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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 9:34:40 GMT
I think actually shortening the 57 is better , either to St Leonards Church or the Streatham Station hub. Not sure whether there is room though ?
I would consider extending the 131 from Tooting via it's former Sunday only extension to Clapham High Street or Stockwell.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 17, 2013 9:47:00 GMT
I think actually shortening the 57 is better , either to St Leonards Church or the Streatham Station hub. Not sure whether there is room though ? I would consider extending the 131 from Tooting via it's former Sunday only extension to Clapham High Street or Stockwell. And that would leave any passengers beyond Tooting needing to change bus to reach Becmead Avenue or Streatham Hill. |
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Post by paulsw2 on Jun 22, 2013 14:03:47 GMT
I think that the way forward is to think back to when a bus actually went to where people wanted/needed to go
examples of this was the 68 South Croydon - Chalk Farm
109 Purley - Embankment - Purley
155 Wimbledon - Embankment - Wimbledon
159 Thornton Heath - West Hampstead
This would stop some of the needless duplication i.e. 68 168 468.
All it needs is a common sense way of scheduling and timetabling
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Post by snoggle on Jun 22, 2013 15:47:56 GMT
I think that the way forward is to think back to when a bus actually went to where people wanted/needed to go examples of this was the 68 South Croydon - Chalk Farm 109 Purley - Embankment - Purley 155 Wimbledon - Embankment - Wimbledon 159 Thornton Heath - West Hampstead This would stop some of the needless duplication i.e. 68 168 468. All it needs is a common sense way of scheduling and timetabling If we are going to do history do we also need to recall that the services you quote above did not typically provide through journeys from end to end. Routes ran in sections, sometimes several, and only at the very quietest of times did you really have a through service. I may be wrong but you only got 68s from Croydon to Chalk Farm on Sundays when traffic conditions and loadings were way different to how things are today. If you were to rationalise the 68 would you also scrap the bits of the 168 beyond Chalk Farm and Elephant & Castle to Old Kent Road? It's my understanding that these other bits of route are pretty well used so do you keep them, scrap them or create some other route to cover them? The fundamentals that *might* make longer routes more viable today are I-Bus and more bus priority. However the priority needs enforcement and all too often it is not enforced meaning buses do not get the full benefit of bus lanes. The notion that the buses don't go where people want to go is a bit fanciful. If that was the case people would be in cars, in taxis and buses would be empty and disregarded. That's not my experience of the bus network. Sure it can be better and we need new links and services in a lot of places but politically and therefore financially that is off the table. Hacking about with the 68 and 468 might generate some savings but what else gives to make that work? |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 22, 2013 21:31:04 GMT
I think that the way forward is to think back to when a bus actually went to where people wanted/needed to go examples of this was the 68 South Croydon - Chalk Farm 109 Purley - Embankment - Purley 155 Wimbledon - Embankment - Wimbledon 159 Thornton Heath - West Hampstead This would stop some of the needless duplication i.e. 68 168 468. All it needs is a common sense way of scheduling and timetabling You seem to live in the local area like myself so you should also know that the present day 109 is long enough end to end. Now take the 109 routing you mentioned - the traffic hotspots currently are London Road, St. Leonard's Church, Streatham High Road (by the Odeon) & Brixton but you would be adding in Purley & Westminster as well. People seem to forget that traffic has substantially increased since the 80's |
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Post by Hassaan on Jun 22, 2013 22:12:42 GMT
I think that the way forward is to think back to when a bus actually went to where people wanted/needed to go examples of this was the 68 South Croydon - Chalk Farm 109 Purley - Embankment - Purley 155 Wimbledon - Embankment - Wimbledon 159 Thornton Heath - West Hampstead This would stop some of the needless duplication i.e. 68 168 468. All it needs is a common sense way of scheduling and timetabling You seem to live in the local area like myself so you should also know that the present day 109 is long enough end to end. Now take the 109 routing you mentioned - the traffic hotspots currently are London Road, St. Leonard's Church, Streatham High Road (by the Odeon) & Brixton but you would be adding in Purley & Westminster as well. People seem to forget that traffic has substantially increased since the 80's Agreed, having overlapping sections of separate routes tends to provide more backup and better service frequencies to match the busier sections of route. An example: Route 207 runs every 4-5 minutes and the 427 is every 8-10 minutes. The Acton-White City section of the 207 is usually busier than the Hayes-Uxbridge section of the 427, so the differing frequencies take this into account (likewise the N207 with every other bus curtailed to Hayes). This means more buses on the busy Hayes-Acton common section which so more chances of people managing to get on a bus and more room on buses reaching the busy town centres of Southall, Ealing and Acton on the common section. And with separate routes you lose the risk of some controllers curtailing a lot of buses away from the ends during busy periods in order to maintain headway on the middle section, therefore you tend to get better service if you are towards the end of the route. |
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Post by Connor on Jun 23, 2013 14:27:42 GMT
Reroute the C11 in the Parliment Hill, Belsize Park and Gospel Oak areas and then double deck it with old VPL/TPL/TP from routes 6/43/98/390, which should get new buses soon. This route is overcrowded the majority of the time.
