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Post by snowman on Dec 15, 2013 18:01:34 GMT
I have a few routes in mind for this: Route 129: Don't see the point of this. People can just get the 188 from Greenwich to North Greenwich and that is much quicker than the 129. The 129 also doesn't get much passengers and runs as usual. Unless 129 gets an extension, to me it is a useless route. Route 323: That route barely takes anyone aswell. I have seen it a few times and there's only up to 4 and 5 people in the bus. I know it provides a link to Mile End but it just goes round and round carrying sometimes nobody. IMO, the route should be extended from Canning Town to maybe London City Airport. Route EL2 (between Thames View and Dagenham Dock): I've been on the route end to end and once the route has dropped people at Thames View Estate, the route barely anyone in it. The time I went on it which was last year, there was only 2 people on it which was me and a postman. I think EL2 should be withdrawn and EL1 should remain. The 145 should then be extended to Dagenham Dock if possible. Route U7: Another route that goes to every single country! It gets a fair amount of passengers but from Hayes Sainsbury's to Uxbridge is only about 10-15 minutes and the U7 just goes round and round the houses just so it can be deemed as a "service". I don't know what the purpose of that route is meant to be and it isn't even frequent! As Mentioned many of times the 129 is not useless and @mredd made me realise this. The route can actually be carrying heavy loadings even on Double deckers at North Greenwich at times. "At times" is very telling. Suggests it shouldn't have a regular service, but just when required (this would coincide with event times or peak flows etc) To be honest if routes like 281 can have a different timetable when Rugby is on, I can't see why 129 has a different timetable when events are on. |
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Post by DT 11 on Dec 15, 2013 18:08:26 GMT
As Mentioned many of times the 129 is not useless and @mredd made me realise this. The route can actually be carrying heavy loadings even on Double deckers at North Greenwich at times. The 323 serves a lot of Local Businesses and is quite a useful link. But if people are heading towards Greenwich from North Greenwich, I just don't see why they can't take 188 which is quicker than the 129. If people from North Greenwich want to go to Greenwich Peninsula, they can either take 108, 132, 161, 472 or 486 there. That's why I say that 129 is a pointless route because it runs to place where a frequent link could also be provided and is much quicker to get there. It also goes round places that are served with lots of routes and the 129 doesn't relieve overcrowding on any of those routes either. The 188 between Greenwich and North Greenwich isn't overcrowded that much so people who want to get to North Greenwich should use 188 rather than 129. The 129 is the only route which goes directly into East Greenwich & Greenwich Town Centre from North Greenwich. The whole reason it was introduced was to provide a Link between Woolwich Road & North Greenwich. It was meant to be extended to Peckham but is no longer happening. |
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Post by I-Azusio-I on Dec 15, 2013 18:18:05 GMT
But if people are heading towards Greenwich from North Greenwich, I just don't see why they can't take 188 which is quicker than the 129. If people from North Greenwich want to go to Greenwich Peninsula, they can either take 108, 132, 161, 472 or 486 there. That's why I say that 129 is a pointless route because it runs to place where a frequent link could also be provided and is much quicker to get there. It also goes round places that are served with lots of routes and the 129 doesn't relieve overcrowding on any of those routes either. The 188 between Greenwich and North Greenwich isn't overcrowded that much so people who want to get to North Greenwich should use 188 rather than 129. The 129 is the only route which goes directly into East Greenwich & Greenwich Town Centre from North Greenwich. The whole reason it was introduced was to provide a Link between Woolwich Road & North Greenwich. It was meant to be extended to Peckham but is no longer happening. Ah I see. But I guess some people along Woolwich Road don't like to use the 422 which also passes along Woolwich Road and goes to East Greenwich and North Greenwich which would be much better. 129 Link: Greenwich Town Centre - Served by 188 also a Frequent link East Greenwich Library/Woolwich Road: Served by 422 also a Frequent link Greenwich Peninsula: Served by 108, 132, 161, 472 and 486 which are all Frequent links So the 129 just overlaps all of those routes and no link for itself is provided. |
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Post by Connor on Dec 15, 2013 18:59:29 GMT
The 129 IS useless! Woolwich Road isn't exactly an area of significance and the only reason the 129 is used is because it's there and a lot less crowded than the 188. Would people miss the 129 if it was withdrawn? NO!
