ZiyQ
Conductor
I always end up saying too much - beware of the waffle posts taking up an entire thread’s page…
Posts: 118
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Post by ZiyQ on May 20, 2024 22:02:34 GMT
Could the 34’s & 307’s night services that they used to have be worth reintroducing? Alternatively having the 313 becoming a night service instead of the 307 could also be an option. I have to agree with enviroPB as well here - whilst the routes would be useful as 24-hour services, they would likely not be very viable and would struggle to get passengers at any time of day. Whilst the 307 links quite a few town centres, its location on the edges of London really don't help its passenger numbers - I could see a Barnet - Chingford route gaining some passengers in the form of an N307, but not many, even if it does fill in some larger gaps in the night bus network. This is often the case for most outskirts of London, such as Enfield, and until the creation of the N518, Ruislip, and other places such as Dagenham. This is an issue that expansion of the night bus network repeatedly faces - if there isn't a good business case for a route, then it probably won't materialise. This is especially true for much of the population of the outskirts of London, most of whom wish to travel to/from the city, with most people using taxis or other more convenient modes of transport instead, especially late at night. The routing of the 34 is also quite unattractive to night bus users, with most of it travelling along the A406 However, some night routes, such as the N29, N279 and N15 just to name a few, have proven quite popular, but mainly as they act as radial routes, linking people to the busy nightlife of the City. |
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Post by bk10mfe on May 20, 2024 22:04:22 GMT
Could the 34’s & 307’s night services that they used to have be worth reintroducing? Alternatively having the 313 becoming a night service instead of the 307 could also be an option. Probably yes to the 34, no to the 307. The former generated trips outside of using Night Tube, the 307 struggled to drum patronage due to the residential areas it served. The N20 also has been extended to Barnet Hospital, so there really isn't any need for a second night bus at night. To date, TfL have never had a night route cross the Greater London boundary. The only exception to this is the N279 which barely branches out of the M25, but many suspect it's down to TfL owning Waltham Cross bus station. I'd sooner give other cross boundary routes like the 96 and 142 24 hour operation over the 313. That being said, a 313N may do well west of Ponders End. Yeah I agree with you I’m surprised that Enfield doesn’t have more night services available outside of the N29. Of all the routes in Enfield that could convert to a night service the 307 & 313 make the most logical sense (though as you say it’s unlikely that TfL are willing to make another night service go out of the London border). Given that the N29 gets quite good loadings, I would imagine a 313(N) would work well west of Ponders End if it were to be introduced to create some new links at night. |
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Post by VMH2537 on May 20, 2024 22:32:21 GMT
Probably yes to the 34, no to the 307. The former generated trips outside of using Night Tube, the 307 struggled to drum patronage due to the residential areas it served. The N20 also has been extended to Barnet Hospital, so there really isn't any need for a second night bus at night. To date, TfL have never had a night route cross the Greater London boundary. The only exception to this is the N279 which barely branches out of the M25, but many suspect it's down to TfL owning Waltham Cross bus station. I'd sooner give other cross boundary routes like the 96 and 142 24 hour operation over the 313. That being said, a 313N may do well west of Ponders End. Yeah I agree with you I’m surprised that Enfield doesn’t have more night services available outside of the N29. Of all the routes in Enfield that could convert to a night service the 307 & 313 make the most logical sense (though as you say it’s unlikely that TfL are willing to make another night service go out of the London border). Given that the N29 gets quite good loadings, I would imagine a 313(N) would work well west of Ponders End if it were to be introduced to create some new links at night. I think we also need to mention Enfield Town doesn't really have a night economy unlike certain areas like Walthamstow, Wood Green etc. After 20:00, it very much deserts into a ghost town with hardly strong traffic. I did a recent trip on the W9 returning from Chase Farm Hospital with the driver just pressing on the accelerator speed passing Enfield Town/Cecil Road with no one waiting (it was just me alone all the way to Highlands Village) It just shows if that played if a cross night service ever came to fruition. The only exemption to this was the 307 pre 2020 running only specific catering feeding to the night tube at Oakwood, even that service didn't carry much pax as to possibly why TfL hasn't reinstated it's night service unlike the 123 and the 158. Though I can take something from your idea regarding the 313. It does serve an area where it's considerably a distance from current night service. Talking of the area of Chase Farm Hospital/Gordon Hill. For reasons mentioned above, I don't think it's going to be a strong case using a orbital route for a night service, rather it has to likely be a radical route. An extension of the N29 to Chase Farm Hospital following the line of routing of the W8 can in my opinion be a good start in plugging in this hole. At least extending 3bph or 2bph before coordinating with it's 10 minute service from Enfield Town can be achievable if costs are a hesitation. |
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Post by enviroPB on May 21, 2024 0:02:16 GMT
