split into tranches going by geographical area. For example; SL11, SL12 and SL13 forming an North/East London Superloop tranche and SL14, SL15 and SL16 forming an South East London Superloop tranche etc. My updated predictions on which operator will operate the Superloop 2 routes; SL11 - Metroline (PB) SL12 - Go-Ahead (NP) SL13 - Stagecoach (RM) or Arriva (GY) SL14 - Stagecoach (PD) SL15 - Go-Ahead (NX) SL16 - Arriva (BN) SL17 - Transport UK (BC) SL18 - RATP (FW) SL19 - RATP (WK) SL20 - RATP (BT) or Metroline (W) As you can see I have made some changes and made firmer choices on who I think will operate the new Superloop 2 routes. For example; The proposed Wimbledon to Richmond route which speculated to be called 'SL17' could be operated by Transport UK from their Beddington Cross garage with driver changeovers being done at Wimbledon via the London Tramlink from Beddington Lane. With all of the nearby Go-Ahead's garages in the South West being full or nearly full, I think this could be a strong possibility for Transport UK to gain this Superloop route when it is added to the tendering programme and goes out for tender considering Beddington still has some space left to operate this route. |
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Post by MKAY315 on Jun 8, 2024 5:13:16 GMT
I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the Superloop 2 routes. In the order the routes were placed, I think these routes will be numbered SL11-SL20 although there's still some uncertainty around the Bakerloop route and if TFL are going to actively differentiate the route from the other Superloop routes. I'm also interested to find out your reasoning behind your prediction that you think the Streatham to Eltham route will be a single decker route. On the operators front, here are my predictions SL11 (Harrow to Barnet) - Metroline SL12 (Barnet to Stratford) - Arriva SL13 (Leytonstone to South Havering) - Stagecoach SL14 (North Greenwich to Thamesmead) - Stagecoach SL15 (Bakerloop line: Elephant & Castle - Lewisham) - Go-Ahead SL16 (Streatham - Eltham) - Arriva SL17 (Richmond to Wimbledon) - Go-Ahead SL18 (Ealing Broadway to Kingston) - RATP or Transport UK SL19 (Hounslow to Hammersmith) - RATP or Metroline SL20 (Hendon to Ealing Broadway) - Metroline It will be interesting to see how these routes are incorporated into the tendering programme, will all 10 routes be put into one major tranche or will the Superloop 2 routes being split into tranches going by geographical area. For example; SL11, SL12 and SL13 forming an North/East London Superloop tranche and SL14, SL15 and SL16 forming an South East London Superloop tranche etc. My updated predictions on which operator will operate the Superloop 2 routes; SL11 - Metroline (PB) SL12 - Go-Ahead (NP) SL13 - Stagecoach (RM) or Arriva (GY) SL14 - Stagecoach (PD) SL15 - Go-Ahead (NX) SL16 - Arriva (BN) SL17 - Transport UK (BC) SL18 - RATP (FW) SL19 - RATP (WK) SL20 - RATP (BT) or Metroline (W) As you can see I have made some changes and made firmer choices on who I think will operate the new Superloop 2 routes. For example; The proposed Wimbledon to Richmond route which speculated to be called 'SL17' could be operated by Transport UK from their Beddington Cross garage with driver changeovers being done at Wimbledon via the London Tramlink from Beddington Lane. With all of the nearby Go-Ahead's garages in the South West being full or nearly full, I think this could be a strong possibility for Transport UK to gain this Superloop route when it is added to the tendering programme and goes out for tender considering Beddington still has some space left to operate this route. LI (if they have space) could also run the SL13 as it's very close to the Leytonstone end of the route. |
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Post by londonboy71 on Jun 9, 2024 11:47:55 GMT
Why does it matter what type of bus is used. I'm sure 99% of pax dont care as long as it turns up
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mw83
Cleaner
Posts: 31
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Post by mw83 on Jun 9, 2024 21:50:07 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station
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Post by mondraker275 on Jun 10, 2024 7:59:19 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station Not sure what the benefit of that would be? 66 uniquely serves New Wanstead Road and people would want to go to Leytonstone. "SL13" would almost certainly stop at Wanstead and finish at Leytonstone non-stop. Whipps Cross area has just been reviewed so not sure there is another need for a bus from Wanstead area to Whipps Cross. However, the phase 2 diagram does not have a Leytonstone station symbol and if it is intentional and not a mistake it could be that the plan is for "SL13" to terminate at Whipps Cross but with the aim to connect towns it must almost certainly serve Leytonstone. It could terminate at Leytonstone, Harrow Green but that would just increase what already looks like a long route. |