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Post by snoggle on Dec 15, 2013 19:16:02 GMT
I have a few routes in mind for this: Route 129: Don't see the point of this. People can just get the 188 from Greenwich to North Greenwich and that is much quicker than the 129. The 129 also doesn't get much passengers and runs as usual. Unless 129 gets an extension, to me it is a useless route. Route 323: That route barely takes anyone aswell. I have seen it a few times and there's only up to 4 and 5 people in the bus. I know it provides a link to Mile End but it just goes round and round carrying sometimes nobody. IMO, the route should be extended from Canning Town to maybe London City Airport. Route EL2 (between Thames View and Dagenham Dock): I've been on the route end to end and once the route has dropped people at Thames View Estate, the route barely anyone in it. The time I went on it which was last year, there was only 2 people on it which was me and a postman. I think EL2 should be withdrawn and EL1 should remain. The 145 should then be extended to Dagenham Dock if possible. Route U7: Another route that goes to every single country! It gets a fair amount of passengers but from Hayes Sainsbury's to Uxbridge is only about 10-15 minutes and the U7 just goes round and round the houses just so it can be deemed as a "service". I don't know what the purpose of that route is meant to be and it isn't even frequent! Well Dr Snoggle [  ] has been looking at the route usage statistics for your "useless" candidates. Surely the point with the 129 is that it links the Peninsula development / shops etc with Greenwich and provides some localised capacity up to the tube station? All the other routes run over much longer distances and are packed to gunwhales in the peaks. If I lived in the housing down from the tube and wanted to use a bus I'd be extremely cross to be unable to get on any buses in the peaks. The 129 provides some "flex" when set against the 132 or the 472. The 129 carries nearly 800,000 people a year - hardly useless for a short route. The 323 is there to serve housing and small industrial units near Canning Town. I agree it is not scintilatingly exciting as a route but it provides a simple quick link between two areas that would otherwise require people to change buses or take tubes and change trains. It carries 700,000 people a year - again a long way from useless. There was also a Tfl plan to run the 323 on from Mile End to a place called Portelet Road which is west of Mile End near Stepney. This could have given the route extra patronage and people an easy link to the tube. It was cancelled due to funding cuts! The EL2 carries more people than the EL1 does. Together they carry over 6m pa which is way up on the old 369 but I recognise some of the loading will be people previously using the 179 between Barking and Ilford. I've not used the Dagenham Dock link but we need to understand that it can be worthwhile running a bus service before an area is fully developed. I am sure the area will grow and develop in due course and the bus will be better used. I am sure I have also read that people do use the EL2 as a peak connector up to the C2C station for trains into London rather than slogging to Barking and facing the crush there. Just because part of a route may be relatively lightly used does not make it useless. The U7 is interesting. Having ploughed through some of the public submissions to the Transport Committee it is interesting that the U7 features. I think the people that use it do value it but want more buses as the existing ones are overloaded. They also want it extended a little further to serve an estate without a bus service. The main issue is to give a direct link to Hillingdon Hospital as the other routes in the area do not go there. Apparently residents have provided a petition and lobbied TfL and Assembly Members without success. The respondent cited money "wasted" on the NB4L and cycling as examples where people in outer boroughs are NOT having their needs met. The U7 has seen considerable patronage growth in recent years, had Sunday frequencies doubled and extra school jnys added and carries 500,000 people a year. Just because a bus "goes round the houses" does not mean it is useless. You need a mix of main road routes plus feeder and local routes to give people a reasonable level of service and access. The other interesting thing with your candidate routes is that they are not very old. They are still in their development stages and it's clear to me that you need to give services several years before they become established and well known. This is one of the flaws with deregulation as operators cannot take years to allow patronage to build. They need sure fire certainties in order to get money in the bank to pay for any new ventures. Life isn't like that unfortunately - rarely do you have thousands of people just wanting a new bus service. Only big shopping centres have the potential to generate that sort of instant patronage. Dr Snoggle's diagnosis is therefore that your candidates are in decent health, not at all useless and do not need to undergo bus euthanasia at the present time.  |