Probably yes to the 34, no to the 307. The former generated trips outside of using Night Tube, the 307 struggled to drum patronage due to the residential areas it served. The N20 also has been extended to Barnet Hospital, so there really isn't any need for a second night bus at night. To date, TfL have never had a night route cross the Greater London boundary. The only exception to this is the N279 which barely branches out of the M25, but many suspect it's down to TfL owning Waltham Cross bus station. I'd sooner give other cross boundary routes like the 96 and 142 24 hour operation over the 313. That being said, a 313N may do well west of Ponders End. Yeah I agree with you I’m surprised that Enfield doesn’t have more night services available outside of the N29. Of all the routes in Enfield that could convert to a night service the 307 & 313 make the most logical sense (though as you say it’s unlikely that TfL are willing to make another night service go out of the London border). Given that the N29 gets quite good loadings, I would imagine a 313(N) would work well west of Ponders End if it were to be introduced to create some new links at night. I don't think it's worth birthing a new night route, but maybe an extension for the N271 via High Barnet and over the 307 to Ponders End? It will capture/entice east-west travel through Enfield whilst also linking Ponders End direct with Enfield Town. Instead of sending the N271 to Brimsdown, perhaps a hook right on Ponders End High Street to Edmonton Green to terminate there. That way those two big town centres are connected, generating custom and a better business case than the 307/313 on its own. The 34 is then left to cover the Oakleigh Road North area at night, and will generate its own demand through its connections and giving the industrial area along the A406 an all night service for shift workers to utilise. EDIT: Going off current timetables, an extension to Edmonton Green would add around 32 mins to the N271. That would add two buses to the schedule vs. a three PVR for a 307 at night. |
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Post by bk10mfe on May 21, 2024 8:20:25 GMT
Yeah I agree with you I’m surprised that Enfield doesn’t have more night services available outside of the N29. Of all the routes in Enfield that could convert to a night service the 307 & 313 make the most logical sense (though as you say it’s unlikely that TfL are willing to make another night service go out of the London border). Given that the N29 gets quite good loadings, I would imagine a 313(N) would work well west of Ponders End if it were to be introduced to create some new links at night. I think we also need to mention Enfield Town doesn't really have a night economy unlike certain areas like Walthamstow, Wood Green etc. After 20:00, it very much deserts into a ghost town with hardly strong traffic. I did a recent trip on the W9 returning from Chase Farm Hospital with the driver just pressing on the accelerator speed passing Enfield Town/Cecil Road with no one waiting (it was just me alone all the way to Highlands Village) It just shows if that played if a cross night service ever came to fruition. The only exemption to this was the 307 pre 2020 running only specific catering feeding to the night tube at Oakwood, even that service didn't carry much pax as to possibly why TfL hasn't reinstated it's night service unlike the 123 and the 158. Though I can take something from your idea regarding the 313. It does serve an area where it's considerably a distance from current night service. Talking of the area of Chase Farm Hospital/Gordon Hill. For reasons mentioned above, I don't think it's going to be a strong case using a orbital route for a night service, rather it has to likely be a radical route. An extension of the N29 to Chase Farm Hospital following the line of routing of the W8 can in my opinion be a good start in plugging in this hole. At least extending 3bph or 2bph before coordinating with it's 10 minute service from Enfield Town can be achievable if costs are a hesitation. Regarding the 123, I do feel like its night route will become somewhat devalued once the whole route gets cut back to Turnpike Lane. This does make me think that the 230 might have had its own merits to being a night service, as it runs through the centre of Walthamstow & will continue to run to Wood Green unlike the 123. With the W8, I suggested previously that the route should swap termini with the 192. Could it then be worth putting a night service on the W8 for the night tube at Tottenham Hale & the developments at Meridian Water? This also fills in the gap you mentioned about Chase Farm/Gordon Hill lacking a night service. |
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Post by VMH2537 on May 21, 2024 10:47:54 GMT
I think we also need to mention Enfield Town doesn't really have a night economy unlike certain areas like Walthamstow, Wood Green etc. After 20:00, it very much deserts into a ghost town with hardly strong traffic. I did a recent trip on the W9 returning from Chase Farm Hospital with the driver just pressing on the accelerator speed passing Enfield Town/Cecil Road with no one waiting (it was just me alone all the way to Highlands Village) It just shows if that played if a cross night service ever came to fruition. The only exemption to this was the 307 pre 2020 running only specific catering feeding to the night tube at Oakwood, even that service didn't carry much pax as to possibly why TfL hasn't reinstated it's night service unlike the 123 and the 158. Though I can take something from your idea regarding the 313. It does serve an area where it's considerably a distance from current night service. Talking of the area of Chase Farm Hospital/Gordon Hill. For reasons mentioned above, I don't think it's going to be a strong case using a orbital route for a night service, rather it has to likely be a radical route. An extension of the N29 to Chase Farm Hospital following the line of routing of the W8 can in my opinion be a good start in plugging in this hole. At least extending 3bph or 2bph before coordinating with it's 10 minute service from Enfield Town can be achievable if costs are a hesitation. Regarding the 123, I do feel like its night route will become somewhat devalued once the whole route gets cut back to Turnpike Lane. This does make me think that the 230 might have had its own merits to being a night service, as it runs through the centre of Walthamstow & will continue to run to Wood Green unlike the 123. With the W8, I suggested previously that the route should swap termini with the 192. Could it then be worth putting a night service on the W8 for the night tube at Tottenham Hale & the developments at Meridian Water? This also fills in the gap you mentioned about Chase Farm/Gordon Hill lacking a night service. Then as I said, not using a trunk route from Central London is unlikely to attract a large custom. There may be some merits in connecting the night tube at Tottenham Hale. Though the demand is only up to Edmonton Green, or even Montague Road if I'm pushing it. So as a result, only a small pax may end up using the route as whole. Once more even areas like Edmonton Green turns to ghost town late at night making it very unlikely to be a viable candidate for a night service. It then goes back as to why if any hypothetical scenario arises, extending the N29 or at least a part of the service will likely attract a market from linking directly to Central London and other hotspots. |