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Post by britishguy54 on Jun 10, 2024 10:09:50 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station No. Maybe a solution could be to withdraw the 296 and let the 66 cover Marks Gate. Or just withdraw the 396 and let the 296 double-run at King George Hospital. |
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Jun 10, 2024 10:43:27 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station No. Maybe a solution could be to withdraw the 296 and let the 66 cover Marks Gate. Or just withdraw the 396 and let the 296 double-run at King George Hospital. The 296 would become impossible to use double running the hospital. The 66 double running via Marks Gate might not be a bad shout though. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 10, 2024 11:10:17 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. More generally though with the proposed Superloop route, I think the existing 66 is already adequate, since it uses the dual carriageway most of the way, so a limited stop route here wouldn't offer much advantage. If more capacity is needed, maybe convert the 296 to DDs? There's already the Central Line too between Leytonstone and Newbury Park, and for some journeys there's the option of changing at Stratford for the Elizabeth line to Romford. |
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Post by MKAY315 on Jun 10, 2024 14:37:53 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. More generally though with the proposed Superloop route, I think the existing 66 is already adequate, since it uses the dual carriageway most of the way, so a limited stop route here wouldn't offer much advantage. If more capacity is needed, maybe convert the 296 to DDs? There's already the Central Line too between Leytonstone and Newbury Park, and for some journeys there's the option of changing at Stratford for the Elizabeth line to Romford. Swapping the 145 with the W19 for Ilford and Leytonstone might be a bit difficult. As you have the Eastern Avenue traffic to deal with and it can be really bad, plus that section of the 145 are really happy with the double decker service on that route. You take that away from them it will get messy very quickly as they've been used to it for 20 plus years now. |
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Post by YX18KVJ (DLE30221) on Jun 10, 2024 15:37:20 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. More generally though with the proposed Superloop route, I think the existing 66 is already adequate, since it uses the dual carriageway most of the way, so a limited stop route here wouldn't offer much advantage. If more capacity is needed, maybe convert the 296 to DDs? There's already the Central Line too between Leytonstone and Newbury Park, and for some journeys there's the option of changing at Stratford for the Elizabeth line to Romford. Out of Interest,does anyone know why the W19 uses 9.6m darts?I was in Walthamstow yesterday and almost every W19 was packed .Are there length restrictions along Argall Avenue? |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 10, 2024 16:00:02 GMT
If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. More generally though with the proposed Superloop route, I think the existing 66 is already adequate, since it uses the dual carriageway most of the way, so a limited stop route here wouldn't offer much advantage. If more capacity is needed, maybe convert the 296 to DDs? There's already the Central Line too between Leytonstone and Newbury Park, and for some journeys there's the option of changing at Stratford for the Elizabeth line to Romford. Out of Interest,does anyone know why the W19 uses 9.6m darts?I was in Walthamstow yesterday and almost every W19 was packed .Are there length restrictions along Argall Avenue? No as 10.2m Enviro 200's have done the route before and on a regular basis too (I think even 10.8m ones may have gone out) and I've even used SE27 on the route before. Argall Avenue should have no issues even when buses had to use the council's refuse site to connect between South Access Road & Argall Avenue. |
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Post by ADH45258 on Jun 10, 2024 16:10:08 GMT
