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Post by COBO on Apr 21, 2024 13:50:19 GMT
They might not be legitimate they might not happen they shouldn’t be legitimate until actual consultations regarding them have been released. Right now they are Khan election proposals they might not happen even if he’s elected again so right now they should taken as a pinch of salt. Yes they are proposals but so was Superloop and if anything were to be taken with a pinch of salt that would've been it, but they have been consulted on and enacted in good time just like promised. There's no reason to think that he wouldn't. Obviously this is dependent on him winning the election but you'd be daft if you thought Susan Hall had a good shot at winning. But even so they can’t be seen as legitimate until their is actual consultations regarding them has been released. Right now they are just election promises.
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Post by WH241 on Apr 21, 2024 14:02:14 GMT
They might not be legitimate they might not happen they shouldn’t be legitimate until actual consultations regarding them have been released. Right now they are Khan election proposals they might not happen even if he’s elected again so right now they should taken as a pinch of salt. Yes they are proposals but so was Superloop and if anything were to be taken with a pinch of salt that would've been it, but they have been consulted on and enacted in good time just like promised. There's no reason to think that he wouldn't. Obviously this is dependent on him winning the election but you'd be daft if you thought Susan Hall had a good shot at winning. The difference is the original Superloop weren’t dependent on a election outcome.
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Post by PGAT on Apr 21, 2024 14:06:16 GMT
Yes they are proposals but so was Superloop and if anything were to be taken with a pinch of salt that would've been it, but they have been consulted on and enacted in good time just like promised. There's no reason to think that he wouldn't. Obviously this is dependent on him winning the election but you'd be daft if you thought Susan Hall had a good shot at winning. The difference is the original Superloop weren’t dependent on a election outcome. But that doesnt matter much because Khan has got the win in the bag. He could probably put nothing on his manifesto and people would still vote just to keep Hall out
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Post by matthieu1221 on Apr 21, 2024 19:37:35 GMT
I don’t understand the point of the route from Thamesmead to North Greenwich at all, especially considering the 180 and 472 don’t take that long from Woolwich to North Greenwich with the bus priority having been improved over almost the entirety of that section. Also I wonder how that fits in to the Abbey Wood to Woolwich via Thamesmead BRT which already has gotten some central government funding.
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Post by COBO on Apr 21, 2024 19:39:07 GMT
The difference is the original Superloop weren’t dependent on a election outcome. But that doesnt matter much because Khan has got the win in the bag. He could probably put nothing on his manifesto and people would still vote just to keep Hall out But his problem is his controversial ULEZ and that could be an issue for him.
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Post by joefrombow on Apr 21, 2024 19:58:51 GMT
My god it’s like some people don’t understand that these proposals aren’t legit and will only go ahead if Sadiq Khan gets re elected. They probably won’t go ahead if someone else gets elected, There is little to no chance Susan Hall is getting elected , she still hasn't got a manifesto and it's just over two weeks to go , her team the whole campaign has been a shizshow so chances are we will (unless a wildcard gets in) have another 5 years of Khan so these routes are a most definitely a possibility .
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Post by TB123 on Apr 21, 2024 20:19:06 GMT
I don’t understand the point of the route from Thamesmead to North Greenwich at all, especially considering the 180 and 472 don’t take that long from Woolwich to North Greenwich with the bus priority having been improved over almost the entirety of that section. Also I wonder how that fits in to the Abbey Wood to Woolwich via Thamesmead BRT which already has gotten some central government funding. I suspect this Superloop route is the 472 BRT
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Post by Eastlondoner62 on Apr 21, 2024 20:43:20 GMT
Also I wonder how that fits in to the Abbey Wood to Woolwich via Thamesmead BRT which already has gotten some central government funding. I suspect this Superloop route is the 472 BRT Would be a slight shame if it was. A South-East London Transit would have given scope for expansion and potentially increase ridership. The ELT for example while people from the outside may say it's just standard bus routes has undoubtedly been a huge success story starting with just a PVR of 12 or so to now rising to a PVR of around 50 and people being very happy to rely on it as buses come every few minutes along their 'core'. It's a very good example of how bus priority should be done without negatively impacting cars at the same time, such as the overtake slips which only activate if a bus is detected and the use of bus only roads, but having alternate roads for cars where the cars are allowed to park along the roadside too. A potential South-East London Transit could have encompassed the 472 route, but potentially even something similar to the 301 going towards Bexleyheath.
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Post by buspete on Apr 21, 2024 20:50:24 GMT
But that doesnt matter much because Khan has got the win in the bag. He could probably put nothing on his manifesto and people would still vote just to keep Hall out But his problem is his controversial ULEZ and that could be an issue for him. It’s only controversial as it’s been politicise, as when Boris Johnson introduced it wasn’t. That reminds me, I better fill out my postal ballot.