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Post by M1104 on Jun 25, 2013 0:26:27 GMT
Swap the 219 and 355 routing south of Tooting Broadway, hence direct bus links between Brixton/Balham and Wimbledon (355) and Clapham Junction to Mitcham with the 219 (reroute further at Figgs Marsh via Eastfields to Pollards Hill).
Convert both routes to LFDDs and move the WS class to the 201.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 21:23:08 GMT
Surely the best "link to Central London" is a train from East Croydon to Victoria? Or am I missing something? Or a 468 and a short hop on another bus at the the Elephant if you're desperate to use a bus. Exactly, people need to understand London road system, London roads were not built for these times, how can a route like 109, which runs on condensed roads such as London Road and Streatham High road be extended. Trains are for long distances into and out of Central London, not buses. |
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Post by vjaska on Jun 25, 2013 21:32:19 GMT
Swap the 219 and 355 routing south of Tooting Broadway, hence direct bus links between Brixton/Balham and Wimbledon (355) and Clapham Junction to Mitcham with the 219 (reroute further at Figgs Marsh via Eastfields to Pollards Hill). Convert both routes to LFDDs and move the WS class to the 201. Interesting proposals, certainly agree with decking both routes that's for sure. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 21:43:32 GMT
Patronage on the 91 is very large all day round on the Charing X to Holborn/Euston. It is largely quicker than the tube (where it involves changing lines). Had a thought : maybe extend the 87 from Aldwych to Russell Square, replacing the 188 over that section? Which would make the whole set of changes... * Extend RV1 to Trafalgar Square. Put 91 in Aldwych/Covent Garden terminal. * Replace 91 link by extending 87 from Aldwych to Russell Square, cutting the 188 back to Aldwych. From the A23/A205 junction at the bottom of Brixton Hill to the junction of Stockwell Road and Stockwell Park Walk for the bus stand is one and a half miles, so it would still be adding a mile to the journey even after accounting for the loss of the section to Atkins Road. And the congestion between Stockwell Park Walk and Lambeth Town Hall is every bit as bad as it is around St Leonard's, so if extensions to the latter would make a route too unreliable to consider then the same has to apply to Brixton. The Brixton Hill corridor is also very well served, if the 57 was to be extended at the north it would be far more useful using it create new links or bolstering less well served ones. Where is the demand or value for a 57 extension to Brixton? It is not even the quickest way to get to Kingston from Brixton by bus. The 37 to Putney Hill then the 85 to Kingston takes 64 minutes combined (using TfL's average figures), while just Telford Avenue alone the 57 take 66 minutes. A direct link to Wimbledon would be useful, but then so would one to Lewisham from Streatham but extending the P4 down Brixton Hill would be just as bad. Where specific new links are needed reducing the reliability of existing routes should not be used as an lazy excuse for not creating new routes. As for Atkins Road, it is quite obvious the main reason for it being the terminus is because it is where the nearest stand is. The same reason where non-Arriva buses turn short in the area it is at the Brixton Hill or Streatham Hill Christchurch Road stops, so they can turn off and use it. And at least outside of the peaks it is a reasonably quiet section with having three lanes on Streatham Place so the extra run to it does not impact reliability. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 21:45:16 GMT
The problem with having any of the Croydon routes terminating at Streatham Station/ Village/ Hub is that they won't be of much a help in dealing with overcrowding as they wouldn't serve the busy stops, Becmead Avenue and St Leonards Church. I don't know how often you travel on the 60 but when I use it (from Streatham Station southbound), it carries very few people before getting busier south. Hence why I think any of the routes should be extended to St Leonards Church at the very least. As for which route should be extended, I still the 403 & 412 would be better as both are short routes which don't normally take more than 30 minutes from end to end and have quite low passenger usage compared to the 64. Why add an extra mile to the 57? It's already a long route, it will simply duplicate the 333 from Tooting Broadway to Brixton and I don't really see the point to that. Better to extend the 137 down to Streatham Station I think. The overcrowding happens between Streatham Station & Croydon because the 109 runs by itself between Thornton Heath Pond & Norbury and is also quicker than