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Post by vjaska on Dec 15, 2013 20:12:23 GMT
The 129 IS useless! Woolwich Road isn't exactly an area of significance and the only reason the 129 is used is because it's there and a lot less crowded than the 188. Would people miss the 129 if it was withdrawn? NO! I'm afraid people would miss it as then they'd wait for the 188 and get left behind as a result. During rush hour on Wednesdays, I used to always get the 129 over the 188 for the simple reason that you'd be able to board the bus rather than risk not being able to board a 188. I could argue that the 415 is only used because it's there - well it's actually not even used that much despite being there and is actually useless (432 should really be extended over it to create new links that would be greatly used). The T32 is the only useless route I know though on my last journey, it actually carried a decent load. |
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Post by I-Azusio-I on Dec 15, 2013 20:24:09 GMT
The 129 IS useless! Woolwich Road isn't exactly an area of significance and the only reason the 129 is used is because it's there and a lot less crowded than the 188. Would people miss the 129 if it was withdrawn? NO! I agree, I have never warmed to the 129 because I think it is just pointless. I have only taken it twice ONLY because the 188 took long to start at North Greenwich, so I had to take 129 to Greenwich to get the 199. |
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Post by DT 11 on Dec 15, 2013 20:39:56 GMT
The 129 IS useless! Woolwich Road isn't exactly an area of significance and the only reason the 129 is used is because it's there and a lot less crowded than the 188. Would people miss the 129 if it was withdrawn? NO! No disrespect, but I think that is ignorance. snoggle has stated in a previous post "The 129 carries nearly 800,000 people a year", so clearly the route is not pointless... The Route carries more passengers a day than some of the most unused routes in London... you may think the 129 is not used, but the 129 is certainly especially in the peaks like every other route in North Greenwich. Some passengers actually prefer the 129 over the 188. I have been at in the Greenwich area at various times of the day and I can tell you now. I have seen 129s carrying a fair amount of passengers. I have even seen a Photo of a Travel London 8.9m Enviro 200 rammed with passengers on the 129. I have been at North Greenwich at 5pm & 10pm and seen 129s gaining a fair amount of passengers, I myself have witnessed a double decker on the 129 carrying a full load of people. When the 188s are getting turned at Cutty Sark many turn to the 129 to travel beyond Cutty Sark. The 188 isn't exactly the most reliable route either. |
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Post by I-Azusio-I on Dec 15, 2013 20:48:39 GMT
The 129 IS useless! Woolwich Road isn't exactly an area of significance and the only reason the 129 is used is because it's there and a lot less crowded than the 188. Would people miss the 129 if it was withdrawn? NO! No disrespect, but I think that is ignorance. snoggle has stated in a previous post "The 129 carries nearly 800,000 people a year", so clearly the route is not pointless... The Route carries more passengers a day than some of the most unused routes in London... you may think the 129 is not used, but the 129 is certainly especially in the peaks like every other route in North Greenwich. Some passengers actually prefer the 129 over the 188. I have been at in the Greenwich area at various times of the day and I can tell you now. I have seen 129s carrying a fair amount of passengers. I have even seen a Photo of a Travel London 8.9m Enviro 200 rammed with passengers on the 129. I have been at North Greenwich at 5pm & 10pm and seen 129s gaining a fair amount of passengers, I myself have witnessed a double decker on the 129 carrying a full load of people. When the 188s are getting turned at Cutty Sark many turn to the 129 to travel beyond Cutty Sark. The 188 isn't exactly the most reliable route either.