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Post by matthieu1221 on Apr 21, 2024 21:00:52 GMT
I suspect this Superloop route is the 472 BRT Would be a slight shame if it was. A South-East London Transit would have given scope for expansion and potentially increase ridership. The ELT for example while people from the outside may say it's just standard bus routes has undoubtedly been a huge success story starting with just a PVR of 12 or so to now rising to a PVR of around 50 and people being very happy to rely on it as buses come every few minutes along their 'core'. It's a very good example of how bus priority should be done without negatively impacting cars at the same time, such as the overtake slips which only activate if a bus is detected and the use of bus only roads, but having alternate roads for cars where the cars are allowed to park along the roadside too. A potential South-East London Transit could have encompassed the 472 route, but potentially even something similar to the 301 going towards Bexleyheath. The BRT being funded might just end up being the infra and not the bus service itself. A bit like the Millennium Dome busway. There's hopefully scope for not only the BRT (presumably now Superloop) but other routes to use it.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 21, 2024 22:19:46 GMT
I suspect this Superloop route is the 472 BRT Would be a slight shame if it was. A South-East London Transit would have given scope for expansion and potentially increase ridership. The ELT for example while people from the outside may say it's just standard bus routes has undoubtedly been a huge success story starting with just a PVR of 12 or so to now rising to a PVR of around 50 and people being very happy to rely on it as buses come every few minutes along their 'core'. It's a very good example of how bus priority should be done without negatively impacting cars at the same time, such as the overtake slips which only activate if a bus is detected and the use of bus only roads, but having alternate roads for cars where the cars are allowed to park along the roadside too. A potential South-East London Transit could have encompassed the 472 route, but potentially even something similar to the 301 going towards Bexleyheath. I think I've said this before, the ELT is the model a bus service should be. Lots of effective priorities, good frequencies, 24/7 service. That needs to be universal. I'm sure a similar service could be done with the 472 corridor under a Superloop guise involving consolidated stops, rather than a more traditional express pattern, but to be a proper BRT service it needs either articulated or tri-axle (with rear stairs) open-board vehicles to make the most of the extra infrastructure and faster running speeds. I do hope they don't overengineer the "472 BRT", clearly some of the dual carriageway sections already used are free-flowing roads not in need of a bus lane installation.
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Post by twobellstogo on Apr 22, 2024 15:58:12 GMT
Would be a slight shame if it was. A South-East London Transit would have given scope for expansion and potentially increase ridership. The ELT for example while people from the outside may say it's just standard bus routes has undoubtedly been a huge success story starting with just a PVR of 12 or so to now rising to a PVR of around 50 and people being very happy to rely on it as buses come every few minutes along their 'core'. It's a very good example of how bus priority should be done without negatively impacting cars at the same time, such as the overtake slips which only activate if a bus is detected and the use of bus only roads, but having alternate roads for cars where the cars are allowed to park along the roadside too. A potential South-East London Transit could have encompassed the 472 route, but potentially even something similar to the 301 going towards Bexleyheath. I think I've said this before, the ELT is the model a bus service should be. Lots of effective priorities, good frequencies, 24/7 service. That needs to be universal. I'm sure a similar service could be done with the 472 corridor under a Superloop guise involving consolidated stops, rather than a more traditional express pattern, but to be a proper BRT service it needs either articulated or tri-axle (with rear stairs) open-board vehicles to make the most of the extra infrastructure and faster running speeds. I do hope they don't overengineer the "472 BRT", clearly some of the dual carriageway sections already used are free-flowing roads not in need of a bus lane installation. I don’t know what you think, TB123 , and you seem a knowledgeable chap, but I get the distinct feeling that with the what I will call the SL472 introduction will come the complete demise of the current 472 : maybe with the sop of more 180s in partial compensation.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 22, 2024 16:32:29 GMT
I think I've said this before, the ELT is the model a bus service should be. Lots of effective priorities, good frequencies, 24/7 service. That needs to be universal. I'm sure a similar service could be done with the 472 corridor under a Superloop guise involving consolidated stops, rather than a more traditional express pattern, but to be a proper BRT service it needs either articulated or tri-axle (with rear stairs) open-board vehicles to make the most of the extra infrastructure and faster running speeds. I do hope they don't overengineer the "472 BRT", clearly some of the dual carriageway sections already used are free-flowing roads not in need of a bus lane installation. I don’t know what you think, TB123 , and you seem a knowledgeable chap, but I get the distinct feeling that with the what I will call the SL472 introduction will come the complete demise of the current 472 : maybe with the sop of more 180s in partial compensation. Yep, I suspect the 472 will be completely withdrawn and replaced with the SL472/BRT route along there. And although branded Superloop, I reckon it'll be more akin to ELT with consolidated stops, rather than more limited stop per SE. Personally I think a Superloop-esque/BRT style 472 using open-board tri-axle doubles with rear stairs or artics would be excellent. They've £23m of capital funding to build a BRT corridor between Woolwich and Abbey Wood via Thamesmead, but it isn't expected to complete until 2026 - which for a BRT project is actually quite speedy.