the 250. The 109 is fine between Streatham & Brixton because of the many routes that serve Brixton Hill, Streatham Hill & the bulk of Streatham High Road. The 60 is different as it travels through Streatham Vale and whilst it gets busy, it's nothing like the 109. Also, any route that terminates at St. Leonard's Church gets stuck in the traffic on Tooting Bec Gardens so there's a chance for reliability to decrease so in that sense, it's better for it to terminate at the hub. The 403 & 412 may have low passenger usage but there's no contingency at the southern end if the routes goes balls up around Streatham & Norbury whereas the 64 has at least has the Tramlink & the T33 to help out as a backup for passengers at the southern end. It also has a much higher frequency than the 403 or 412. You wouldn't be adding a mile to the 57, it would only be half a mile as it takes roughly half a mile from Streatham Hill to Clapham Park and whilst yes it would be duplicating the 333 between Tooting Broadway & Brixton, the 36 & 436 duplicate each other between New Cross Gate & Paddington without issue plus the 333 runs to Elephant & the 57 to Kingston. Patronage on the 57 between Streatham Hill & Clapham Park is very small - one things for sure is the 57 would be well used along Brixton Hill and would connect Brixton with Colliers Wood, Wimbledon & Kingston. Ironically, your extension of the 137 to the hub is 1 mile! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 21:53:51 GMT
I disagree with what you are saying about route 57. I take the bus regularly and although it just serves two more stops after Streatham Hill/Christchurch road, people seem to forget it is serving a community in Clapham Park. Please don't undervalue the need of the 57 in the Clapham Park area, especially with the redevelopment with new flats, and shops being built, many people in fact use it till the last stop. Extending a route to Brixton where there are 8 other routes which run through Brixton plus the longevity of the 57 already, the congestion in Brixton Town Centre and the Brixton stand space is to full capacity. 57 is best left in the Clapham Park area. I mean why do you think they extended the 131 from Wimbledon. 57 could not simply cope.
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Post by vjaska on Jun 25, 2013 23:08:36 GMT
I disagree with what you are saying about route 57. I take the bus regularly and although it just serves two more stops after Streatham Hill/Christchurch road, people seem to forget it is serving a community in Clapham Park. Please don't undervalue the need of the 57 in the Clapham Park area, especially with the redevelopment with new flats, and shops being built, many people in fact use it till the last stop. Extending a route to Brixton where there are 8 other routes which run through Brixton plus the longevity of the 57 already, the congestion in Brixton Town Centre and the Brixton stand space is to full capacity. 57 is best left in the Clapham Park area. I mean why do you think they extended the 131 from Wimbledon. 57 could not simply cope. I've never seen a busy 57 along that stretch from the 90's to the present day and I see the route every week (I've also rode the route to & from Clapham Park hundreds of times). A single decker route like the 255 would best placed to serve that stretch as: a) The 137 & 417 serve the same stretch (abeit the 137 starts from the garage) and are the two busiest routes along there b) The 255 could still serve the long awaited extension to Balham & penetrate further into the southern part of Clapham Park & follows the 57 right up to St.Leonard's Church. As for stand space in Brixton, Stockwell Park Walk is one big road full of space for terminating buses and that's including the current terminating routes. Don't forget that the 196 terminated there at the same time as today's routes. |
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Post by Connor on Jun 26, 2013 0:24:08 GMT
Here are my ideas for changes in the Streatham area. Cut the 57 back to Streatham Hill Station. Extend the 137 to Streatham Station. Then swap the 60 and 319 terminus; 60 to Streatham Hill, Telford Avenue; 319 to Streatham Station. Withdraw the 255 and replace with an exetended route (64, 152, G1?). Introduce my route 301 from East Croydon to Wandsworth, Armoury Way. Swap the 219 and 355 routing south of Tooting Broadway, hence direct bus links between Brixton/Balham and Wimbledon (355) and Clapham Junction to Mitcham with the 219 (reroute further at Figgs Marsh via Eastfields to Pollards Hill). Convert both routes to LFDDs and move the WS class to the 201. I like both ideas, though extend the 219 further to Thornton Heath Pond at least. Really don't like Pollards Hill as a terminus for any route (except for the 463). |
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