 They just love the long way home, Don't they? 
I agree on 188 not being the most reliable route, that is true. But the Greenwich curtailments are not common as they used to be. Sometimes it's mainly because of traffic in the City or around the Rotherhithe Tunnel area. The Deptford Church Street turn has been popping up recently which I don't know why they have to be curtailed there as there is no bus stand for that turn. The 47, 188 or 199 have to terminate at the "Deptford High Street (towards Greenwich or Lewisham)" bus stop if they are being curtailed to Deptford. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 15, 2013 20:55:52 GMT
The 129 IS useless! Woolwich Road isn't exactly an area of significance and the only reason the 129 is used is because it's there and a lot less crowded than the 188. Would people miss the 129 if it was withdrawn? NO! No disrespect, but I think that is ignorance. snoggle has stated in a previous post "The 129 carries nearly 800,000 people a year", so clearly the route is not pointless... The Route carries more passengers a day than some of the most unused routes in London... you may think the 129 is not used, but the 129 is certainly especially in the peaks like every other route in North Greenwich. Some passengers actually prefer the 129 over the 188. I have been at in the Greenwich area at various times of the day and I can tell you now. I have seen 129s carrying a fair amount of passengers. I have even seen a Photo of a Travel London 8.9m Enviro 200 rammed with passengers on the 129. I have been at North Greenwich at 5pm & 10pm and seen 129s gaining a fair amount of passengers, I myself have witnessed a double decker on the 129 carrying a full load of people. When the 188s are getting turned at Cutty Sark many turn to the 129 to travel beyond Cutty Sark. The 188 isn't exactly the most reliable route either. Just to add to this, and a previous point I made, the public submissions to the Assembly's bus investigation included one from people at Westcombe Hill. They made the point that they could not board peak time 108 or 422 buses to North Greenwich as they fill up at the Royal Standard and don't stop. My point was that the 129 allows people on the peninsula to have a chance of getting on a bus to North Greenwich. You cannot have every route at capacity along the whole length of a route - it's madness if it means people cannot use it. I dare say that the 129 provides some help to people at Westcombe Park too albeit at the bottom of the hill. The locals also pointed out that when Sainsburys moves from Greenwich Peninsula to Charlton Riverside they will not have a bus to the nearest large supermarket in the area. It's an interesting microcosm of the problems affecting all sorts of areas where growing patronage, more houses and changes to local facilities suddenly show that the bus network doesn't work for local people. |
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Post by Jack on Dec 15, 2013 21:17:59 GMT
Route U7: Another route that goes to every single country! It gets a fair amount of passengers but from Hayes Sainsbury's to Uxbridge is only about 10-15 minutes and the U7 just goes round and round the houses just so it can be deemed as a "service". I don't know what the purpose of that route is meant to be and it isn't even frequent! Out of interest, how often do you actually use the U7? If the U7 went the direct way (already served by other routes from Uxbridge) then the route would have no purpose! I have been on the U7 many times packed to the door so not sure how that can be seen as a useless service! |
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Post by Connor on Dec 15, 2013 21:19:18 GMT
Out of the 8 bus routes that serve North Greenwich, in terms of passenger numbers, where does the 129 come in?