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Post by greenboy on May 21, 2024 11:23:32 GMT
I think we also need to mention Enfield Town doesn't really have a night economy unlike certain areas like Walthamstow, Wood Green etc. After 20:00, it very much deserts into a ghost town with hardly strong traffic. I did a recent trip on the W9 returning from Chase Farm Hospital with the driver just pressing on the accelerator speed passing Enfield Town/Cecil Road with no one waiting (it was just me alone all the way to Highlands Village) It just shows if that played if a cross night service ever came to fruition. The only exemption to this was the 307 pre 2020 running only specific catering feeding to the night tube at Oakwood, even that service didn't carry much pax as to possibly why TfL hasn't reinstated it's night service unlike the 123 and the 158. Though I can take something from your idea regarding the 313. It does serve an area where it's considerably a distance from current night service. Talking of the area of Chase Farm Hospital/Gordon Hill. For reasons mentioned above, I don't think it's going to be a strong case using a orbital route for a night service, rather it has to likely be a radical route. An extension of the N29 to Chase Farm Hospital following the line of routing of the W8 can in my opinion be a good start in plugging in this hole. At least extending 3bph or 2bph before coordinating with it's 10 minute service from Enfield Town can be achievable if costs are a hesitation. Regarding the 123, I do feel like its night route will become somewhat devalued once the whole route gets cut back to Turnpike Lane. This does make me think that the 230 might have had its own merits to being a night service, as it runs through the centre of Walthamstow & will continue to run to Wood Green unlike the 123. With the W8, I suggested previously that the route should swap termini with the 192. Could it then be worth putting a night service on the W8 for the night tube at Tottenham Hale & the developments at Meridian Water? This also fills in the gap you mentioned about Chase Farm/Gordon Hill lacking a night service. Presumably an N123 could still go to Wood Green? |
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Post by bk10mfe on May 21, 2024 11:30:32 GMT
Regarding the 123, I do feel like its night route will become somewhat devalued once the whole route gets cut back to Turnpike Lane. This does make me think that the 230 might have had its own merits to being a night service, as it runs through the centre of Walthamstow & will continue to run to Wood Green unlike the 123. With the W8, I suggested previously that the route should swap termini with the 192. Could it then be worth putting a night service on the W8 for the night tube at Tottenham Hale & the developments at Meridian Water? This also fills in the gap you mentioned about Chase Farm/Gordon Hill lacking a night service. Presumably an N123 could still go to Wood Green? Yeah it definitely could, idk why tfl have to cut back the night service as well, since the N91 is already being rerouted off Wood Green High Road anyway. |
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Post by mondraker275 on May 21, 2024 16:08:12 GMT
Yeah I agree with you I’m surprised that Enfield doesn’t have more night services available outside of the N29. Of all the routes in Enfield that could convert to a night service the 307 & 313 make the most logical sense (though as you say it’s unlikely that TfL are willing to make another night service go out of the London border). Given that the N29 gets quite good loadings, I would imagine a 313(N) would work well west of Ponders End if it were to be introduced to create some new links at night. I think we also need to mention Enfield Town doesn't really have a night economy unlike certain areas like Walthamstow, Wood Green etc. After 20:00, it very much deserts into a ghost town with hardly strong traffic. I did a recent trip on the W9 returning from Chase Farm Hospital with the driver just pressing on the accelerator speed passing Enfield Town/Cecil Road with no one waiting (it was just me alone all the way to Highlands Village) It just shows if that played if a cross night service ever came to fruition. The only exemption to this was the 307 pre 2020 running only specific catering feeding to the night tube at Oakwood, even that service didn't carry much pax as to possibly why TfL hasn't reinstated it's night service unlike the 123 and the 158. Though I can take something from your idea regarding the 313. It does serve an area where it's considerably a distance from current night service. Talking of the area of Chase Farm Hospital/Gordon Hill. For reasons mentioned above, I don't think it's going to be a strong case using a orbital route for a night service, rather it has to likely be a radical route. An extension of the N29 to Chase Farm Hospital following the line of routing of the W8 can in my opinion be a good start in plugging in this hole. At least extending 3bph or 2bph before coordinating with it's 10 minute service from Enfield Town can be achievable if costs are a hesitation. I dont think the correlation between a 20 min day service and having a successful night service is positive. There may not be a sample size to even come up with that conclusion. |
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Post by I-Azusio-I on May 21, 2024 16:16:22 GMT
N381 withdrawn.