If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. More generally though with the proposed Superloop route, I think the existing 66 is already adequate, since it uses the dual carriageway most of the way, so a limited stop route here wouldn't offer much advantage. If more capacity is needed, maybe convert the 296 to DDs? There's already the Central Line too between Leytonstone and Newbury Park, and for some journeys there's the option of changing at Stratford for the Elizabeth line to Romford. Out of Interest,does anyone know why the W19 uses 9.6m darts?I was in Walthamstow yesterday and almost every W19 was packed .Are there length restrictions along Argall Avenue? At the moment the W19 is currently allocated a small number of 10.2m E200s (11reg, ex-First/Metroline). However these are likely to be replaced by something newer for the new contract, so could end up fully 9.6m again. I don't think Argall Avenue is particularly tight, TFL has previously proposed sending a DD route this way. The W19 hasn't seen anything longer under Stagecoach/HCT, as AW have never had any SDs longer than 10.2m. But looking on LVF, the W19 had often used E200s from the 364/376 when at Go Ahead, which are 10.8m. |
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Post by routew15 on Jun 10, 2024 16:32:20 GMT
If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. More generally though with the proposed Superloop route, I think the existing 66 is already adequate, since it uses the dual carriageway most of the way, so a limited stop route here wouldn't offer much advantage. If more capacity is needed, maybe convert the 296 to DDs? There's already the Central Line too between Leytonstone and Newbury Park, and for some journeys there's the option of changing at Stratford for the Elizabeth line to Romford. Swapping the 145 with the W19 for Ilford and Leytonstone might be a bit difficult. As you have the Eastern Avenue traffic to deal with and it can be really bad, plus that section of the 145 are really happy with the double decker service on that route. You take that away from them it will get messy very quickly as they've been used to it for 20 plus years now. I agree and I’d go further and say a lot of links would be broken with this swap of the W19/145. There are a lot of through journeys to/from Leyton/Whipps Cross via Leytonstone on the W19, putting a interchange at Leytonstone would be counterproductive. |
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Post by enviroPB on Jun 10, 2024 20:28:26 GMT
SL13 Leytonstone to rainham via Romford. Then the 66 could be withdrawn from Leytonstone and extended to whipscross bus station If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. {Snipped to conserve space} Have you seen the traffic on Romford Road?! A resounding no for the 145 heading through Manor Park! Yes the A12 can jam up at times but is much more reliable than going through Manor Park on any day of the week. In a very unusual practice the W19 actually supports double deck route 101 through Aldersbrook; if it were the 145 instead an abundance of Manor Park and Aldersbrook turns would see many residents struggling to get to Leytonstone. At least on the A12 there is assistance from the 66 and the W13 post September in Wanstead. If this link is needed, a better option would be to extend the 357 fron Whipps Cross, maybe terminating at Redbridge Station? Or even consider swapping the 145/W19 between Leytonstone and Ilford? Yes the W19 is restricted to SDs, but it has a higher frequency than the 145, so capacity would be similar overall, and could also introduce longer 10.8m SDs on the W19. Not many links would be broken, as Manor Park would still have the Overground to/from Walthamstow. {Snip} Out of Interest,does anyone know why the W19 uses 9.6m darts?I was in Walthamstow yesterday and almost every W19 was packed .Are there length restrictions along Argall Avenue? Because TfL has specified 9.6m buses, simple as that. When GAL took over the route in 2006, they frequently put on longer buses on Sundays and in the evenings particularly as punters made use of this new service for the first time (W19 only ran before 7pm Mon-Sat). And fair play to 'em, almost every opportunity to use spares was taken. Be it sister MCV Evos from the 167 (10.8m), SEs from the 300 (10.2m) and first gen SEs from the 364 (10.8m), you cannot say GAL didn't try on their end to address overcrowding. I believe the current 9.6m E200s were to appease Argall Avenue residents who were upset that buses were traversing their narrow road more frequently, and TfL intended for years to standardise Argall Avenue workings to all times but were awaiting on Waltham Forest to execute that plan. So yes, this was probably the compromise to the Argall Avenue residents. Considering the W19's daytime frequency tripled in little over 10 years, I could see their rationale then but its bus length may need rethinking now. |
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