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Post by I-Azusio-I on Dec 15, 2013 21:23:32 GMT
Route U7: Another route that goes to every single country! It gets a fair amount of passengers but from Hayes Sainsbury's to Uxbridge is only about 10-15 minutes and the U7 just goes round and round the houses just so it can be deemed as a "service". I don't know what the purpose of that route is meant to be and it isn't even frequent! Out of interest, how often do you actually use the U7? If the U7 went the direct way (already served by other routes from Uxbridge) then the route would have no purpose! I have been on the U7 many times packed to the door so not sure how that can be seen as a useless service! I shouldn't have called the U7 useless but I fail to see how such a route which is used a lot is half-hourly with a PVR of 4! If the route is used a lot by people then the route should be at least every 15 minutes rather than 30 especially if it passes an estate served by only one route. I have only used the U7 once end to end   and it criss-crosses the main roads a lot. |
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Post by vjaska on Dec 15, 2013 21:46:55 GMT
No disrespect, but I think that is ignorance. snoggle has stated in a previous post "The 129 carries nearly 800,000 people a year", so clearly the route is not pointless... The Route carries more passengers a day than some of the most unused routes in London... you may think the 129 is not used, but the 129 is certainly especially in the peaks like every other route in North Greenwich. Some passengers actually prefer the 129 over the 188. I have been at in the Greenwich area at various times of the day and I can tell you now. I have seen 129s carrying a fair amount of passengers. I have even seen a Photo of a Travel London 8.9m Enviro 200 rammed with passengers on the 129. I have been at North Greenwich at 5pm & 10pm and seen 129s gaining a fair amount of passengers, I myself have witnessed a double decker on the 129 carrying a full load of people. When the 188s are getting turned at Cutty Sark many turn to the 129 to travel beyond Cutty Sark. The 188 isn't exactly the most reliable route either.
They just love the long way home, Don't they?
I agree on 188 not being the most reliable route, that is true. But the Greenwich curtailments are not common as they used to be. Sometimes it's mainly because of traffic in the City or around the Rotherhithe Tunnel area. The Deptford Church Street turn has been popping up recently which I don't know why they have to be curtailed there as there is no bus stand for that turn. The 47, 188 or 199 have to terminate at the "Deptford High Street (towards Greenwich or Lewisham)" bus stop if they are being curtailed to Deptford. I don't think its about 'loving to take the long way home' - as I mentioned, getting a 188 from North Greenwich during peaks is very awkward as you are not guaranteed to be able to get on at all which is why I'd take the 129 instead. Both routes get stuck in traffic (188 around the Tunnel Avenue area, 129 on Woolwich Road) so both journeys will take long anyway. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 15, 2013 22:35:02 GMT
Out of interest, how often do you actually use the U7? If the U7 went the direct way (already served by other routes from Uxbridge) then the route would have no purpose! I have been on the U7 many times packed to the door so not sure how that can be seen as a useless service! I shouldn't have called the U7 useless but I fail to see how such a route which is used a lot is half-hourly with a PVR of 4! If the route is used a lot by people then the route should be at least every 15 minutes rather than 30 especially if it passes an estate served by only one route. I have only used the U7 once end to end and it criss-crosses the main roads a lot. If the route was every 15 minutes and the buses were barely half full you'd be calling it useless and a waste of vehicles and fuel. It has to be a case of "horses for courses". Some routes will fill well but still only justify a 30 minute frequency. That's pretty common outside of London - we're spoilt with all these routes running every 10, 12 or 15 minutes. That's mega frequent for a lot of places outside of London! The main issue with half hourly routes in London is making sure that they are NOT so full that people cannot board and thus face a 30 minute wait for the next bus. This is particularly important for wheelchair / buggies. I suspect the U7 might be able to justify a boost to a bus every 20 minutes. The other factor, though, is that as you increase frequencies the service becomes more popular. It's generally when you get up to a bus every 15 mins that ridership can really take off. Therefore improving frequencies might fix the overcrowding problem only for it to come back again as a result of the service being better! |
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] has been looking at the route usage statistics for your "useless" candidates. Surely the point with the 129 is that it links the Peninsula development / shops etc with Greenwich and provides some localised capacity up to the tube station? All the other routes run over much longer distances and are packed to gunwhales in the peaks. If I lived in the housing down from the tube and wanted to use a bus I'd be extremely cross to be unable to get on any buses in the peaks. The 129 provides some "flex" when set against the 132 or the 472. The 129 carries nearly 800,000 people a year - hardly useless for a short route.
They just love the long way home, Don't they? 
and it criss-crosses the main roads a lot.