345N (renumbered N345) extended to Canada Water via the current N381 route between Peckham and Canada Water which covers the Peckham Park Road and South Bermondsey (not served by N1) link.
This would possibly require at least one extra bus?
47N (renumbered N47?) re-routed via Rotherhithe Peninsula. It would no longer serve the Neptune Street / St Olaves Estate and Surrey Quays Road stops which are already covered by 188N and N199.
The Canada Water-Rotherhithe-London Bridge link would be maintained, as well as opening up new links to Shoreditch or other places like Lewisham.
N343 re-routed via Westminster Bridge and County Hall which covers the St Thomas' Hospital link.
It wouldn't necessarily have to terminate at Whitehall unless there isn't any space where the N550 & N551 stand.
N21 would become the alternative for N343 between Trafalgar Square and London Bridge since the latter would no longer run via Aldwych (you can also get N89 or N171 here for New Cross Gate).
453N and N53 both provide faster journeys between Old Kent Road/Peckham Park Road and Whitehall.
Reasons:
1. N381 is pretty much covered by other night routes or has them running close its areas and which do the job quicker:
Whitehall/Trafalgar Square - London Bridge (N21, N343)
Whitehall/Trafalgar Square - Peckham (12, N89, N136, N343)
Whitehall - Old Kent Road (453, N53)
Waterloo Bridge - Peckham, Southwark Park Road or Surrey Quays (188, N1, N171, N343)
Peckham - Blackfriars Road (N63, N89)
London Bridge - Rotherhithe and Surrey Quays (47, N199)
2. It's circuitous just like its day route. Goes round and round only to terminate in Peckham of all places.
3. The proposed N345 would open up new links between Canada Water (for the Jubilee Line from the east), Brixton, Clapham and Battersea.
This could also indirectly relieve pressure on 35N.
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Post by yunus on May 23, 2024 16:32:49 GMT
Right for now the N86 is my favourite night route. What I love about the route is that it completely avoids Central London but still is very lively.
My favourite used to be the N55 & N47 back in the good old days.
Would the N86 not benefit from an extension to Brentwood via the 498 along the A12?
I would also extend the N55 along route 20 to Loughton.
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18ARustee
Conductor
Security Supervisor
Posts: 80 
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Post by 18ARustee on May 23, 2024 17:18:31 GMT
Regarding the recent consultation, the N518 is a good idea. It would make up for especially the Northolt branch of the Central line, which doesn't have the weekend 24 hour option.
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Post by Dad91 on May 24, 2024 3:12:32 GMT
Right for now the N86 is my favourite night route. What I love about the route is that it completely avoids Central London but still is very lively. My favourite used to be the N55 & N47 back in the good old days. Would the N86 not benefit from an extension to Brentwood via the 498 along the A12? I would also extend the N55 along route 20 to Loughton. I agree N86 nice night routes get busy Ilford Stratford Romford |
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Post by COBO on Jun 12, 2024 19:17:58 GMT
N114: new night route between Mill Hill Broadway and Heathrow Central via route 114 to Ruislip, U1 to West Drayton and U3 to Heathrow. To provide a night link between Uxbridge and Ruislip.
N278: new number for the N518.
N518: should be renumbered N278 and extended from Ruislip to Heathrow Central via route 278 so theirs a 24 hour link between Ruislip and Hayes / Heathrow.
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Post by greg on Jun 12, 2024 19:19:21 GMT
N114: new night route between Mill Hill Broadway and Heathrow Central via route 114 to Ruislip, U1 to West Drayton and U3 to Heathrow. To provide a night link between Uxbridge and Ruislip. N278: new number for the N518. N518: should be renumbered N278 and extended from Ruislip to Heathrow Central via route 278 so theirs a 24 hour link between Ruislip and Hayes / Heathrow. Is a night link from Rusilip to Heathrow particulary needed? |
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