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Post by TB123 on Apr 22, 2024 16:59:49 GMT
So I thought I'd put my twopenneth in regarding these proposed new routes and some predictions:
Harrow to Barnet, via Edgware - I think there's long been a need for a faster TfL route across Barnet borough - I've suggested an 'X307' route here many times before - the 384 went some way to doing this, although remains constrained by the Quinta Drive diversion and use of smaller single decks. It'll be interesting to see the frequency of this route as a standard 5bph frequency will be a significant increase over the 107 and 384 which are both low-frequency routes. I suspect this will run via Canons Park and then straight up the A1 with a little drop in at Barnet Hospital, terminating at New Barnet - and hopefully using double decks (probably a Metroline route) - personally I'd run this through to Enfield rather than Barnet.
Barnet to Stratford, via Enfield and Chingford - this looks a good route with the provision of a faster bus between Stratford, Walthamstow and Chingford - really the Hall Farm curve should reopen allowing for direct passenger trains, but this could be a great alternative in the meantime. Personally, I'd terminate it at Enfield rather than Barnet with the Barnet to Harrow route covering Enfield instead. Again, it'll be interesting to see the frequency of this route as a standard 5bph frequency will be again be quite an increase over the existing 307/313 routes. I suspect this will be an Arriva route.
Leytonstone to South Havering, via Gants Hill and Romford - there appears to be a degree of duplication with this route and the 66 however it does offer the opportunity to boost journey times further by perhaps skipping out Snaresbrook and offer some extra capacity on a corridor that has seen consistent growth (build it and they will come...) - I suspect it'll run south from Romford to Hornchurch and Rainham to fulfill some stakeholder demands for more bus links North-South in Havering borough. Again, I think this will be an Arriva route.
North Greenwich to Thamesmead, via Woolwich - this looks to be more of a BRT route with a consolidated stop pattern than limited stop, this looks a good idea and really the original Greenwich Waterfront Transit should never have been cancelled. This should really use open-board vehicles, be that tri-axle doubles or artics. I suspect this will be a 'beefed up' 472 with that route being withdrawn entirely.
‘Bakerloop line’: Elephant and Castle to Lewisham, via Old Kent Road and New Cross - as I've said previously this is a sensible move to speed up journeys along the line of the Bakerloo extension until it can be built and offer a faster direct bus from Lewisham to Elephant. Streatham to Eltham, via Tulse Hill and Lee - this looks a most interesting one. I suspect it will be a single deck route and the routing will be interesting to see, I presume it will run right along the South Circ via Catford. Richmond to Wimbledon, via Roehampton - I'm interested to see the finer details of this one. I presume it will go straight up past Wimbledon common and then skip out Putney Heath to serve Roehampton and South Circ. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if this involved a tweak of the 493. Ealing Broadway to Kingston, via Great West Road and Richmond - I've long suggested an X65 route. It's a yes from me, although it will be interesting to see what they do with the standard 65, if anything at all. Hounslow to Hammersmith, via Great West Road - I presume this will skip out Chiswick High Road to cater for longer journeys and then run to the town centre. Quite an interesting one given the H91 already does similar to this. Hendon to Ealing Broadway, via Brent Cross and Hanger Lane - again, another one I've long since suggested and indeed predicted - an 'X112' is much needed given how busy the normal 112s are. I hope this runs via Ealing Common so it can use double decks. A great idea nonetheless.
Think that's it...
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Post by rift on Apr 22, 2024 21:03:56 GMT
I think I've said this before, the ELT is the model a bus service should be. Lots of effective priorities, good frequencies, 24/7 service. That needs to be universal. I'm sure a similar service could be done with the 472 corridor under a Superloop guise involving consolidated stops, rather than a more traditional express pattern, but to be a proper BRT service it needs either articulated or tri-axle (with rear stairs) open-board vehicles to make the most of the extra infrastructure and faster running speeds. I do hope they don't overengineer the "472 BRT", clearly some of the dual carriageway sections already used are free-flowing roads not in need of a bus lane installation. I don’t know what you think, TB123 , and you seem a knowledgeable chap, but I get the distinct feeling that with the what I will call the SL472 introduction will come the complete demise of the current 472 : maybe with the sop of more 180s in partial compensation. Knowing TFL, I wouldn’t be that surprised if they used this as an excuse completely get rid of the existing 472 either, despite it and the 180 serving two completely different sides of Thamesmead. The way I would prefer this to be done is for the current route remain as it is from North Greenwich to Woolwich, then utilise the busway to Abbey Wood, with the 177, 244 and 301 all increased to compensate for stops losing the 472.
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